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MAF has a Save% under .900 4 straight series

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Old
04-29-2012, 10:49 AM
  #426
Dupree13
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Really? I mean, based on what evidence? He still has these periodic meltdowns just like he did then. The one he just had was as bad as he's ever had.

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04-29-2012, 11:05 AM
  #427
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The problem with Fleury and the Penguins is not that Fleury is a worthless goaltender, and probably not so much with the individual players as some people here seem to think.
Put Fleury on a team that clogs up the middle and lets 40 shots get through on goal every game and he would probably put up 93%+ with very low GA.

The simple fact is that most goalies thrive on shots and only get better the more they get (up to a certain point). A few examples: Halak with Canadiens vs Pens 40+ and also in Olympics vs Sweden, Smith in Pho 40+, Anderson in Colorado 40+, Jonas Hiller in Olympics and 2009 playoffs 40+, Holtby vs Boston 40+.

The point i'm trying to make is that even previously mediocre goalies like: Elliot, Smith and Halak, can become great goalies with the right system.

Pittsburgh is on the other extreme of this every year in the playoffs, when are always allowing the least amount of shots against. And they do this by not letting the other get a shot on goal for periods of 5-10 minutes. This throws goalies of their rhytm, simple as that.

Now, MAF is probably not among the elite goaltenders of the league, but it would help him a lot if he didn't have to stand cold for 10 minutes before getting a breakaway against.
I'm not saying that Pittsburgh gives up the most good scoring chances in the league because that is not true. They are however giving up the least low quality scoring chances of all the teams i can think of.

I put a lot of the blame on Bylsma.

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04-29-2012, 11:25 AM
  #428
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
He's infinitely better mentally now though than he was in his younger years.
Is he? Prior to this playoffs I would have said yes, but where is the evidence? The last 3 playoffs, he has had stretches where he flat out sucks. Last year was not on him but Montreal series he flat out sucked and this was the worst series I can remember for a starting goaltender in quite a while. He gets rattled really easily.

My problem with Fleury is that his lows are lower than most starting goalies in the league (except for Mason or Bryz). The positive is that his highs are higher than most goalies in the league. He has the talent and the athleticism to be a consistent top 5 goalie in the league. But, at some point, you have to consistently produce in the playoffs. He hasn't done that since we won the Cup.

The question for me going forward is this: Should we continue to pay for an elite goaltender that's only elite sometimes and brutal other times? Or, conversely, should we save some cap space and get a solid, consistent starter (whose high's aren't near Fleury's but who doesn't **** the bed nearly as often) and surround that goalie with an elite defense?

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04-29-2012, 11:29 AM
  #429
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Originally Posted by PerryPW View Post
The problem with Fleury and the Penguins is not that Fleury is a worthless goaltender, and probably not so much with the individual players as some people here seem to think.
Put Fleury on a team that clogs up the middle and lets 40 shots get through on goal every game and he would probably put up 93%+ with very low GA.

The simple fact is that most goalies thrive on shots and only get better the more they get (up to a certain point). A few examples: Halak with Canadiens vs Pens 40+ and also in Olympics vs Sweden, Smith in Pho 40+, Anderson in Colorado 40+, Jonas Hiller in Olympics and 2009 playoffs 40+, Holtby vs Boston 40+.

The point i'm trying to make is that even previously mediocre goalies like: Elliot, Smith and Halak, can become great goalies with the right system.

Pittsburgh is on the other extreme of this every year in the playoffs, when are always allowing the least amount of shots against. And they do this by not letting the other get a shot on goal for periods of 5-10 minutes. This throws goalies of their rhytm, simple as that.

Now, MAF is probably not among the elite goaltenders of the league, but it would help him a lot if he didn't have to stand cold for 10 minutes before getting a breakaway against.
I'm not saying that Pittsburgh gives up the most good scoring chances in the league because that is not true. They are however giving up the least low quality scoring chances of all the teams i can think of.

I put a lot of the blame on Bylsma.
Fair except when Fleury lets in garbage goals like he continually did in this series. It's not like all the goals were breakaways or odd man rushes, point blank chances, etc. He let in a lot of weak goals from the outside.

And it's not like these other teams are letting their goalies face more shots intentionally. We definitely need to shore things up defensively and decrease the point blank chances, but a lot of it is on Fleury.

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04-29-2012, 11:57 AM
  #430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerryPW View Post
I put a lot of the blame on Bylsma.
So wait, you're blaming Dan for NOT letting the other team shoot more? That's a bit.... different.

Fleury should be capable of saving 19 out of 20 or 39 out of 40. Not 15 or 16 out of 20 or whatever may have been the case a couple times this year. I'm as big of a Fleury fan as there is, and have coached goalies before and quite simply the playoffs that he has had the last few years are unacceptable and I have a feeling the patience this organization has with him, may be getting a little thin.

Fleury should have been able to stop a lot of the shots that he let in and to fault a system or the defensemen around him, just isn't right. His rebound control throughout the series was negligible, he was off his angles quite a bit, and he let in way too many softies. He needs to get his playoff performance's to match his regular season play or else it doesn't matter who the Pens have in net.


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04-29-2012, 12:01 PM
  #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
The question for me going forward is this: Should we continue to pay for an elite goaltender that's only elite sometimes and brutal other times? Or, conversely, should we save some cap space and get a solid, consistent starter (whose high's aren't near Fleury's but who doesn't **** the bed nearly as often) and surround that goalie with an elite defense?
The couple of million you'll save between Fleury and someone who is a "solid, consistent starter" won't be much. Certainly, not enough to go out and get a solid defenseman or two that would be able to stifle teams night in and night out.

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04-29-2012, 12:04 PM
  #432
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Really? I mean, based on what evidence? He still has these periodic meltdowns just like he did then. The one he just had was as bad as he's ever had.
There isn't any. Just like there isn't any evidence that he's ever been anything more than an average/slightly above average goalie. The Fleury homers like to come down on stats, but at least it's something. If Fleury is as great as some of them claim, where is the evidence? Where are the elite numbers and the Vezina nominations? Where are the playoff series where he outperformed the opposing goalie(sorry, one great playoff run in '08 isn't enough)? I mean, there's nothing tangible. It's just this "he faces tougher shots!!!" fantasy theory. Which is complete bs to anyone that has simply watched some of the other series this year.

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04-29-2012, 12:06 PM
  #433
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I've wondered if trading Marc-Andre Fluery would confuse our French-Canadien forwards.

If the chance presents itself, I'd deal him without question. I'd bring someone else in that's better and trade away his cap space. The problem is finding a half decent goalie.

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04-29-2012, 12:07 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by Tafkak View Post
The couple of million you'll save between Fleury and someone who is a "solid, consistent starter" won't be much. Certainly, not enough to go out and get a solid defenseman or two that would be able to stifle teams night in and night out.
I don't disagree. I'm just questioning whether spending 5+ million on a starter like Fleury is really worth it, given his poor play in the playoffs over the last 3 seasons.

I should mention that I don't advocate trading Fleury. There really isn't anyone better out there that's proven. I'm just stating my concerns going forward and I think that's the question Shero and Co. need to ask themselves. My preference is to get a back-up capable of taking over the number 1 job should Fleury **** the bed again.

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04-29-2012, 12:10 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Is he? Prior to this playoffs I would have said yes, but where is the evidence? The last 3 playoffs, he has had stretches where he flat out sucks. Last year was not on him but Montreal series he flat out sucked and this was the worst series I can remember for a starting goaltender in quite a while. He gets rattled really easily.

My problem with Fleury is that his lows are lower than most starting goalies in the league (except for Mason or Bryz). The positive is that his highs are higher than most goalies in the league. He has the talent and the athleticism to be a consistent top 5 goalie in the league. But, at some point, you have to consistently produce in the playoffs. He hasn't done that since we won the Cup.

The question for me going forward is this: Should we continue to pay for an elite goaltender that's only elite sometimes and brutal other times? Or, conversely, should we save some cap space and get a solid, consistent starter (whose high's aren't near Fleury's but who doesn't **** the bed nearly as often) and surround that goalie with an elite defense?
If you watched him over the course of the last 2 years v. his first 5 or 6 in the league...yeah, he is. When he'd give up a bad goal in his early years, it'd seemingly haunt him forever, and it'd snowball. That doesn't happen as frequently anymore.

Also, I think people using the last 2 or 3 playoff series are sort of short sighted (especially the TB series, where I don't think he played that terrible). He is a goaltender who has shown the ability to lead us through the playoffs. He has done it twice, and it's not like we were winning in spite of him. He played some unbelievable hockey through those years, and I'm sure everyone could bring up a series or three where Fleury was a difference maker. It's not like a guy like Luongo who has never really lead his team anywhere, and even the run they made to the Cup, he was not good at all.

These last 2 seasons, he has carried the team for stretches. This is the first time in his career where he was playing like a franchise netminder. He was keeping us in game we didn't deserve to be in, and even won us a few. He hasn't been letting in softies with even close to the frequency he would even in our Cup runs.

He has made long strides in his mental game.

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04-29-2012, 12:12 PM
  #436
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if it makes anyone feel any better about MAF's contract, Carey Price has very similar numbers statistically (both regular season and playoffs) and will likely command a 5-6 million dollar salary per year.

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04-29-2012, 12:17 PM
  #437
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I'll also add, I think people too quickly use goaltending statistics and draw conclusions. I think goalie statistics should be taken with a big grain of salt, and a majority of people cannot use them in proper context. If a team is hanging the guy out to dry and giving the opposition glorious chances, a guys stats are going to suffer. I think what we're seeing is exactly that with Fleury since DB has taken over. You can't play a wide opened offensive style in the playoffs. The entire 5 man unit has to play solid defensively. We haven't played a great team oriented defensive game in the playoffs since our Cup years, and aside from this year, we haven't been healthy through the playoffs since then.

Some of the mental lapses this team made in the playoffs are rookie ****. The turnovers in the neutral zone and at the blueline, the missed assignments in the defensive zone (that OT goal by Voracek where both Staal and Letang were standing in front of the net covering absolutely no one comes to mind), our inability to get pucks deep and grind teams down, along with flat out carelessness with the puck, and our inability to stop teams on the powerplay sunk this team.

The difference in the Philly season was special teams. A difference maker in Tampa Bay was special teams. You cannot let those teams get on the powerplay because they will kill you. This last series, it was dead even at even strength.

That's all I'm saying.

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04-29-2012, 12:17 PM
  #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
I don't disagree. I'm just questioning whether spending 5+ million on a starter like Fleury is really worth it, given his poor play in the playoffs over the last 3 seasons.

I should mention that I don't advocate trading Fleury. There really isn't anyone better out there that's proven. I'm just stating my concerns going forward and I think that's the question Shero and Co. need to ask themselves. My preference is to get a back-up capable of taking over the number 1 job should Fleury **** the bed again.
Absolutely, it's just going to be difficult to find. As others have stated before, I wouldn't mind going after Harding from Minnesota or Lindback from Nashville. I also would like to see the Pens pursue a goalie in the draft, there's some good talent there like Subban (ha!) or Jake Paterson (plays for Saginaw and had a really solid playoff run). I know the draft can be a crapshoot at times for goalies but our cupboards are bare, there is no-one down the line who is a legitimate or even has a shot at starting goalie for us.

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04-29-2012, 12:42 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
I'll also add, I think people too quickly use goaltending statistics and draw conclusions. I think goalie statistics should be taken with a big grain of salt, and a majority of people cannot use them in proper context. If a team is hanging the guy out to dry and giving the opposition glorious chances, a guys stats are going to suffer. I think what we're seeing is exactly that with Fleury since DB has taken over. You can't play a wide opened offensive style in the playoffs. The entire 5 man unit has to play solid defensively. We haven't played a great team oriented defensive game in the playoffs since our Cup years, and aside from this year, we haven't been healthy through the playoffs since then.

Some of the mental lapses this team made in the playoffs are rookie ****. The turnovers in the neutral zone and at the blueline, the missed assignments in the defensive zone (that OT goal by Voracek where both Staal and Letang were standing in front of the net covering absolutely no one comes to mind), our inability to get pucks deep and grind teams down, along with flat out carelessness with the puck, and our inability to stop teams on the powerplay sunk this team.

The difference in the Philly season was special teams. A difference maker in Tampa Bay was special teams. You cannot let those teams get on the powerplay because they will kill you. This last series, it was dead even at even strength.

That's all I'm saying.
Typically, I would agree with you. Goalie stats can be extremely misleading. And if MAF's numbers were only mediocre for the last couple seasons, I would say you have a good point. But the thing is, this isn't a one or two year trend. His numbers have been mediocre for his entire career(under two different coaches) with the exception of one season where he only played 40 games. So are you saying that he's been hung out to dry for his entire career now?

Honestly, I really like MAF and want to see the guy be a top tier goalie in the league, but it just hasn't happened. Every year a new excuse gets trotted out, and every year it starts to seem a little more silly. His individual abilities have been greatly exaggerated because of his gaudy win totals and the occasional acrobatic save. But the occasional acrobatic save doesn't mean much when you don't always make the routine saves. As for the win totals, I'd be willing to bet that almost any goalie will rack up some wins playing behind the two best players in the world.

To be clear, I'm not saying the Pens have to trade him right this second or anything. I always say he's an average goalie, not a bad one. Detroit is a prime example of how simply adequate goaltending can be enough to get you a cup. Hell, we proved it in '09. But that's only if steps are taken to shelter the goalie a little more. Whether that means major system changes, trading dmen or getting a better backup, I don't know. But it's time for the Pens to wake up and stop pretending their goaltender is more than he really is.

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04-29-2012, 12:43 PM
  #440
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If you watched him over the course of the last 2 years v. his first 5 or 6 in the league...yeah, he is. When he'd give up a bad goal in his early years, it'd seemingly haunt him forever, and it'd snowball. That doesn't happen as frequently anymore.

Also, I think people using the last 2 or 3 playoff series are sort of short sighted (especially the TB series, where I don't think he played that terrible). He is a goaltender who has shown the ability to lead us through the playoffs. He has done it twice, and it's not like we were winning in spite of him. He played some unbelievable hockey through those years, and I'm sure everyone could bring up a series or three where Fleury was a difference maker. It's not like a guy like Luongo who has never really lead his team anywhere, and even the run they made to the Cup, he was not good at all.

These last 2 seasons, he has carried the team for stretches. This is the first time in his career where he was playing like a franchise netminder. He was keeping us in game we didn't deserve to be in, and even won us a few. He hasn't been letting in softies with even close to the frequency he would even in our Cup runs.

He has made long strides in his mental game.
See, I'd argue that point right there. The team's had to bail him out far more often than vice versa.

Honestly, after acquiring Hossa in '08, who in the East was going to stop us? The rest of the Conference was garbage, and our first round against Ottawa (who would have missed the playoffs had the regular season been a week longer) was the perfect way to kick things off. Fleury played fine, but come on, goaltending (good or bad) was hardly an issue in '08. The only Fleury memories I have from that run was game 5 against Detroit, where he was spectacular. I also remember him allowing a couple of horrendous goals in that Final too, especially the Hudler goal in game 4 and those two killers in game 6, especially the Zetterberg goal.

In '09, I won't argue against him stealing game 4 that allowed the Pens the 3-1 series lead. He was tremendous that game, and he was also great AFTER the Pens came back from that 3-0 deficit to make it 4-3 in game 6.

However, you can't sit there and tell me the team didn't bail him out big time against Washington. I know he made the big save on Ovie in game 7, but he also allowed two first shot goals (again) at home in games 3 and 4 where we HAD to win, and the team bailed him out.

I'll never take games 6 and 7 from him in the Final. We don't win those two games were it not for him, but you can't just take that and translate it into an entire playoff run where he was simply "good", and nothing more.

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04-29-2012, 12:44 PM
  #441
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I'll also add, I think people too quickly use goaltending statistics and draw conclusions. I think goalie statistics should be taken with a big grain of salt, and a majority of people cannot use them in proper context. If a team is hanging the guy out to dry and giving the opposition glorious chances, a guys stats are going to suffer. I think what we're seeing is exactly that with Fleury since DB has taken over. You can't play a wide opened offensive style in the playoffs. The entire 5 man unit has to play solid defensively. We haven't played a great team oriented defensive game in the playoffs since our Cup years, and aside from this year, we haven't been healthy through the playoffs since then.

Some of the mental lapses this team made in the playoffs are rookie ****. The turnovers in the neutral zone and at the blueline, the missed assignments in the defensive zone (that OT goal by Voracek where both Staal and Letang were standing in front of the net covering absolutely no one comes to mind), our inability to get pucks deep and grind teams down, along with flat out carelessness with the puck, and our inability to stop teams on the powerplay sunk this team.

The difference in the Philly season was special teams. A difference maker in Tampa Bay was special teams. You cannot let those teams get on the powerplay because they will kill you. This last series, it was dead even at even strength.

That's all I'm saying.
I agree 100% but none of that excuses Fleury for his awful play. The problems certainly aren't all on Fleury, but he has still been below average for the majority of the last 3 post seasons (and at times awful). We aren't paying for a below average goaltender.

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04-29-2012, 01:24 PM
  #442
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In 09-10 i think there was some amazing stat of goals allowed in the first shot of the game by Maf. Got to find it.

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04-29-2012, 01:51 PM
  #443
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Fair except when Fleury lets in garbage goals like he continually did in this series. It's not like all the goals were breakaways or odd man rushes, point blank chances, etc. He let in a lot of weak goals from the outside.

And it's not like these other teams are letting their goalies face more shots intentionally. We definitely need to shore things up defensively and decrease the point blank chances, but a lot of it is on Fleury.
Yes this playoff series he was completely terrible. But what I mean to say is that consistently playing in a system like this will only make the goaltender worse by every year that goes by. If Pittsburgh would get a new starting goaltender, I'm sure he would do much better than MAF the first few seasons, but that goalie would get more and more off his game by every season.
I think this is what has happened to Fleury. I believe he has mentally gotten fed up with playing this kind of system. Because even though he has played some terrible games the last few playoffs, he has always tried to battle back. This year it looked like he had given up.

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04-29-2012, 02:00 PM
  #444
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So wait, you're blaming Dan for NOT letting the other team shoot more? That's a bit.... different.

Fleury should be capable of saving 19 out of 20 or 39 out of 40. Not 15 or 16 out of 20 or whatever may have been the case a couple times this year. I'm as big of a Fleury fan as there is, and have coached goalies before and quite simply the playoffs that he has had the last few years are unacceptable and I have a feeling the patience this organization has with him, may be getting a little thin.

Fleury should have been able to stop a lot of the shots that he let in and to fault a system or the defensemen around him, just isn't right. His rebound control throughout the series was negligible, he was off his angles quite a bit, and he let in way too many softies. He needs to get his playoff performance's to match his regular season play or else it doesn't matter who the Pens have in net.
I'm putting a lot of the blame on Bylsma because he doesn't adjust to other team, they adjust to Pittsburgh. Pens seem to be playing great against most teams, except for those that counter attack and do it quickly. Because when Pens play on the offensive side 40 mins/game, they are going to be shooting a lot on the other goalie to keep him warm. But they all too often seem to over-commit and stay too late in their shifts, which leads to a lot of odd man rushes against a cold Fleury that is playing like crap.

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04-29-2012, 04:20 PM
  #445
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Just watching this Jersey game and Brodeur is able to kibosh Philly's possession with his stick skills. It reminded me what a handicap Fleury's horrid puck handling skills can be at times.

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04-30-2012, 11:16 AM
  #446
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I'd be thrilled to move on without MAF, the question is still who are we gonna get? Hopefully there is some shero magic in that regard, because Fleury is a soft, soft goalie.

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04-30-2012, 11:45 AM
  #447
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I'm putting a lot of the blame on Bylsma because he doesn't adjust to other team, they adjust to Pittsburgh. Pens seem to be playing great against most teams, except for those that counter attack and do it quickly. Because when Pens play on the offensive side 40 mins/game, they are going to be shooting a lot on the other goalie to keep him warm. But they all too often seem to over-commit and stay too late in their shifts, which leads to a lot of odd man rushes against a cold Fleury that is playing like crap.
During the three full seasons that "Disco Dan" has been the coach all you hear about is what the Pens are going to do. He acts like the other team never figures into his equation for winning the games. You've seen team collapses by the Pens and individual players just tear them apart and this has to be related to this Bylsma attitude.

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04-30-2012, 12:41 PM
  #448
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If he underwhelms again next postseason, I'll stop defending him. This series was on the team as much as him.

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04-30-2012, 05:43 PM
  #449
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I can't think of a worse goaltending display from the playoffs at the top of my head... sure the team gave the opponent prime opportunities, but a good NHL goalie saves a lot of those.

I realize Philly's PP was lethal, but some of those goals were so obvious... clone plays from minutes before and still failed.

That Talbot SH... probably one of if not the worst goal I've ever seen in the playoffs. BRUTAL

I loved MAF during his 2 cup runs, saw him struggle a bit but thought that consistency was building with the way the last 2 seasons went. but when you look at the last 4 playoff series... what happened.

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04-30-2012, 06:41 PM
  #450
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I can't think of a worse goaltending display from the playoffs at the top of my head... sure the team gave the opponent prime opportunities, but a good NHL goalie saves a lot of those.

I realize Philly's PP was lethal, but some of those goals were so obvious... clone plays from minutes before and still failed.

That Talbot SH... probably one of if not the worst goal I've ever seen in the playoffs. BRUTAL

I loved MAF during his 2 cup runs, saw him struggle a bit but thought that consistency was building with the way the last 2 seasons went. but when you look at the last 4 playoff series... what happened.
I actually feel he has gotten less consistent and more fragile mentally the last few seasons. But he has put up better numbers.
I think it all started when he came back from the olympics. If I remember correctly he was playing excellent hockey before that, but after he had practised with Brodeur and Luongo his game went downhill, culminating in MTL series.
The same poor play continued into the start of 10-11 when fans wanted to get rid of him, but then he turned his game around completely.
All of this has led to him becoming Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde during long stretches of play, and it's impossible to know which one is coming to the game.
He would probably bounce back in a big way with a change of scenery in system and a goalie coach. But if he doesn't change his style and mentality, or Pens doesn't change their's, he will be gone in a hurry.

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