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04-22-2012, 09:50 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Yeah but you had to be sure that Giroux would be THAT good.I don't why the hell Giroux wasn't drafted higher , and the habs select david fischer just before him

Giroux is massively and spectacularly proving all the doubters wrong

Also , Brière reminds me of a child playing on the street dreaming of being in the NHL playoffs , that's where he is mentally it seems , and that's why he's so good in the playoffs, every damn year.
Flyers seem to be good at developing their draft picks. The Leafs selected Jiri Tlusty over him. I think Giroux has probably exceeded all expectations, I don't remember much fanfare over him during his draft year.

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04-22-2012, 09:54 PM
  #252
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I think if there's ANYTHING we can be sure of by now, it's that Luongo's days in Vancouver are numbered. I wouldn't be surprised if he was dealt in the off-season. Schneider has pretty clearly outplayed him this season, and is the biggest reason why the Canucks even have a hope at all at advancing right now.

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04-22-2012, 09:54 PM
  #253
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I think if there's ANYTHING we can be sure of by now, it's that Luongo's days in Vancouver are numbered. I wouldn't be surprised if he was dealt in the off-season. Schneider has pretty clearly outplayed him this season, and is the biggest reason why the Canucks even have a hope at all at advancing right now.
Welp, that hope just ended.

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04-22-2012, 09:55 PM
  #254
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I'm thinking about all the matches I saw Giroux played in this year ( probably around 15-20 ) and I'm freaking out remembering some of his plays and especially the way he plays in general.Any Giroux shift you can't stop watching him , you know from the very moment he steps on the ice he is the guy.He has that 80s/90s offense intelligence to him in some ways that is more rare nowadays, the play(even offense) has become more robotic but the great players will always prove robotic play can't compete with intelligence in the long run.By taking this into consideration , I just don't see how Giroux could slow down in the upcoming years except if he's injured.

To me Giroux is just a much more interesting player than Steven Stamkos (this year)

Stamkos worries me in a sense , he's scoring too many goals right now , his playmaking record is ridiculously low and those kind of goalscoring peaks early in a career tend to slow down in a high percentage of similar cases.

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04-22-2012, 10:00 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Welp, that hope just ended.
Well, I think everyone knew that the Canucks weren't coming back. The important thing is, where to go from here? I think Luongo definitely needs to go. The amount of opportunities he's had to rid himself of his playoff demons and the amount of times that he's failed miserably to steal an important series for his team are just insane. I think a lot of other things need to happen too. Kesler should be the kind of player that wears his heart on his sleeve, but you guys are always complaining about him. I think the Sedins are just fine, but this team needs to find some heart and character somewhere, and it isn't with the current group of guys.

Find a RW that can play with the Sedins but also stir **** up from time to time, a guy like Mike Knuble. A lot of the defensive responsibilities that Kesler has to deal with really need to be relaxed as well. A guy with his talent level cannot be a checker. I think coaching has a lot to do with that.

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04-22-2012, 10:02 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I'm thinking about all the matches I saw Giroux played in this year ( probably around 15-20 ) and I'm freaking out remembering some of his plays and especially the way he plays in general.Any Giroux shift you can't stop watching him , you know from the very moment he steps on the ice he is the guy.He has that 80s/90s offense intelligence to him in some ways that is more rare nowadays, the play(even offense) has become more robotic but the great players will always prove robotic play can't compete with intelligence in the long run.By taking this into consideration , I just don't see how Giroux could slow down in the upcoming years except if he's injured.

To me Giroux is just a much more interesting player than Steven Stamkos (this year)

Stamkos worries me in a sense , he's scoring too many goals right now , his playmaking record is ridiculously low and those kind of goalscoring peaks early in a career tend to slow down in a high percentage of similar cases.
That's because Stamkos is his team's best goal scorer by a MILE. He's depended upon to shoulder that burden because noone other than St. Louis is capable of it (and St. Louis isn't a tremendous goal scorer himself).

Stamkos' greatest talent is his shot, but I think a player as good as he is can likely become a great playmaker too. The problem is, nobody else on the team is anywhere close to him at scoring goals, so it falls to him.

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04-22-2012, 10:07 PM
  #257
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That's because Stamkos is his team's best goal scorer by a MILE. He's depended upon to shoulder that burden because noone other than St. Louis is capable of it (and St. Louis isn't a tremendous goal scorer himself).

Stamkos' greatest talent is his shot, but I think a player as good as he is can likely become a great playmaker too. The problem is, nobody else on the team is anywhere close to him at scoring goals, so it falls to him.
I don't think the tampa bay line-up is weak enough for him to imitated Bure in Florida.It still shows very obvious bias toward goal-scoring.While I don't doubt the intelligence of Stamkos like I do Ovechkin , having ridiculously low playmaking season doesn't help ''forming'' his playmaking intelligence at the NHL level.

I would be curious to know how many of his assists are rebounds.That could even lower his actual playmaking merits for this already poor year in that regard.

Scoring 60 goals and not getting 100 pts is not a sign of a player becoming a great playmaker.Is there even one example of it in history?

Stamkos could also continue scoring at 50 goals rate for 7 or 8 years , which would be great but is unlikely if you look at history odds.Goal scorers simply doesn't stays elite as long as playmakers.

I hope I am wrong though , the league needs Stamkos right now.


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04-22-2012, 10:09 PM
  #258
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Well, I think everyone knew that the Canucks weren't coming back. The important thing is, where to go from here? I think Luongo definitely needs to go. The amount of opportunities he's had to rid himself of his playoff demons and the amount of times that he's failed miserably to steal an important series for his team are just insane. I think a lot of other things need to happen too. Kesler should be the kind of player that wears his heart on his sleeve, but you guys are always complaining about him. I think the Sedins are just fine, but this team needs to find some heart and character somewhere, and it isn't with the current group of guys.

Find a RW that can play with the Sedins but also stir **** up from time to time, a guy like Mike Knuble. A lot of the defensive responsibilities that Kesler has to deal with really need to be relaxed as well. A guy with his talent level cannot be a checker. I think coaching has a lot to do with that.
Eh yeah I think Luongo probably goes. One of them has to to try to improve the team. Honestly I'd probably deal Schneider. I think they'll get more for him, and I think the difference isn't really that large between the two.

I think they could use another center personally. Losing Hodgson is going to bite them ini the ass.

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04-22-2012, 10:12 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I don't think the tampa bay line-up is weak enough for him to imitated Bure in Florida.It still showsa very obvious bias toward goal-scoring.While I don't doubt the intelligence of Stamkos like I do Ovechkin , having ridiculously low playmaking season doesn't help ''forming'' his playmaking intelligence at the NHL level.

I would be curious to know how many of his assists are rebounds.That could even lower his actual playmaking merits for this already poor year in that regard.

Scoring 60 goals and not getting 100 pts is not a sign of a player becoming a great playmaker.Is there even one example of it in history?
Because there is nobody else on Tampa Bay that is good at scoring goals, this isn't hard to understand. St. Louis is an elite playmaker, Purcell is showing flashes of being a great player, but again, another playmaker. Lecavalier is the only player on that team other than Stamkos who is a great goalscorer (or at least, was), but he's also a center.

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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Eh yeah I think Luongo probably goes. One of them has to to try to improve the team. Honestly I'd probably deal Schneider. I think they'll get more for him, and I think the difference isn't really that large between the two.

I think they could use another center personally. Losing Hodgson is going to bite them ini the ass.
I disagree about keeping Luongo, big time. The guy just can't do it in the playoffs. It's weird, because I remember back when the Canucks were just becoming an elite team after the lockout, Luongo was stealing playoff series' for them. Now, he's balls.

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04-22-2012, 10:16 PM
  #260
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Because there is nobody else on Tampa Bay that is good at scoring goals, this isn't hard to understand. St. Louis is an elite playmaker, Purcell is showing flashes of being a great player, but again, another playmaker. Lecavalier is the only player on that team other than Stamkos who is a great goalscorer (or at least, was), but he's also a center.

.
you may be right , maybe Stamkos is that good that he can decide what is needed in the team offensively and provide it (while I don't think Giroux could score 60 goals if he wanted).If that's the reality it's only good for the league to have another player of that quality and I'm more than happy with it(this would also make me change my mind about Giroux being more interesting if Stamkos is that good).The league is already lacking in top players , if Stamkos and Giroux could stay elite couple of years with the regulars it would create a nice little 5-6 window era more intesresting than the last few years.

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04-22-2012, 10:17 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
you may be right , maybe Stamkos is that good that he can decide what is needed in the team offensively and provide it (while I'm not sure Giroux could score 60 goals if he wanted).If that's the reality it's only good for the league to have another player of that quality and I'm more than happy with it.The league is already lacking in top players , if Stamkos and Giroux could stay elite couple of years with the regulars it would create a nice little 5-6 window era more intesresting than the last few years.
You're saying that now, and look at the new crop of kids coming into the league next year. Grigorenko, Galchenyuk, Forsberg, Yakupov, etc. Exciting times lie ahead.

Also, yeah, Giroux is not a goal scorer. He's a very elite playmaker, but definitely not a great goalscorer. At least, not right now. I think he probably will be both one day.

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04-22-2012, 10:23 PM
  #262
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You're saying that now, and look at the new crop of kids coming into the league next year. Grigorenko, Galchenyuk, Forsberg, Yakupov, etc. Exciting times lie ahead.

Also, yeah, Giroux is not a goal scorer. He's a very elite playmaker, but definitely not a great goalscorer. At least, not right now. I think he probably will be both one day.
I'm not really excited with this year's crop at all.Kind of sad that we have a high pick this year instead of another.We'll see.

Stamkos' season and goalscoring form are too eye-candy for my taste.Things are going GREAT for Stamkos , but what kind of youth energy does a guy need to score and play like he does? There's a difference between 20y.o./25y.o. , 25y.o./30y.o. and 30y.o. and beyond each and every year.Stamkos is leaning more and more toward athletic skills to dominate instead of his brain and hockey I.Q.(even though he is still well above average) How long can he maintain and how well will he adjust? Playmakers doesn't need a middle-of-career adjustment , they can always just stay playmakers.

I hope I'm wrong but this is just how I see it.Maybe I'm just used to be dissapointed by elite players who didn't maintain their pace since the Jagr era


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04-22-2012, 10:29 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I'm not really excited with this year's crop at all.Kind of sad that we have a high pick this year instead of another.We'll see.

Stamkos' season and goalscoring form are too eye-candy for my taste.Things are going GREAT for Stamkos , but what kind of youth energy does a guy need to score and play like he does? There's a difference between 20y.o./25y.o. , 25y.o./30y.o. and 30y.o. and beyond each and every year.Stamkos is leaning more and more toward athletic skills to dominate instead of his brain and hockey I.Q.(even though he is still well above average) How long can he maintain and how well will he adjust? Playmakers doesn't need a middle-of-career adjustment , they can always just stay playmakers.
And goal scorers can always just stay goal scorers. Ask Gordie Howe.

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04-22-2012, 10:33 PM
  #264
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And goal scorers can always just stay goal scorers. Ask Gordie Howe.
I know , and I hope so , but goalscorers tend to slow down more quickly and not all of them can adjust to playmaking , that's all I'm saying

I hope Steven Stamkos continue to score 60 goals seasons for 10 years , would make for some great historic placements in ATDs lol

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04-22-2012, 10:34 PM
  #265
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I know , and I hope so , but goalscorers tend to slow down more quickly , that's all I'm saying.
Fair enough. I think Stamkos definitely IS the real deal and will continue to become a better and better player.. and I was one of the guys that was saying that he was basically a product of St. Louis. But this year, St. Louis had a very bad season by his standards, but Stamkos did not regress at all.

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04-22-2012, 10:49 PM
  #266
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Fair enough. I think Stamkos definitely IS the real deal and will continue to become a better and better player.. and I was one of the guys that was saying that he was basically a product of St. Louis. But this year, St. Louis had a very bad season by his standards, but Stamkos did not regress at all.
This is a part of what I'm saying , I'm just playing the odds here (because that's the way to gamble) , and Stamkos poor playmaking records makes it hard to coldly calculate that Stamkos is any different from the high percentage of goalscorers who slowed down faster than your average playmaker.If I had to bet money I would bet it on Stamkos slowing down.

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04-22-2012, 10:59 PM
  #267
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Scoring 60 goals and not getting 100 pts is not a sign of a player becoming a great playmaker.Is there even one example of it in history?
This question intrigued me, so I looked it up...

Of the 39 60+ goal seasons, there have been 3 where the player did not get 100 pts.

Reggie Leach: 61-30-91 in 1975-76
Steven Stamkos: 60-37-97 in 2011-12
Lanny McDonald: 66-32-98 in 1982-83

Next closest is Steve Shutt: 60-45-105 in 1976-77

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04-22-2012, 11:00 PM
  #268
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I'm wondering how much I would be willing to pay to play one game of hockey with Gretzky's vision.As a player I was quite intelligent and that's why I was able to compete with more athletic player than me , but I wonder HOW you see the ice through Gretzky's eyes.How is Gretzky any differant(level-wise) from any other kind of geniuses (mathematics/physics/music) ? Gretzky had to know how much higher he was than the other humans on the ice , he saw their stupidity and capitalized too consistantly to doubt he was many levels above them.The fact he never had a low in his prime-career proves he was so far ahead a cold streak was not possible for him.His hockey IQ couldn't be countered and he knew it.


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04-23-2012, 04:57 AM
  #269
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Taiwanese News recap of NHL playoff violence. YOU ALL NEED TO WATCH THIS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onFvwBuaM80


Things to keep an eye out for:

- Speed Racer style helmets
- Raffi Torres's rocket skates
- Aaron Asham transforming into an actual penguin

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04-23-2012, 06:44 AM
  #270
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Anyone else getting tired of refs blowing the whistle everytime some emotion might be building up? NHL playoffs is less exciting now. DPE had a absolutely terrible regular season but atleast the playoffs were amazing with tight physical game and emotion.

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04-23-2012, 09:04 AM
  #271
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Originally Posted by jarek View Post
You're saying that now, and look at the new crop of kids coming into the league next year. Grigorenko, Galchenyuk, Forsberg, Yakupov, etc. Exciting times lie ahead. Also, yeah, Giroux is not a goal scorer. He's a very elite playmaker, but definitely not a great goalscorer. At least, not right now. I think he probably will be both one day.
Giroux's better than some guys that were taken in the 25th round. Stamkos is only around 25 and asked to shoot first. His play making skills will develop. Another amazing thing about Gretzky is he was not distracted by the possibility of taking the big hit while he was making plays.


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04-23-2012, 10:44 AM
  #272
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You want an example of a choker, look no further than VanI's boy Patty Marleau.
wow, why can't people get off the "Marleau is a choker" bandwagon? When did this even start? It must be 6 years by now.

one bad playoff and people are back on it. It's stupid. I mean, I'm not saying he's a playoff superstar or anything, but production-wise he has been right on expectations.

In his career, his PPG goes from 0.74 in the regular season to 0.68 in the playoffs. That is an 8% drop, which is better than most players experience. But that also includes 4 years in which he had about half a point per game and much less than that in the playoffs as the Sharks were easy first round fodder.

From 2002 till now, Marleau has 0.75 PPG in the playoffs, and 0.83 in the regular season, a drop of 9%. Before this "0 in 5" year it was only a 5% drop in his prime years.

with the "playoff choker theory" put to bed, let's talk about Marleau. He's destined to become a really interesting case and he actually already is. The guy will turn 33 just before the start of next season and has 1117 career GP already, thanks to starting at age 18 and missing just 31 games in 14 seasons. He shows no signs of slowing down and could honestly reach some pretty insane and deceptive career totals. 30 goals a year for 5 years, and he has 537 (plus, I don't really think he'll be done at 37, he'll plug along on a second line somewhere getting 15-20 goals Recchi style). He was 4th and 6th in goals in his best years, but I don't think anyone ever really thought he was among the ten best goal scorers; he just played on a really dominant line. In his best seasons he's been 14th and 19th in points, but as the 3rd best member of the line. In his next best year he was 29th in points.

Marleau is "ok" defensively and I don't see him as a shrinking violet, personally, but he doesn't really have all-time abilities in the defensive and physical areas of the game either. No matter what his durability and longevity lead to, I don't think he will ever have the offensive prime to justify placement on a 2nd line in the ATD, either. He will likely end up as what some people mistakenly see Mark Recchi as.

So, what to do with him? Elite MLD 1st liner? Due to his multipositionality, should he be an early spare? 3rd/4th scoring line? Offensive punch added to a shutdown line? (honestly, there will always be better options for that role, too)

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So in an all-time sense, what to do with the numbers that the guys in the Pens-Flyers series put up? Claude Giroux put up 14 points in 6 games.. that's more points than most players will have all playoffs in one series.
Luckily Claude Giroux will have 100 more playoff games in his career so this excellent series will be just a small portion of what people use to judge his legacy. Let's not act like he suddenly "broke the mold" here.

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Wow, holy crap. Giroux already has a substantial lead in playoff scoring. 5 points up on Staal, or 156% of 2nd place.. haha. This guy basically WAS the difference in that series.
Giroux was excellent, but only one player can claim to be "the difference" here, and not in a good way.

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04-23-2012, 10:58 AM
  #273
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I'm thinking about all the matches I saw Giroux played in this year ( probably around 15-20 ) and I'm freaking out remembering some of his plays and especially the way he plays in general.Any Giroux shift you can't stop watching him , you know from the very moment he steps on the ice he is the guy.He has that 80s/90s offense intelligence to him in some ways that is more rare nowadays, the play(even offense) has become more robotic but the great players will always prove robotic play can't compete with intelligence in the long run.By taking this into consideration , I just don't see how Giroux could slow down in the upcoming years except if he's injured.

To me Giroux is just a much more interesting player than Steven Stamkos (this year)

Stamkos worries me in a sense , he's scoring too many goals right now , his playmaking record is ridiculously low and those kind of goalscoring peaks early in a career tend to slow down in a high percentage of similar cases.
You could be right.

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I don't think the tampa bay line-up is weak enough for him to imitated Bure in Florida.It still shows very obvious bias toward goal-scoring.While I don't doubt the intelligence of Stamkos like I do Ovechkin , having ridiculously low playmaking season doesn't help ''forming'' his playmaking intelligence at the NHL level.

I would be curious to know how many of his assists are rebounds.That could even lower his actual playmaking merits for this already poor year in that regard.

Scoring 60 goals and not getting 100 pts is not a sign of a player becoming a great playmaker.Is there even one example of it in history?

Stamkos could also continue scoring at 50 goals rate for 7 or 8 years , which would be great but is unlikely if you look at history odds.Goal scorers simply doesn't stays elite as long as playmakers.

I hope I am wrong though , the league needs Stamkos right now.
Passing and playmaking are often two different things. Getting shots on net is a skill, and if you don't score, but your shot causes someone else to score, you made that play. Give credit where it is due.

assists don't automatically mean passing, but they should be a reasonable estimation of playmaking, regarldless of how they are attained.

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I disagree about keeping Luongo, big time. The guy just can't do it in the playoffs. .
Yes, and in just two games he totally proved it.

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And goal scorers can always just stay goal scorers. Ask Gordie Howe.
Yes, let's ask the greatest player of all time!

regardless, Howe was a truly dominant (like Stamkos this year) goal scorer in just three seasons, 1952, 1953 and 1957. Aside from Lemieux I don't know who else can claim to be that dominant at scoring goals more than that many seasons apart. What I'm trying to say is, the window of time in which a player can be the type of player who completely kills the #2 goal scorer is probably no more than six seasons. It turned out to be only two seasons for Ovechkin, it was three for Hull, it was four for Gretzky, it was five for Esposito, it was six for Richard, it was six for Howe.

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04-23-2012, 11:01 AM
  #274
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Yes, and in just two games he totally proved it.
How about the finals last year? How about that epic crap game 7 against the Hawks the year before? He's shat the bed multiple times..

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04-23-2012, 11:02 AM
  #275
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Maybe shots are assists but getting assists from shooting , with little to no playmaking assists , won't help when you won't be able to score as much anymore and you have to make the transition to being more of a playmaker to remain elite.

The most interesting player in the league remains Malkin , his overall talent level for each part of what constitute the offensive part of hockey is brilliant.Malkin has the profile of a guy who could remain a top player for a very long time.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 04-23-2012 at 11:10 AM.
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