Marleau has 88 points in 124 playoff games, which is .71 points per game. Regular season he has 766 points in 1035 games, which is .74 points per game. He's also virtually the only Shark who showed up in the past two WCFs.
Thornton has 82 points in 109 playoff games (64 in 74 for the Sharks), which is .75 points per game (.86 with the Sharks). Regular season he has 1001 points in 995 games, which is over 1 point per game.
No such thing as clutch or choke in sports. These are concepts imagined up by simpleton sports fans and been exposed to be false time and time again by actual statistical studies.
I don't buy that. Some players / people tend to perform better under pressure than others, and that has never been falsified by any "statistical studies". This isn't an immutable characteristic that a player/person can't change (this is why people pay for trainers or hypnotists to help them with public speaking anxieties, for example), but it's a real characteristic, not just a simpleton's fiction.
Career ppg in playoffs and regular season (not counting his last season in SJ when he was washed up)
Playoffs: 0.678
Regular: 0.656
Over an 82 game season, that's a 56 vs 54 point pace. Not very significant I'd say
I should have used the argument that he scores 'big goals' like Robert Horry does big baskets. More difficult to find a statistic to support it but for a guy like Claude Lemieux to win the Conn Smythe it tells you something because he sure as heck wouldnt have ever won the Hart. The guy was clutch and anyone who watched the Devils back then knew it.
Steal copy paste from web
- 1995 Conn Smythe winner
- won 4 Stanley Cups with 3 different teams; played a key role each time
- lead NHL in playoff goal-scoring twice and was top 10 in points 3 times, despite usually playing on defensive-minded teams
- 4th all-time in playoff games played
- 8th all-time in playoff goals with 80; more than Mario, Yzerman, Sakic or Jagr among others
- perhaps most impressively, is 3rd all-time in playoff game-winning goals; quintessential clutch performer
Reg Season
- never finished in the top 25 scorers in any season
- never came remotely close to being named to a post-season All-Star team or winning a regular season individual award
"Clutch" and "choker" are primarily fan-invented concepts. Over a large enough sample size, everyone tends to their career averages. The problem is that, unless you are Lidstrom, a player's post-season career is rarely a large enough sample size.
1 question, 1 point.
1. If the problem is sample size, how do you know they tend to career averages? How do you know that the guy who seems to perform better/worse in the playoffs is actually just over/underperforming until you actually GET that larger sample size?
2. Isn't there something to be said about a player who can find that next level for the playoffs? Playoffs do seem to play different from my perspective. Most players are playing harder. This is what they've played for all season. They play through injuries, they're leaving it all on the line now because it's either that or go golfing.
It seems like if you can't keep up with that new change of pace, you're a choker. If you can or maybe even exceed it, you're clutch. Do you assert that there is not "playoff level"?
I will say though, that people often mistake "choker" for "person who plays on a losing team" and "clutch" as "someone who plays on a winning team and made a difference." That unfairly punishes people who do tend to their averages but just happen to lose because they can't win the game all on their own.
Clutch: Danny Briere, Patrik Elias, Jonathan Toews, Jaromir Jagr & Simon Gagne
Not clutch: Jeff Carter, Alex Semin, Joe Thornton, Patrick Marleau & Ryan Miller
You should really specify if you are looking for current players or if you are looking back in history as well. I assumed you meant current players because people on this board (myself included) are going to have much more knowledge of current or recent players, so some of the most clutch players of the past will be forgotten.
sorry, but no. In his entire Flyers playoff career, he's had 2 great series ('04 vs TB, '10 vs. BOS), other than that, he's nothing spectacular. 59pts in 105 games is not "clutch"
I don't care what statistical analysis says. You can clearly tell certain players thrive on pressure and certain players disappear. The game is not just stats.
Can't help but laugh at people listing 3 or more Canucks.
Any hockey player from the last 25 years and you pick the core of the team that won the presidents trophy twice and just last year never trailed in a series en route to 15 wins.
Was it the cup? No.. But I don't think there's much shame in losing to a pretty damn good Bruins team in 7 games.
Anyway, continue with your players picked out of emotion..
I'm glad to see other people acknowledge that "clutch" doesn't exist...
If clutch existed, it means players are purposefully not playing to their potential at all times. You may as well believe in old women who lifted cars to save someone's life. And twilight.
If choking existed, it means a player either:
A) plays significantly below their potential ("not trying"), or
B) Plays their heart out but their maximum output is artificially lowered.
If Boucher, of all goalies, can post 5 consecutive shutouts... Clearly that's not anywhere near his talent level, that's not sustainable. That could happen to anyone. If it could happen to anyone, then it could also, by definition happen at any time..
Can you imagine if that happened in the playoffs? Boucher would be the clutchiest of clutch players.. He'd win a series all by himself, 0 goals. Same with Dupuis' point streak, same with Kesler's play vs Nashville last playoffs, same with Thomas vs Canucks, and the same as Halak against the Caps.
I'm not saying its luck - its the execution of years of training and practice - but if players COULD perform like that, they would do it all the time.
If clutch existed, it means players are purposefully not playing to their potential at all times. You may as well believe in old women who lifted cars to save someone's life. And twilight.
No. It means the adrenaline rush and elevated heart rate in combination with uneasy nerves allows a player to play ABOVE their potential.
Anyone who has ever played a sport knows the feeling I'm talking about. Some people love it, some people hate it.
semin has 30 pts in 38 playoff games, and as displayed today can beast defensively. do people think hes some kind of 100pt player or something???? his playoff play is right about where it always is...good, sometimes great, sometimes not great enough. no more or less.
Can't help but laugh at people listing 3 or more Canucks.
Any hockey player from the last 25 years and you pick the core of the team that won the presidents trophy twice and just last year never trailed in a series en route to 15 wins.
Was it the cup? No.. But I don't think there's much shame in losing to a pretty damn good Bruins team in 7 games.
Anyway, continue with your players picked out of emotion..
I'm glad to see other people acknowledge that "clutch" doesn't exist...
If clutch existed, it means players are purposefully not playing to their potential at all times. You may as well believe in old women who lifted cars to save someone's life. And twilight.
If choking existed, it means a player either:
A) plays significantly below their potential ("not trying"), or
B) Plays their heart out but their maximum output is artificially lowered.
If Boucher, of all goalies, can post 5 consecutive shutouts... Clearly that's not anywhere near his talent level, that's not sustainable. That could happen to anyone. If it could happen to anyone, then it could also, by definition happen at any time..
Can you imagine if that happened in the playoffs? Boucher would be the clutchiest of clutch players.. He'd win a series all by himself, 0 goals. Same with Dupuis' point streak, same with Kesler's play vs Nashville last playoffs, same with Thomas vs Canucks, and the same as Halak against the Caps.
I'm not saying its luck - its the execution of years of training and practice - but if players COULD perform like that, they would do it all the time.
Some people tend to thrive in high pressure situations; others tend to be impaired by them, it's that simple. The terms "clutch" and "choker" are not about effort, as you suggest, but ways of describing players who seem to fall at one end of the spectrum or another, based on past performance.
Any hockey player from the last 25 years and you pick the core of the team that won the presidents trophy twice and just last year never trailed in a series en route to 15 wins.
They trailed when they were down in Game 7. Maybe if it were an overtime Game 7 goal against that lost it and they'd never been behind in a game that was tied
- Claude Lemieux...twice led the playoffs in goals, twice led the playoffs in game winning goals, nearly 1/4 of his total playoff goals were game winners and he was one of the biggest pests there was, drawing a ton of penalties with his gritty nastiness. Won 4 Cups with 3 different teams and a Conn Smythe. 9th all-time in playoff goals scored.
- Joe Sakic...twice led the playoffs in goals and points, twice led the playoffs in game winning goals, won 2 Cups and a Conn Smythe.
- Patrick Roy....4 Cups for 2 teams, twice a Conn Smythe winner, led the playoffs in SO's 4 times. Has a better Save% and GAA than his regular season stats. Tied with Brodeur for most SO's all-time
- Maurice Richard....as good as he was, he turned it up in the playoffs. Led the playoffs in goals scored 5 times. Led in pts twice. Led in PIMs twice. Won 8 Stanley Cups...all this in the original 6.
- Esa Tikkanen...very underrated.....a first class defensive shadow and pest. Scored at .28 goals/gm in the regular season but scored at .39 goals/gm in the playoffs. His 72 goals rank him 14th all-time, 1 behind HoFer Dino Ciccarelli and more than HoFers Trottier, Yzerman, Howe, Nieuwendyk, Savard, Counoyer, Hull, Lemaire, Mullen, Gilmour as well as Forsberg, Recchi, Shanahan, Modano and a host of other "greats". Won 5 Cups with 5 Cups with 2 different teams.
honorable mention:
- Jarri Kurri
- Brett Hull
- Chris Pronger
- Ken Dryden
I don't understand how the concept of a "clutch" player is so difficult to understand.
If there's such thing as a "clutch" play, which I don't think anyone would disagree with, then a "clutch" player is someone who tends to find themselves as part of those "clutch" plays more often than the average NHL player.
So those game-tying goals in the final seconds, the OT goals, the game-changing saves, etc., they're clutch plays. And a clutch player is someone who always seems to be a factor in those clutch plays.
