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MAF has a Save% under .900 4 straight series

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Old
05-10-2012, 09:49 AM
  #476
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
If it were just about this series vs. Philly, I'd still be on the fence. However, I don't remember defense being any sort of a problem vs. Montreal, where he constantly shat the bed at the most inopportune times. After this series, it looks now like it may simply be a trend. He gets off the hook because we won that series, but he was also terrible against Ottawa.

The types of chances Philly got is way, way overstated just to make a defense for MAF. Instead of looking at how many big saves he didn't make, let's just look back on memory on how many big saves he DID make. That's what irks me about this argument, especially when you look at games 2, 3, and 6. People are falsely claiming that he was under such a constant barrage, that nobody could have held the fort for that long. It's nonsense, because I honestly can't remember a single big save he made in those games. Not one.

Game 2: EVERY single scoring opportunity Philly got, they scored on. I don't remember him bailing us out once that game.

Game 3: Not only did they score on every chance they got, they scored on some chances they didn't get, namely that Talbot goal.

Game 5: Again, where was the save when we needed it? "But Giroux was in the slot!!!" Yeah, he was, but Holtby and Lundqvist stopped a few guys in the slot last night too. I don't even want to talk about the third goal that Philly scored to pretty much put the game away.

I'm sorry Kirk, but my argument is never even that he's a bad goalie, just that he's a "good" goalie in a league that's full of them.
The lasting memory I have of that Montreal series is Gonchar doing his best matador impression and letting Travis ****ing Moen skate right around him down the left wing and go in uncontested on MAF in gm 7. So yeah, I'd say defense was an issue then too.

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05-10-2012, 09:52 AM
  #477
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The lasting memory I have of that Montreal series is Gonchar doing his best matador impression and letting Travis ****ing Moen skate right around him down the left wing and go in uncontested on MAF in gm 7. So yeah, I'd say defense was an issue then too.
If I remember correctly, he scored off a bad angle shot that Fleury should have stopped. Yeah Gonchar let him walk by but the puck shouldn't have gone in.

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05-10-2012, 09:58 AM
  #478
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If I remember correctly, he scored off a bad angle shot that Fleury should have stopped. Yeah Gonchar let him walk by but the puck shouldn't have gone in.
It wasn't a horrible angle, rolling puck, far side, top corner. It wasn't a "gimme" save.

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05-10-2012, 10:06 AM
  #479
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It wasn't a horrible angle, rolling puck, far side, top corner. It wasn't a "gimme" save.
I must not be remembering the play correctly. Anyway, Fleury was still pretty poor in that series.

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05-10-2012, 11:07 AM
  #480
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
If it were just about this series vs. Philly, I'd still be on the fence. However, I don't remember defense being any sort of a problem vs. Montreal, where he constantly shat the bed at the most inopportune times. After this series, it looks now like it may simply be a trend. He gets off the hook because we won that series, but he was also terrible against Ottawa.

The types of chances Philly got is way, way overstated just to make a defense for MAF. Instead of looking at how many big saves he didn't make, let's just look back on memory on how many big saves he DID make. That's what irks me about this argument, especially when you look at games 2, 3, and 6. People are falsely claiming that he was under such a constant barrage, that nobody could have held the fort for that long. It's nonsense, because I honestly can't remember a single big save he made in those games. Not one.

Game 2: EVERY single scoring opportunity Philly got, they scored on. I don't remember him bailing us out once that game.

Game 3: Not only did they score on every chance they got, they scored on some chances they didn't get, namely that Talbot goal.

Game 5: Again, where was the save when we needed it? "But Giroux was in the slot!!!" Yeah, he was, but Holtby and Lundqvist stopped a few guys in the slot last night too. I don't even want to talk about the third goal that Philly scored to pretty much put the game away.

I'm sorry Kirk, but my argument is never even that he's a bad goalie, just that he's a "good" goalie in a league that's full of them.
FYI, I'm not in the defend Fleury camp, and I can't argue the Montreal series, no way. I suppose that next year is his **** or get off the pot year. At the very least, I'm in the 'dear god, get a competent backup who can be even a nominal threat' camp.

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05-10-2012, 11:21 AM
  #481
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RosL3XUkgPI

I will say my position on Fleury is definitely on the fence.
I thought after the olympics he looked bad, looked bad against Ottawa and Montreal. Started next season really bad, his mechanics were just not right.

But then I thought he turned things around, if he had not had the wobble at the beginning of the season last year he would have been a Veznia nominee.

You lose 1-0 in your barn in game 7 that is not the goalies fault. This last season he has been good with a long stretch up until just before the playoffs that he was great.

Flyers he has to play better, no question about it. Still some of the defensive lapses were just ridiculous. He does face more high quality scoring chances in a game then most goalies. It's part and parcel with DB hockey.

What should happen is we get a decent backup that might evolve into something (maybe Harding?) and we get a new Goalie Coach.

That said, I get concerned that Fleury's mechanics just go sideways at times.
Like that break away by briere in game 1. He stacked the pads while telegraphing a poke check.
He's been money in shootouts all season long by doing a butterfly or a modified butterfly, where the heck did the 2 pad stack come from?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4Yoyl66j94

Most good beer league shooters could hit that shot fleury gave the whole top of the net away. I know it's a little late to change mechanics. but look at Smith in phoenix. He couldn't even get a starting job before going there.
He worked with a new goalie coach and now everyone is lined up to worship him...

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05-10-2012, 11:29 AM
  #482
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Seems like things have died down on the getting rid of Fleury front. I still think we need to at least bring in a vary capable backup.....not the type of **** backups we've had but more like one who can get 30+ starts and handle a 2 goalie system.

Risking losing playoff years right now just because Fleury cant stop a beach ball with our team hitting its peak makes me sad but I dont see them getting rid of Fleury yet. The bad part is IF Fleury does failboat us out of the playoffs 1 more time his trade value is going to be so low compared to what it would actually be right now.

TLDR Sure would like to take a chance on trading for Tim Thomas or Mikka Kiprusoff this summer!

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05-10-2012, 11:46 AM
  #483
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Originally Posted by phaneuf_fan_3 View Post
Seems like things have died down on the getting rid of Fleury front. I still think we need to at least bring in a vary capable backup.....not the type of **** backups we've had but more like one who can get 30+ starts and handle a 2 goalie system.

Risking losing playoff years right now just because Fleury cant stop a beach ball with our team hitting its peak makes me sad but I dont see them getting rid of Fleury yet. The bad part is IF Fleury does failboat us out of the playoffs 1 more time his trade value is going to be so low compared to what it would actually be right now.

TLDR Sure would like to take a chance on trading for Tim Thomas or Mikka Kiprusoff this summer!
It doesn't help that the organization has zero depth in the system right now, not even a competent back-up. I think Fleury is here until the end of his contract.

Fleury is inconsistent, always has been and always will be. Pens caught him at a peak during their Cup runs and now he's been in a valley ever since. And it's frustrating because his regular season this past year was pretty solid but the playoffs just seemed to leave his confidence depleted.

Goaltending is hard to figure because sometimes big-name guys have great regular seasons and flounder in the playoffs and sometimes you have lesser-names or no-names that can't give you much quality over 60 regular season games but dominate in the playoffs. It is and has always been a unique, volatile position in sports, outside of a handful of all-world or Hall of Fame talents. Fleury is no exception to that.

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05-10-2012, 12:37 PM
  #484
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If I remember correctly, he scored off a bad angle shot that Fleury should have stopped. Yeah Gonchar let him walk by but the puck shouldn't have gone in.
Exactly. That wasn't the 1-0 goal, that was the ****ing 4-0 goal. The game was already decided because of the two gems he allowed against Gionta and Moore.

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05-10-2012, 01:04 PM
  #485
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And what do you consider mediocre numbers?
He has 4 seasons with a GAA under 2.4
He has 4 seasons with a S% over .910, 2 over .915, 1 over .920

Ya he had a bunch of bad seasons 4+ years ago that **** up his career numbers but again, who cares?
Those are pretty average numbers for a starting goalie. Compare those numbers to other starting goalies in the league, and you'll see Fleury consistently lands somewhere in the middle of the pack. Isn't that the very definition of average or mediocre?

2011-12
GAA - 2.36 (tied for 8th among goalies with 40 starts or more)
Save pct. - .913 (tied for 21st overall among goalies with 40 starts or more)

Both of the above I was being generous and didn't even include Brian Elliot's totals because he played 38 games. Bump Fleury down another spot if you include Eliott.

2010-11
GAA - 2.32 (7th among goalies with 40 starts or more)
Save pct. - (tied for 11th among goalies with 40 starts or more)

So while his GAA is usually among the top 10 in the NHL, his save percentages are consistently in the "middle of the pack or worse" category.

Also of note, considering the argument is the Pens' defense is awful and Fleury is hung out to dry a lot more than most goalies, the Pens finished the 2011-12 tied for 4th in allowing the fewest shots against in the entire league. I know that doesn't take into account the quality of those shots, but I find it hard to believe that they're good enough defensively to limit total shots, but at the same time horrible enough defensively to allow more quality shots than most other teams.

I mean, I know you'll respond again with your "lol you guys are right. He's the worst goalie in the league" comment. But I'm not sure how you can continue to argue those who say he's been largely average or decent are wrong, when his numbers themselves say that that's exactly what he's been for the most part.

I'm also going to add an additional footnote right here: this is in regards to his performance to date. Knowing how some folks like to bump old threads to prove they're "right", if Fleury DOES figure out how to stop being a mental midget and from 2012 on becomes a legitimate elite goalie, I don't want my post being taken out of context. Anything I've said above is relation to Fleury from May 2012 and before. What he does after this point ... well, hopefully he can be clutch.

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05-10-2012, 02:45 PM
  #486
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Those are pretty average numbers for a starting goalie. Compare those numbers to other starting goalies in the league, and you'll see Fleury consistently lands somewhere in the middle of the pack. Isn't that the very definition of average or mediocre?

2011-12
GAA - 2.36 (tied for 8th among goalies with 40 starts or more)
Save pct. - .913 (tied for 21st overall among goalies with 40 starts or more)

Both of the above I was being generous and didn't even include Brian Elliot's totals because he played 38 games. Bump Fleury down another spot if you include Eliott.

2010-11
GAA - 2.32 (7th among goalies with 40 starts or more)
Save pct. - (tied for 11th among goalies with 40 starts or more)

So while his GAA is usually among the top 10 in the NHL, his save percentages are consistently in the "middle of the pack or worse" category.

Also of note, considering the argument is the Pens' defense is awful and Fleury is hung out to dry a lot more than most goalies, the Pens finished the 2011-12 tied for 4th in allowing the fewest shots against in the entire league. I know that doesn't take into account the quality of those shots, but I find it hard to believe that they're good enough defensively to limit total shots, but at the same time horrible enough defensively to allow more quality shots than most other teams.

I mean, I know you'll respond again with your "lol you guys are right. He's the worst goalie in the league" comment. But I'm not sure how you can continue to argue those who say he's been largely average or decent are wrong, when his numbers themselves say that that's exactly what he's been for the most part.

I'm also going to add an additional footnote right here: this is in regards to his performance to date. Knowing how some folks like to bump old threads to prove they're "right", if Fleury DOES figure out how to stop being a mental midget and from 2012 on becomes a legitimate elite goalie, I don't want my post being taken out of context. Anything I've said above is relation to Fleury from May 2012 and before. What he does after this point ... well, hopefully he can be clutch.

thing is your #'s back up the assertion that he faces fewer shots but higher quality chances then most.
How can this be? Well if you play a system that is predicated on as much offensive zone time as possible and getting the puck up ice as quickly as possible you see how this can happen.

The other team isn't in your zone that much to out shoot you, however when you screw up the break out of your zone, or you cough it up in the neutral zone the opposition is most likely to get an odd man rush out of it.

Couple that with the fact that since our whole system is predicated on playing in the other team's zone we act like we don't know how to play defense in our own zone when a team does actually establish a cycle/forecheck against us.

As I said, Fleury MUST play better, he was bad. But people can't ignore the defense and pretend that they didn't play a role in all this. Both in eroding Fleury's confidence and just flat out giving up too many golden scoring opportunities.

You want to see text book how we should play defense look at Jersey right now.
They are doing what Blysma had the team doing when we won the cup.

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05-10-2012, 03:11 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by vikingGoalie View Post
thing is your #'s back up the assertion that he faces fewer shots but higher quality chances then most.
How can this be? Well if you play a system that is predicated on as much offensive zone time as possible and getting the puck up ice as quickly as possible you see how this can happen.

The other team isn't in your zone that much to out shoot you, however when you screw up the break out of your zone, or you cough it up in the neutral zone the opposition is most likely to get an odd man rush out of it.

Couple that with the fact that since our whole system is predicated on playing in the other team's zone we act like we don't know how to play defense in our own zone when a team does actually establish a cycle/forecheck against us.
To be honest, this seems more based on an assumption of the kind of scoring chances the team gives up, than on any actual evidence to suggest the Pens actually give up more quality scoring chances than other teams. Has anyone gone over the game sheets from this past season and actually tabulated how often the Pens give up more quality chances than their opposition?

And really, it's a no-win situation for those arguing for it because if things were opposite -- if the Pens gave up the 4th most shots in the league instead of the 4th least -- then the assertion would be, "look at how many shots he faces!". Either way, folks will put a spin on what those shots against total means.

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05-10-2012, 04:58 PM
  #488
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That's what I was thinking. It's not that Fleury is being asked to make the big save on a high quality chance and should be expected to make it. It's that he's being asked to make double, sometimes triple the big saves that other goalies are making. This is a mitigating factor, although I also don't think it white washes the other issues (e.g., softies) that have reared their ugly heads at the least opportune times.
Agreed. And people lump scoring chances together. There are some that even Lundqvist or Quick wouldn't have stopped. No goaltender is going to stop shots when guys are sitting completely uncontested on the doorstep. It's not going to happen. No goaltender is going to stop a 2nd shot after they just made a great save on the 1st shot.

Sure, Fleury wasn't playing up to his normal level in this series. I'll agree with that, but to completely pin it on him, and state some of the things people are stating about him...it's just blatantly false. People forget Quick when he first broke into the league and was getting hung out to dry by that LA defense. He was putting up numbers similar to Fleury (and even worse). He gets a good defense around him though, and he's putting up great stats in a system that focuses on keeping guys from sitting in the box...you see what happens. Quick was always this good.

Not even sure why I'm even debating the statistical point though. Goalie stats are damn near pointless, IMO.

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05-10-2012, 05:34 PM
  #489
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Agreed. And people lump scoring chances together. There are some that even Lundqvist or Quick wouldn't have stopped. No goaltender is going to stop shots when guys are sitting completely uncontested on the doorstep. It's not going to happen. No goaltender is going to stop a 2nd shot after they just made a great save on the 1st shot.

Sure, Fleury wasn't playing up to his normal level in this series. I'll agree with that, but to completely pin it on him, and state some of the things people are stating about him...it's just blatantly false. People forget Quick when he first broke into the league and was getting hung out to dry by that LA defense. He was putting up numbers similar to Fleury (and even worse). He gets a good defense around him though, and he's putting up great stats in a system that focuses on keeping guys from sitting in the box...you see what happens. Quick was always this good.

Not even sure why I'm even debating the statistical point though. Goalie stats are damn near pointless, IMO.
They aren't the end all be all, but to say they are pointless is just bull****.

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05-10-2012, 05:38 PM
  #490
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They aren't the end all be all, but to say they are pointless is just bull****.
Goalie stats are much more indicative of team play than of individual play. You can't look at them and base conclusions. You have to watch games and then base conclusions on them. They can also be skewed. If a goalie faces 20 shots and let's in 2 goals , but those shots were of high quality, it's a whole lot different than a goalie facing 40, letting in 2 goals, and they were of a low percentage.

They need to be taken with a grain of salt, and even then, what do they really say? They surely don't tell a story of how goals were scored. I mean, if a goalie let's in 3 goals, and 2 of them were on 5 on 3's...that doesn't show up in the stat. It shows up as a goalie with a 3.00 GAA.

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05-10-2012, 06:04 PM
  #491
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Goalie stats are much more indicative of team play than of individual play. You can't look at them and base conclusions. You have to watch games and then base conclusions on them. They can also be skewed. If a goalie faces 20 shots and let's in 2 goals , but those shots were of high quality, it's a whole lot different than a goalie facing 40, letting in 2 goals, and they were of a low percentage.

They need to be taken with a grain of salt, and even then, what do they really say? They surely don't tell a story of how goals were scored. I mean, if a goalie let's in 3 goals, and 2 of them were on 5 on 3's...that doesn't show up in the stat. It shows up as a goalie with a 3.00 GAA.
This seems like a bit of a cop out because our goalie is one of those who doesn't put up gaudy stats, IMO.

If Fleury finishes next year with the best GAA and save percentage in the league, I can guarantee that quite a few of those that defend Fleury will be highlighting that fact non stop as to evidence of his great play, probably even bumping this thread to point out how great his stats are. Heck, in this thread alone we've got one guy harping on Fleury's win totals as proof he's a great goalie.

While goalie stats have to be put into proper context, I do think that more often than not a goalie's stats are a reflection of how well he played that season. You rarely, if ever, come across a guy considered to have been the best goalie in the league who only managed to put up so-so numbers. Stellar play generally also translates to stellar statistical values.

It's like points among forwards. Simply looking at goals and assists doesn't give you the entire picture, but at the same time a player who is playing well tends to produce well based on that strong performance. Very rarely would you find players who were outstanding in a given season, but who produced badly.

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05-10-2012, 06:16 PM
  #492
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And some inevitably will. I can tell you right now that I won't. I look at wins. I think that's much more indicative of how effective a goaltender is since that's all that matters.

The guy has 5 seasons over 35 wins, has backstopped the team to 2 Cup finals, and won 1. That's all I need to see. He's capable.

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05-10-2012, 06:38 PM
  #493
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And some inevitably will. I can tell you right now that I won't. I look at wins. I think that's much more indicative of how effective a goaltender is since that's all that matters.

The guy has 5 seasons over 35 wins, has backstopped the team to 2 Cup finals, and won 1. That's all I need to see. He's capable.
true, but his postseason success was several years ago. honest question, what sort of postseason would make you question fleury? i was one of his supporters, but he just had one of the worst series by a goalie ever. no matter how bad your d is, the goalie has to take a lot of blame for such a historically bad series.

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05-10-2012, 06:45 PM
  #494
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true, but his postseason success was several years ago. honest question, what sort of postseason would make you question fleury? i was one of his supporters, but he just had one of the worst series by a goalie ever. no matter how bad your d is, the goalie has to take a lot of blame for such a historically bad series.
I think ever is a very strong word. I actually think Fleury against the Canadiens was the worst postseason ever...but that's just me.

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05-10-2012, 06:51 PM
  #495
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2 of the past 3 postseasons for Fleury have arguably been among the worst post-lockout. That's not good. No doubt our D has been shaky in those appearances, and we need to upgrade in that regard in both personnel and strategy. I'll give him another chance with those changes. If he underachieves again, I'll be done with the guy.

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05-10-2012, 06:52 PM
  #496
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I think ever is a very strong word. I actually think Fleury against the Canadiens was the worst postseason ever...but that's just me.
sorry, i meant to say statistically. fleury's numbers against the flyers this season were among the worst ever, in any era, by any goalie. trying to find the exact stat now, if anyone else knows the exact numbers that would be sweet.

but in any case, fleury has had two absolutely horrible playoffs since having two very good ones. when would you lose faith in fleury?

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05-11-2012, 01:34 AM
  #497
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And some inevitably will. I can tell you right now that I won't. I look at wins. I think that's much more indicative of how effective a goaltender is since that's all that matters.

The guy has 5 seasons over 35 wins, has backstopped the team to 2 Cup finals, and won 1. That's all I need to see. He's capable.
You can't pick and choose which stat is valid based on which stats look good for Fleury though. If save % and GAA aren't completely accurate because they don't reflect shot quality, then surely wins aren't completely accurate because they don't reflect the performance of the team in front of the goalie right? Look at Bryzgalov. He got the 4 "wins" it took to oust the Pens, but he was a train wreck. His team bailed him out by scoring 7+ goals a few times. Still, they will forever count on his record as 4 postseason wins. It's probably safe to say that Fleury has quite a few of that type of "win" too.

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05-11-2012, 02:50 AM
  #498
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MAF sucked in this playoffs and that much is true. Rebound control and people clearing the net was at a all time low.

In saying that MAF had a great reg season and was voted as a + player more often than not.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...highlight=year

I say he is a good goalie and not worth looking for another #1. none out there which we could afford are better. We have all our horses next year and I vote that we play a better defensive style around MAF. We are going to score if we have everyone in the lineup.

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05-11-2012, 03:59 AM
  #499
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Originally Posted by Whakahere View Post
MAF sucked in this playoffs and that much is true. Rebound control and people clearing the net was at a all time low.

In saying that MAF had a great reg season and was voted as a + player more often than not.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...highlight=year

I say he is a good goalie and not worth looking for another #1. none out there which we could afford are better. We have all our horses next year and I vote that we play a better defensive style around MAF. We are going to score if we have everyone in the lineup.
I agree with this. I don't think he's terrible or that we absolutely have to get rid of him, but people need to let go of the fantasy that he's a top tier goalie who can take the team on his back. The Pens can win with him as long as they recognize that he's going to need a little more sheltering. Change the system, change the defensive personnel, get a backup goalie who can take some of the load... I don't know. But they need to start approaching things as though our goaltending is average because it is.

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05-11-2012, 04:35 AM
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JTG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSniper26 View Post
You can't pick and choose which stat is valid based on which stats look good for Fleury though. If save % and GAA aren't completely accurate because they don't reflect shot quality, then surely wins aren't completely accurate because they don't reflect the performance of the team in front of the goalie right? Look at Bryzgalov. He got the 4 "wins" it took to oust the Pens, but he was a train wreck. His team bailed him out by scoring 7+ goals a few times. Still, they will forever count on his record as 4 postseason wins. It's probably safe to say that Fleury has quite a few of that type of "win" too.
I'm not picking and choosing stats. I'm picking 1, and that 1 is all that matters. A goalie's 0.920 save percentage doesn't win you a Cup. Wins matter, and Fleury has those...both in the regular season and the playoffs.

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