A player is giving the business multiple times to the Sens best young player. The Sens tough guy goes over and kicks the loving **** out of the Rangers pest and takes a 5 minute major.
Oilers and whoever...regular season...oilers 29th to 30th overall...
Other teams tough guys give the business to our young skilled guys (clean hits or not) and the oilers coaches leash our tough guys and don't want them to take a 5 minute major because we might lose a meangingless game.
And this has gone on all the way back to the MacT era.
And we wonder why teams beat the **** out of our young players....team toughness indeed.
watching the Sens and the Rangers kick the crap physically out of each other in game 2 got me to thinking that if either team was playing the Oilers, half our team would probably be injured by now. the Sens beefed up with Neil, Carkner and Konopka in an already large lineup and it seemed to work.
Despite how you spin it, this team isn't tough. I have serious doubts a team with Sam Gagner as the 2C can ever make the playoffs, let along play against someone like St Louis or Nashville. Our 3rd line is pretty gritty, but still soft. We don't have a single rough and tumble centre on the team, Lander is the closest one but he's not playing yet.
But Florida can make it with Stephen Weiss as their top center? Boston can win the Cup with David Krejci as their top center?
But Florida can make it with Stephen Weiss as their top center? Boston can win the Cup with David Krejci as their top center?
Every damn thread. . .
David Krejci is one of the better two-way C in the NHL. Comparing him to Gagner is laughable. And with Bergeron, Boston basically had two first line C.
David Krejci is one of the better two-way C in the NHL. Comparing him to Gagner is laughable. And with Bergeron, Boston basically had two first line C.
I was waiting for the response that completely missed the point. Wasn't long coming.
Where did I compare Gagner to Krejci? I was responding to a post (in a thread about team tougness) saying that we probably couldn't make the playoffs with Gagner as 2C... which is absurd since Boston won the Cup with two small centers, and Florida made it in with a first-line center comparable to Gagner.
Trading Gagner won't solve the toughness issue, just like it won't improve the second line or cure cancer like is commonly believed around here.
David Krejci is one of the better two-way C in the NHL. Comparing him to Gagner is laughable. And with Bergeron, Boston basically had two first line C.
i'm still hearing chatter on the radio about Gagner being traded either at the draft of during the summer....get used to it, it's not goin' nowhere until there is either a trade or he re-signs.
I was waiting for the response that completely missed the point. Wasn't long coming.
Where did I compare Gagner to Krejci? I was responding to a post (in a thread about team tougness) saying that we probably couldn't make the playoffs with Gagner as 2C... which is absurd since Boston won the Cup with two small centers, and Florida made it in with a first-line center comparable to Gagner.
Trading Gagner won't solve the toughness issue, just like it won't improve the second line or cure cancer like is commonly believed around here.
How does Boston winning the Cup with two C who aren't overly big and both miles better than Gagner mean we should be confident in our ability to make the playoffs with him? I don't think those C are at all comparable to Gagner. While not huge, Bergeron is still considerably bigger than Gagner, and both he and Krejci are much more physical and difficult to play against.
I do agree that just trading Gagner for the sake of it isn't going to improve anything.
How does Boston winning the Cup with two C who aren't overly big and both miles better than Gagner mean we should be confident in our ability to make the playoffs with him? I don't think those C are at all comparable to Gagner. While not huge, Bergeron is still considerably bigger than Gagner, and both he and Krejci are much more physical and difficult to play against.
I do agree that just trading Gagner for the sake of it isn't going to improve anything.
with our top scorers like RNH, Hall, Eberle, Gagner and Hemsky all not being the biggest, and in order to get bigger up front, Gagner might be the "in order to get quality, you have to give quality" type of player you have to give up.
with our top scorers like RNH, Hall, Eberle, Gagner and Hemsky all not being the biggest, and in order to get bigger up front, Gagner might be the "in order to get quality, you have to give quality" type of player you have to give up.
Oh for sure. We need a Lucic and a Hartnell to round out the top 6, Gagner and possibly Hemsky will be replaced in time.
A player is giving the business multiple times to the Sens best young player. The Sens tough guy goes over and kicks the loving **** out of the Rangers pest and takes a 5 minute major.
Oilers and whoever...regular season...oilers 29th to 30th overall...
Other teams tough guys give the business to our young skilled guys (clean hits or not) and the oilers coaches leash our tough guys and don't want them to take a 5 minute major because we might lose a meangingless game.
And this has gone on all the way back to the MacT era.
And we wonder why teams beat the **** out of our young players....team toughness indeed.
How many games will the Oil lose because of taking a 5 minute penalty? How many games have the Oil lost (and will continue to lose) because no one fears them?
It goes far beyond what beerfish stated, or the others here so far.
Almost without fail, when any of our players acted aggressively they were 'rewarded' with limited ice time.
it's not even about payback, but the message renney sends that he won't tolerate physical play. The example is set, and everyone shies away from aggressive play.
When you pay passively you become a target. Not just once in a while, but every shift of every game.
We get a tonne of injuries because we assume the role of punching bag.
Goes back to MacT days as well.
Anyone remember the time Hemsky got run and Penner fought the guy who ran him? Penner ended up getting a totally BS instigator and 10 min misconduct (I'm 90% sure the other guy's gloves were off first) and MacT stapled him to the bench for the rest of the game. Then he said that Penner had cold legs and that's why he didn't put him out.
So, the one time our guys stand up for each other, they get a clear message from the coach not to. And we wonder why they don't and a guy like Gagner has to take a bullet from Beauchemin, who thankfully realized what Sam was doing and didn't kill him...
Pure speculation...do you have any substantial evidence to back this up?
I just said in another thread, comments by peckham after he had sat out for a bunch of games late in the season after taking some penalties. First thing out of his mouth was that you can't be taking major penalties and costing yoursleves games. Put two and two together.
When we got eager in the 1st place a few of us agreed that we would have to put up with the od brain dead dumb penalty by him because that is what he brings. Before very long on the team he was doing none of the things he did with other teams.
I was waiting for the response that completely missed the point. Wasn't long coming.
Where did I compare Gagner to Krejci? I was responding to a post (in a thread about team tougness) saying that we probably couldn't make the playoffs with Gagner as 2C... which is absurd since Boston won the Cup with two small centers, and Florida made it in with a first-line center comparable to Gagner.
Trading Gagner won't solve the toughness issue, just like it won't improve the second line or cure cancer like is commonly believed around here.
You got to start somewhere and Gagner is the obvious place to do it.
Dont go comparing us to Boston and then chide someone for missing the point.
Where is our Chara, Horton, Campbell, Lucic, Thorton or Boychuk?
As for Florida, is that what we are aspiring to be?
Anyone remember the time Hemsky got run and Penner fought the guy who ran him? Penner ended up getting a totally BS instigator and 10 min misconduct (I'm 90% sure the other guy's gloves were off first) and MacT stapled him to the bench for the rest of the game. Then he said that Penner had cold legs and that's why he didn't put him out.
So, the one time our guys stand up for each other, they get a clear message from the coach not to. And we wonder why they don't and a guy like Gagner has to take a bullet from Beauchemin, who thankfully realized what Sam was doing and didn't kill him...
I remember that Penner incident very clearly. MacT was as bad as Renney for discouraging all forms of physical play and violence.
Both these coaches have/had no issue with dumb and lazy hooking and holding penalties taken by plugs like a Horcoff or Moreau, but god forbid a Penner or Peckham stand up for a teammate and get a roughing call.
Im saying the league is broken and the number of cheap dirty plays like Hagelin's last night are up, because they likely wont have to face the music for their actions. Saying the threat of physical violence by someone much bigger and tougher than you isnt a deterrent is wrong.
Anyone that has played the game knows this.
Why do you think Glen Sather has always had the toughest guys on his team? Was Dave Semenko on the team because of his stickhandling? Is Glen Sather a moron?
We aren't debating about whether or not this is the way things should be, or the way things used to be. In another day and age maybe this sort of thing doesn't work. And maybe things are broken as they are now in the league, I don't know. All I do know is that the Dave Semenkos Dave Browns, and Bob Properts of the world are not effective in today's NHL. There could be any number of reasons for that but they are irrelevant because whatever those reasons are they are still here.
There seems to be two arguments going on here. The first that this team needs more grit throughout its lineup. That's fine, I think everyone can agree with that. The second that this team needs a coach who is going to allow us to have some player who is bigger and meaner than everyone go out there and beat the crap out of anyone who dares to throw a hit at one of our skill players under the hope that it will prevent our team getting run... that doesn't work.
IMO, its not about the deterent aspect (because I agree with you). Its about the internal psychology of your own team; standing up for yourself and all the team-building elements that go along with that. Not passively sitting back while your top guys get helped off the ice by the trainer.
You're right. Some teams have stood up for themselves and not been successful. But I don't think any team has ever been a passive punching bag and BEEN successful.
thank you. there is more to it then simple t-t for tat or policing.
I'm getting so sick of the wimpy, dimpy crowd trying to make hockey a soft, beautiful game. its a game for alpha males. for those people who dislike the violence and injuries that are a part of hockey and want only finesse and tactics, there is a game for you, it's called Soccer.
Eager stated early in the season that he thought he deserved a top-6 scoring role. I don't think he wanted to be a grinder this year.
I don't remember that, but when he was on his game, it showed his offensive upside. I would like to see his game with bigger minutes. Pretty sure I'm in the minority. If he was there & not on the bench as much he could be that deterant throughout the game, and still get some offence.
We aren't debating about whether or not this is the way things should be, or the way things used to be. In another day and age maybe this sort of thing doesn't work. And maybe things are broken as they are now in the league, I don't know. All I do know is that the Dave Semenkos Dave Browns, and Bob Properts of the world are not effective in today's NHL. There could be any number of reasons for that but they are irrelevant because whatever those reasons are they are still here.
There seems to be two arguments going on here. The first that this team needs more grit throughout its lineup. That's fine, I think everyone can agree with that. The second that this team needs a coach who is going to allow us to have some player who is bigger and meaner than everyone go out there and beat the crap out of anyone who dares to throw a hit at one of our skill players under the hope that it will prevent our team getting run... that doesn't work.
It doesnt work for us because we dont have the players who are willing or capable and our coach doesnt seem to care, which is a HUGE problem.
For evidence as to whether or not "this" works today, I would suggest looking back to last year when the Islanders got punked by the Penguins, and Dipietro got KO'd by Johnson. The Penguins were laughing at the Islanders.
Well, they didnt laugh long and the certainly didnt laugh last as the Islanders beat them like a red headed step child the next game they got together. And the one after that too I believe. That was pretty much the end of the Islanders being anyone's ***** and they went on to end the season with a huge run of victories as the team came together, all of them playing six inches taller and forty lbs heavier.
We have two options going forward.
A. We take it and be the nail.
B. We dish it out and be the hammer.
I would like to see "B", before Hall, Eberle, Hopkins, or Yakupov have to go in for more surgery.
We aren't debating about whether or not this is the way things should be, or the way things used to be. In another day and age maybe this sort of thing doesn't work. And maybe things are broken as they are now in the league, I don't know. All I do know is that the Dave Semenkos Dave Browns, and Bob Properts of the world are not effective in today's NHL. There could be any number of reasons for that but they are irrelevant because whatever those reasons are they are still here.
There seems to be two arguments going on here. The first that this team needs more grit throughout its lineup. That's fine, I think everyone can agree with that. The second that this team needs a coach who is going to allow us to have some player who is bigger and meaner than everyone go out there and beat the crap out of anyone who dares to throw a hit at one of our skill players under the hope that it will prevent our team getting run... that doesn't work.
Not just throwing a hit?? How a out the dirty stick work & cheap shots? There is a. Fine line of course. There is also a breaking point. The NHL has totally blown the enforcement of this part.
The good teams figured that enuf is enuf.
It doesnt work for us because we dont have the players who are willing or capable and our coach doesnt seem to care, which is a HUGE problem.
For evidence as to whether or not "this" works today, I would suggest looking back to last year when the Islanders got punked by the Penguins, and Dipietro got KO'd by Johnson. The Penguins were laughing at the Islanders.
Well, they didnt laugh long and the certainly didnt laugh last as the Islanders beat them like a red headed step child the next game they got together. And the one after that too I believe. That was pretty much the end of the Islanders being anyone's ***** and they went on to end the season with a huge run of victories as the team came together, all of them playing six inches taller and forty lbs heavier.
We have two options going forward.
A. We take it and be the nail.
B. We dish it out and be the hammer.
I would like to see "B", before Hall, Eberle, Hopkins, or Yakupov have to go in for more surgery.
Good for the Islanders, they went out and gooned it up for a couple games. They finished the season 11-10-5 after that game, hardly a miraculous run. They still were one of the worst teams in the league and still are. Oh and they have lost 5 of the 7 games against the Penguins since that game. They also were one of the teams in the league that fought the least this year.
The Islanders were a joke before, during and after. Just like the Oilers. Toughness has nothing to do with it. Being a ****** hockey team does.
Just one other point considering what is going on in the Flyers/Penguins game. Call me a *****, a wimp, whatever I don't care. But I don't want to see someone on our team potentially ruin someones career. Brayden Schenn threw a huge crushing check and Aaron Asham cross checked him in the face in retaliation. I don't want someone on our team doing that to someone. Schenn's a 20 year old kid who has already had concussion problems in his career and he might have just got another one after that cross check. It's gross. I don't have the stomach for it.
We will see a bunch of softish, unphysical players getting slaughtered by playoff built, mentally & physically fortified opponents.
There is a reason why we can't make the playoffs:
We aren't built for the playoffs.
Your fooling yourself if you think we would actually be better served playing a series against anyone.
If we can't stand up for ourselves in the regular season why would it be different when the game gets even tougher/more physical? I agree with you, I don't see guys like Gagner, Paajarvi, Hemsky, Eberle, etc. turning into beasts when the playoffs hit. I could see Hall, RNH, and Yakupov up the physical play, Eberle as well to a point, but we need some guys that can elevate their games to play extra physical when the play calls for it.
__________________ Treat Others As You Would Like To Be Treated
Just one other point considering what is going on in the Flyers/Penguins game. Call me a *****, a wimp, whatever I don't care. But I don't want to see someone on our team potentially ruin someones career. Brayden Schenn threw a huge crushing check and Aaron Asham cross checked him in the face in retaliation. I don't want someone on our team doing that to someone. Schenn's a 20 year old kid who has already had concussion problems in his career and he might have just got another one after that cross check. It's gross. I don't have the stomach for it.
But you would be fine if Asham did that to taylor hall if he made that hit because we can't be doing anything at all that might give the other team pause for thought and it won't do any good anyway. None of this stuff works in one game in a playoff series but if over the course of a couple years you show every team in the league that we are not to be **** with it does help.
Just one other point considering what is going on in the Flyers/Penguins game. Call me a *****, a wimp, whatever I don't care. But I don't want to see someone on our team potentially ruin someones career. Brayden Schenn threw a huge crushing check and Aaron Asham cross checked him in the face in retaliation. I don't want someone on our team doing that to someone. Schenn's a 20 year old kid who has already had concussion problems in his career and he might have just got another one after that cross check. It's gross. I don't have the stomach for it.
Asham crossed the line there, however you have to fight fire with fire, if someone did that to one of our guys, say Asham is we play Pitt, then I'd want to see Hordi do the same or worse to one of Pitts guys.
Every damn thread. . .
