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How did we get to this point?

View Poll Results: Who do you blame?
MAF 14 12.96%
HCDB 33 30.56%
D-corps 61 56.48%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-16-2012, 07:30 AM
  #1
mpp9
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How did we get to this point?

Who do you blame more for our playoff performance. DB, our D-corps, or MAF?

Personally, I think our guys have started to tune DB out. Philly has read our puck retrievals and breakout passes to a T.

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Old
04-16-2012, 07:34 AM
  #2
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I'll say it's our 9 million dollars worth of butter, err sorry...defense.

Fleury being tired after getting 40+ wins could be part of it too.

Ahh hell where's the "All" option?

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04-16-2012, 07:42 AM
  #3
H382
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I would have picked all of the above if I had the choice, but one thing I noticed was that Philly jumps on our breakout like they know exactly what we are doing. That causes a turnover, which causes an odd man break and MAF just can't stop every golden opportunity. He isn't even stopping half of them.

So IMO, DB needs to make some adjustments. Is it too late to make those adjustments? Probably. I gotta give credit to Philly's coaching though.

I think the Pens need to trap HARD this 4th game. Do something drastic, like the Tampa 1-3-1. If we need to win 2-1, then so be it.. But we obviously don't have the game plan to out gun them.

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04-16-2012, 07:59 AM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H382 View Post
I would have picked all of the above if I had the choice, but one thing I noticed was that Philly jumps on our breakout like they know exactly what we are doing. That causes a turnover, which causes an odd man break and MAF just can't stop every golden opportunity. He isn't even stopping half of them.

So IMO, DB needs to make some adjustments. Is it too late to make those adjustments? Probably. I gotta give credit to Philly's coaching though.

I think the Pens need to trap HARD this 4th game. Do something drastic, like the Tampa 1-3-1. If we need to win 2-1, then so be it.. But we obviously don't have the game plan to out gun them.
I think that is the heart of Fleury's problems right now. He wasn't on a roll to going into the playoffs in the first place because at the end of the year the defense kept leaving him out to dry. There's only so much of that a goalie can take before his psyche gets screwed up. Add to that the fact that Philly had our number, the number of games Fleury had to play this season because the backups sucked, and Fleury's confidence is shot right now.

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04-16-2012, 08:07 AM
  #5
Miss Ausguins
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I don't blame MAF at all but I think the poor guy is so overworked as there is no decent back-up.

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04-16-2012, 08:10 AM
  #6
sniugneP
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Right now, MAF's psyche is fragile. He has zero confidence. I seriously doubt he will bounce back in Game 4. You have to wonder when next season starts, will he continue to struggle like in beginning of 2010 season?

As for DB, he was clearly outcoached, no questions about it. Lavi made some good moves during games.

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04-16-2012, 08:16 AM
  #7
mpp9
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MAF isn't a kid anymore. If he's this soft mentally, we have a problem.

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Old
04-16-2012, 08:24 AM
  #8
Uncle Jorgi
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DB has to shoulder some of the credit for not making adjustments, but i've said it before and i'll say it again .... if your players aren't playing with any focus and continually make stupid plays, it doesn't matter what system you play, you're going to lose badly. Just the gap control the defense has shown in this series ... that's not coaching. Anyone who's played in the AHL for 10 minutes knows they need better gap control to play professional hockey successfully.

The outlet passing has been ****, the pinching has been ****, the positioning has been ****, the gap control has been ****, the communication has been ****, the one-on-one battles are getting lost continually and the players are constantly getting beaten to loose pucks. That's not system. That's a bunch of defensive players playing awfully.

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04-16-2012, 08:28 AM
  #9
cassius
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Martin, Michalek, Orpik in that order.

Our defense has been laughable throughout this entire series. You can't coach guys how to clear pucks in your own zone, how to take the man, how to not get burned on the outside on every play.... veterans who have been in this league should know that stuff by now.

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04-16-2012, 08:30 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
MAF isn't a kid anymore. If he's this soft mentally, we have a problem.
It's not really like that. I'm saying after getting hung out to dry by the defense all season long, the Flyers owning us as a team, the long schedule he played, and not having a great start to the series all factor into where he is right now. I don't really blame him at this point.

His play is completely inexcusable though, so don't get me wrong.

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04-16-2012, 08:40 AM
  #11
mpp9
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I can understand Fleury getting tired in a long playoff run with the number of games he played in the regular season, but he played like dog**** from game 1 on.

We've been **** defensively for awhile, it's not like Fleury is seeing anything new. With the way we're scoring, if he was half the goalie he was in the regular season for the most part, this is a series.

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04-16-2012, 08:42 AM
  #12
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Gotta hang the defense issues on HCDB's system. Our offense has been good enough to cover for defense lapses and allowed him to continue to tinker with system changes even when it was obvious it wasn't working. Not enough guys on the roster are suited to the man-to-man system, injuries hindered the development of the chemistry needed and Bylsma doesn't have the skills at match-ups that are crucial to that type of system. Last season was a standard zone type of system, and it was one of the best in the league. This year it has looked like ass most of the season. Offense can only make up for it for so long. At some point you have to admit it's not working and go back to what does. And the playoffs is too late.


Last edited by DegenX: 04-16-2012 at 09:01 AM.
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Old
04-16-2012, 09:36 AM
  #13
Dupree13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi View Post
DB has to shoulder some of the credit for not making adjustments, but i've said it before and i'll say it again .... if your players aren't playing with any focus and continually make stupid plays, it doesn't matter what system you play, you're going to lose badly. Just the gap control the defense has shown in this series ... that's not coaching. Anyone who's played in the AHL for 10 minutes knows they need better gap control to play professional hockey successfully.

The outlet passing has been ****, the pinching has been ****, the positioning has been ****, the gap control has been ****, the communication has been ****, the one-on-one battles are getting lost continually and the players are constantly getting beaten to loose pucks. That's not system. That's a bunch of defensive players playing awfully.
That may be but since you can't fire the whole team, the buck must stop at Bylsma. I can't believe that all these players suck that bad. I think something is really awry with this team mentally, though I can't even guess as to what it could be. Hopefully someday we find out. It might not be DB's fault at all but if you need to make a change (and man, it'd be pretty tough to stand pat after this debacle) then it can only be DB.

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04-16-2012, 09:56 AM
  #14
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It seems Dan's team is trying to play the yinzer style of "we do what we do, let them try to beat us". If the Pens got their swagger, it can work. But if the opponent trips them up and they lose confidence, look out.

His preparation for the Flyers has been terrible. This is a team hes seen a lot on this year. Case in point - Claude Giroux has scored the exact same goal three times in this series. At the start of the 3rd period Jagr held onto the puck and found him wide open to score #3. There were plenty of Penguins around to counter this. No one thought to do so.

You can argue the Pens won a cup with DB so he is infallible. But that cup win came a meer 4 months off the tenure of a previous coach, someone who brought the Pens to their first cup final in 15 years. I would argue the Cup win was a combination of the discipline the hardass Therrien gave them along with the confidence and swagger the always-positive DB brought. These days these guys just don't have the discipline. Its too much of a country club

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04-16-2012, 12:59 PM
  #15
Paxton Fettel
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when did this team start losing? it was a few games after Sid came back. all of a sudden the Pens were playing without defending. this team lost a home and away series against the Isles for christ's sakes. no wonder that the Flyers score 8 every night.

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04-16-2012, 01:07 PM
  #16
Ominous Grey
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Food for thought.

Orpik was a out for 5 goals against last night. His defensive partner was a +1. (How does that even happen?)

And Martin has been the worst defenseman I've ever seen in the playoffs for the Pens. He was also out for 5 goals against.

Defense has to take the majority of the blame. 20 goals against in 3 games is rediculous. MAF isn't absolved from guilt by a longshot (<.800 Sv%), but the defense has been so bad it's absurd.

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04-16-2012, 01:14 PM
  #17
Dupree13
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It's really weird. Even after reading the multitude of different takes, I still don't think I've seen an explanation that is close to adequate. Pointing the finger at one or three or four guys doesn't cut it, it's truly been a team wide collapse in defensive play. Something really went rotten with this team. Never seen anything quite like it. Some journalist needs to press the issue and ask DB some hard questions.

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04-16-2012, 01:16 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
It's really weird. Even after reading the multitude of different takes, I still don't think I've seen an explanation that is close to adequate. Pointing the finger at one or three or four guys doesn't cut it, it's truly been a team wide collapse in defensive play. Something really went rotten with this team. Never seen anything quite like it. Some journalist needs to press the issue and ask DB some hard questions.
Yeah... guys aren't backchecking hard, they are making horrible pinches, the zone is being exited way to early, passes are being intercepted at the blue lines, the defense is too afraid to take hits to make plays, the forwards aren't picking up the correct man on the backcheck, the PP acts like they don't give a **** once the puck passes the red line on into their zone, the PK is letting up glorious passes across the house area, nobody is clearing the crease, the defense takes themselves out of position for no apparent reason...

So many problems...

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04-16-2012, 01:29 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
Yeah... guys aren't backchecking hard, they are making horrible pinches, the zone is being exited way to early, passes are being intercepted at the blue lines, the defense is too afraid to take hits to make plays, the forwards aren't picking up the correct man on the backcheck, the PP acts like they don't give a **** once the puck passes the red line on into their zone, the PK is letting up glorious passes across the house area, nobody is clearing the crease, the defense takes themselves out of position for no apparent reason...

So many problems...
this is as comprehensive a summary as you'll find on the subject. for me the worst offender is the three stooges in their role of pushing up the puck once they retrieve it from the d-zone. all their passes get bobbled or intercepted and for some reason they've forgotten how to defend the resulting odd-man rushes.

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04-16-2012, 01:39 PM
  #20
Sidney the Kidney
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If I had to choose, I'd say a mix of the above.

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04-16-2012, 01:44 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Who do you blame more for our playoff performance. DB, our D-corps, or MAF?

Personally, I think our guys have started to tune DB out. Philly has read our puck retrievals and breakout passes to a T.
It was a toss-up between Bylsma and our blueline... Bylsma "won". He has not aptitude for changing strategy and NO ****ing defensive competence.

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Old
04-16-2012, 01:49 PM
  #22
pensfansince88
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1. Martin
2. Orpik
3. HCDB
4. Fleury
5. Rest of em

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04-16-2012, 01:54 PM
  #23
Giskard
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I don't think how MAF had played was an issue.
He could had been a beast and made 50+ stops a game, but with this defense, this Flyers would have been score as many goals either.
They simply own our defense, I don't know why or how, but they do.

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04-16-2012, 01:59 PM
  #24
Karnage420
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focus on offensive play really really is our undoing.

that and untimely goaltending.

going with HCDB here.
if we slowed the pace down by dumping and chasing EVERY single play maybe MAF has time to make a few easy saves and build his confidence.

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Old
04-16-2012, 02:00 PM
  #25
SidTheKid8787
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It was certainly a fear. We knew guys like Martin, Orpik, Michaluk had bad years(not consistant). We hoped most or all would be there for us come crunch time. Niskanen has been one of our best (most reliable) D-Man all year. Doesn't help that he's out or playing injured.

To constantly put Paul Martin above all other D-Men in certain situations, even after the constant disappointments is on the coach. Don't try and fix it, just keep going with it and hope it works seems to be DB's motto. Shero gets a little leeway here cuz this same D-core played half decently in last years playoffs.

So Coach and D-Core (including Fleury) for me.

All that being said, the Flyers just have our number.

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