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Goalies before 1950 research thread

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Old
04-16-2012, 03:20 PM
  #26
TheDevilMadeMe
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Harry Lumley

PROFILE NEEDED

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Old
04-16-2012, 03:24 PM
  #27
TheDevilMadeMe
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Right now, I just used this as a dumping ground for previous ATD profiles. I was pleasantly surprised that most of these guys have already been profiled, though some profiles are much more thorough than others.

Feel free to add any original research here and above all else, try to find a level of comparison between these goalies.

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04-16-2012, 03:51 PM
  #28
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Nice work! Will be invaluable to have all of this in one place.

I'll attempt to contribute and supplement as I can (although personal events will be a priority for the next two months or so).

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04-16-2012, 04:41 PM
  #29
Johnny Engine
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From those photos, Charlier Gardiner and Mike Karakas sure look alike.

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04-16-2012, 04:52 PM
  #30
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
From those photos, Charlier Gardiner and Mike Karakas sure look alike.
Heh, the HHOF website uses that exact same picture for Karakas, so I changed the Gardiner pick to their pic of Gardiner.

Whatever blog that picture game from had it labeled as Gardiner.

(For those who didn't see it, the pics for Karakas and Gardiner were exactly the same, but from two different sources that labeled it a different guy)

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Old
04-16-2012, 05:19 PM
  #31
seventieslord
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Quote:
In “Let’s Talk Hockey, 50 Wonderful Debates” by Phil Schlenker he places Benedict as the #8 goalie of all time. Here’s what he has to say:
This is just a guy who came out of nowhere and published a book. I have no idea what his credentials are. Does anyone know?

I mean, I like Benedict, but this should not be seen as anything adding to his case just because some guy who may or may not have done any real research on the subject.

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04-16-2012, 06:23 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
This is just a guy who came out of nowhere and published a book. I have no idea what his credentials are. Does anyone know?
http://www.hockeybookreviews.com/200...schlenker.html

If Joe Pelletier has never heard of him (prior to the book), then my guess would be that the book is his credentials (NTTAWWT). Joe knows everyone.

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04-16-2012, 07:12 PM
  #33
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Yeah seventies before putting that in the bio I also read that review that Taco has pointed out. I wouldn't have put it in there had I not felt good about its level of research.

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04-16-2012, 08:34 PM
  #34
overpass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Yeah seventies before putting that in the bio I also read that review that Taco has pointed out. I wouldn't have put it in there had I not felt good about its level of research.
It looks like a book and quote by a "passionate and knowledgeable hockey fan", like Pelletier said in his review. No different from the fans in this section and the participants in the ranking projects. I doubt there was any original research behind the book.

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Old
04-16-2012, 08:42 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
It looks like a book and quote by a "passionate and knowledgeable hockey fan", like Pelletier said in his review. No different from the fans in this section and the participants in the ranking projects. I doubt there was any original research behind the book.
I would agree. The author actually posted on these boards as Hockeyauthority trying to flog his book. I also remember he sent me a pm recommending the book.In neither case did he identify himself as the author. I read his Hull/Richard debate. No original thought. Just the same old cliches. Here is the thread.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...t=richard+hull

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04-16-2012, 09:51 PM
  #36
vecens24
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I was more impressed with this quote: "This assured me as a reader that the author really does know what he's talking about."

I'd say he's like a Pelletier. If we're going to use his website as a source, I see no reason to not use this book. Not saying it adds a ridiculous amount of value or anything lol.

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Old
04-16-2012, 10:24 PM
  #37
tarheelhockey
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One overarching theme I'd like to discuss at some point is the gradual development of the goalie from a skater into a non-skater. I know that this development happened, but I'd be challenged to talk about it in detail, in terms of individuals and timelines.

When I think about a guy like Hutton or Tom Paton, it's hard to appreciate exactly what they were doing so well as to be considered outstanding among their peers. That in turn makes me uneasy about giving them a blind vote based on team results.

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Old
04-17-2012, 10:17 AM
  #38
Rob Scuderi
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This isn't much but here's a start for Dave Kerr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Montreal Gazette - Sep 10, 1980
When Lorne (Gump) Worsley and Harry Lumley were inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame this week it re-opened a campaign by one of Montreal's smaller but enduring fan clubs, specifically "the Dave Kerr for Hall of Fame Society."

The paper had just landed on the doorstep yesterday when Terry (Aislin) Mosher phoned to say, "Gump and Lumley made it. Now's your chance to do something for Davey."

Somehow, the Hall of Fame selectors, who have installed more than their share of unworthies over the years, keep overlooking David Alexander Kerr, one of the best, if not the best goalie from 1930-1941 in the NHL. A native of Toronto, Kerr become a hero here when he led the MAAA Winged Wheelers to the Allan Cup in 1929. He joined the old Montreal Maroons in the NHL in the 1930-'31 season, but it was later with the New York Rangers that he had his best seasons.

The Gazette's Dink Carroll remembers him as a "cocky little guy with exceptional eyesight and a great right hand and extraordinary reflex. He said nobody could score on him on a breakaway or a penalty shot, and I can't remember anyone actually doing it. Like Ted Williams he went out of his way to protect his eyes, wearing sunglasses and refusing to look out a train window at the snow."

His career (10 years) goals-against average was 2.23 per game (less than Ken Dryden's 2.24) and in 1940, the last year the Rangers won the Stanley Cup, it was a phenomenal 1.60. He retired in 1941 when many of the Rangers' stars went into the armed forces (the club has never been the same again).

Dave Kerr's name came up for the selection to the hall in 1969 and in 1975, but Danny Gallivan, one of the selection committe, said he didn't get enough support.

But take heart, Kerr fans, it's coming up again in 1981.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Montreal Gazette - Sep 17, 1941
Kerr's announcement in Toronto that he is retiring from hockey was not entirely unexpected here. After winning the Vezina Trophy two years ago he was known to have felt disappointmen with his showing last year. He is 31, a veteran of 11 years in the NHL with Montreal Maroons and Rangers.
Nothing earth-shattering there, but at least we get the idea that those who viewed him believed he was HHOF worthy. Dink Carrol's perspective is interesting as well, and if I knew who Terry (Aislin) Mosher aside from what wikipedia tells me maybe I'd be more impressed.

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Old
04-19-2012, 10:25 PM
  #39
tarheelhockey
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For what it's worth, I went digging for additional goalies to add to the list, who may somehow have been missed by the fairly easy standard TDMM used. I feel pretty confident that all of the worthy NHL candidates are accounted for -- the best I could come up with were guys like Bill Beveridge and Jake Forbes, who have no chance of making this list.

The only name I would like to throw out there, since I know virtually nothing else about him, is Hal Winkler. This is what I have:

- playing career 1913-1931
- played senior hockey until age 30. Pro career was primarily spent in the western leagues.
- Goalie for the Edmonton Eskimos when they won the WHL and challenged Ottawa for the Stanley Cup. Arguably the top goalie in WHL history, a league which periodically included George Hainsworth, Hap Holmes and Hugh Lehman (all on our list).
- After a cup of coffee in New York, Winkler led Boston to a Final in 1927 and then posted a league-leading 15 shutouts in 1928.
- Left the NHL for the AHA where he posted a 0.98 GAA (incidentally, he replaced Tiny Thompson on that team); played a season in the PCHL, one in the Can-Am league, and retired.

I doubt very much that he did enough to warrant a top-30 spot, but he's the only possible candidate I can find who had NHL experience (and outstanding experience at that!) who isn't already on the list. And I do think he belongs on our list.

What I don't know is, subjectively, whether he was as good a goalie as the others.

Edit: BTW, I couldn't find any viable candidate in the PCHL or WHL except for those already included.

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Old
04-19-2012, 10:35 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
There was a great post from BM67 many years ago, comparing various goalies in regular season vs playoff stats. From what I remember, Broda was near the top in many categories, supporting his reputation as a great clutch goalie. Will try to dig up this post.

Edit: I think I was referring to this post - http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...6&postcount=34 - which shows that Broda has the best improvement in GAA and 4th best improvement in win percentage out of a sample of 22 elite goalies.

I'll point out that:

- this post is seven years out of date (though obviously that wouldn't affect Broda or the majority of the goalies listed)

- obviously some of Broda's improved playoff numbers is due to his teammates (the tricky part is trying to find out, ideally through first-hand contemporary accounts, how much of the improvement is attributable to Broda)

- ideally the change in GAA should be on a percentage basis rather than an absolute basis (for example, based on the 2005 numbers, which I realize are now out of date, Fuhr gets credit for a larger decrease in his playoff GAA than Brodeur, but Brodeur's GAA actually dropped by a slightly larger percentage - Fuhr in effect gets credit for playing in a higher-scoring era if we look at the absolute rather than percentage change)


Last edited by Hockey Outsider; 04-19-2012 at 10:45 PM..
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Old
04-25-2012, 12:21 PM
  #41
TheDevilMadeMe
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Profiles needed:

John Bouse Hutton
Paddy Moran
Alec Connell (done)
George Hainsworth (done)
Lorne Chabot
Wild Cude (done)
Dave Kerr
Bill Durnan (done)
Harry Lumley

As NHL era HHOFers, Connell, Hainsworth, Durnan, and Lumley are highest priority.

I would also like a newspaper-researched comparison of the playoff records of Hugh Lehman and Hap Holmes. Lehman appears to have widely been considered the best goalie in the PCHA, but Holmes has a much better playoff record. How much should be attributed to each goalie?

Hainsworth has a good profile now, but more research into his time in the OHA might be helpful.

If you plan on doing some of this, please post which guy you are researching, to break up the work.


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Old
05-01-2012, 12:14 PM
  #42
tarheelhockey
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George Hainsworth


“I’m sorry I can’t put on a show like some of the other goaltenders. I can’t look excited because I’m not. I can’t shout at other players because that’s not my style. I can’t dive on easy shots and make them look hard. I guess all I can do is stop pucks.”

Vitals
Born: June 26, 1895 in Berlin (Kitchener), Ontario
Died: October 9, 1950 (car accident)
Height: 5'6" / 1.68m
Weight: 150lb / 68kg
Caught: Right

Hardware

Vezina Trophy - 1927, 1928, 1929
Stanley Cup - 1930, 1931
Hockey Hall of Fame - 1961
The Hockey News' 100 Greatest Players - #46
Allan Cup (CAHA) - 1918


Records & Novelties

- Single-season shutouts - 22 in 1928-29
- Single-season GAA - 0.98 in 1928-29
- Won the Vezina each of the first 3 times it was awarded
- Second in career GAA, behind Alex Connell
- Third in career shutouts, behind Brodeur and Sawchuk
- One of 8 goaltenders to have served as captain of his team
- Shutout streak of 343 minutes is the longest in Montreal history and the second-longest in NHL history
- Toronto goaltender in the Ace Bailey Benefit Game
- Never missed the playoffs in his career, regardless of league.


Stats

Season Team League GP W L T Min GA SO GAA
1923–24 Saskatoon Crescents WCHL 30 15 12 3 1849 73 4 2.37
1924–25 Saskatoon Crescents WCHL 28 16 11 1 1700 75 2 2.65
1925–26 Saskatoon Sheiks WHL 30 18 11 1 1812 64 4 2.12
1926–27 Montreal Canadiens NHL 44 28 14 2 2732 67 14 1.47
1927–28 Montreal Canadiens NHL 44 26 11 7 2730 48 13 1.05
1928–29 Montreal Canadiens NHL 44 22 7 15 2800 43 22 0.92
1929–30 Montreal Canadiens NHL 42 20 13 9 2680 108 4 2.42
1930–31 Montreal Canadiens NHL 44 26 10 8 2740 89 0 1.95
1931–32 Montreal Canadiens NHL 48 25 16 7 2998 110 6 2.20
1932–33 Montreal Canadiens NHL 48 18 25 5 2980 115 8 2.32
1933–34 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 48 26 13 9 3010 119 3 2.37
1934–35 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 48 30 14 4 2957 111 8 2.25
1935–36 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 48 23 19 6 3000 106 8 2.12
1936–37 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 3 0 2 1 190 9 0 2.84
1936–37 Montreal Canadiens NHL 4 2 1 1 270 12 0 2.67

LeagueGPWLTMinGASOGAA
WCHL 88 49 34 5 5361 212 10 2.37
NHL 465 246 145 74 29,087 937 94 1.93
Pro Career 553 295 179 79 34,448 1149 104 2.00

PLAYOFFS

SeasonTeamLeagueWLTMinGASOGAA
1924-25 Saskatoon Crescents WCHL 2 0 1 1 120 6 0
1925-26 Saskatoon Sheiks WHL 2 0 1 1 129 4 0
1926-27 Montreal Canadiens NHL 4 1 1 2 252 6 1
1927-28 Montreal Canadiens NHL 2 0 1 1 128 3 0
1928-29 Montreal Canadiens NHL 3 0 3 0 180 5 0
1929-30 Montreal Canadiens NHL 6 5 0 1 481 6 3
1930-31 Montreal Canadiens NHL 10 6 4 0 722 21 2
1931-32 Montreal Canadiens NHL 4 1 3 0 300 13 0
1932-33 Montreal Canadiens NHL 2 0 1 1 120 8 0
1933-34 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 5 2 3 0 302 11 0
1934-35 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 7 3 4 0 460 12 2
1935-36 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 9 4 5 0 541 27 0
Total NHL MTL/TORNHL 52 22 25 5 3486 112 8

Pre-NHL



- Hainsworth played senior hockey for Berlin (later renamed Kitchener) until age 28, winning the Allan Cup in 1918.
- Went pro with Saskatoon of the WCHL, where he teamed with Bill and Bun Cook.
- In 3 seasons in the WCHL/WHL, he twice finished behind "Hap" Holmes for the league lead in GAA.

As a Hab



- After the WHL folded, Newsy Lalonde recommended Hainsworth to the Montreal Canadiens. He became an NHL 'rookie' in 1926, replacing the recently-deceased Georges Vezina.
- In each of his first 3 seasons as a Hab, Hainsworth won the newly created Vezina Trophy for the league's lowest GAA.
- 1928-29 was one of the most dominant seasons by any goaltender in history. See below for details. Forward passing rules were modernized the following season, preventing replication of the feat.
- Hainsworth led Montreal to consecutive Stanley Cups in 1930 and 1931.
- In 1932, having built an incredibly impressive resume over 5 seasons, Hainsworth was named captain of the Habs.
- In a move apparently motivated by ethnic politics, Hainsworth was traded to Toronto for Lorne Chabot the following season.


1928-29

On a statistical basis, Hainsworth's 1928-29 has never been equaled. His eye-popping 0.92 is still the the only sub-1.00 GAA in NHL history, and shattered the record of 1.05 that he set the previous season. Tiny Thompson was second in the league with a 1.15, which gives us a sense of how low-scoring the games were... and how unbelievably far ahead of his peers Hainsworth managed to finish. I'm not sure how many goalies have finished 25% ahead of the pack in GAA, but it's surely a very small and distinguished list.

In addition, Hainsworth set a second major record, which still stands, with 22 shutouts in a single season. This is made even more impressive when one notes that the season was only 44 games long. The second-best seasons, most recently achieved by Tony Esposito in 63 games, were 15 shutouts. This achievement capped a 3-year period in which Hainsworth posted 14, 13 and 22.

The following season, 1929-30, saw the league react by modernizing offside rules. This prevented the possibility of replicating his 1929 numbers, though he did finish 1930 with a respectable 3rd place in GAA and 2nd in shutouts.

Hainsworth was 31 years old in 1927 and 34 in 1930.


As a Leaf



After a rather callous trade out of Montreal, Hainsworth played respectably well for the Maple Leafs. He led the league in wins his first two seasons in Toronto, and fell only one short of the lead in his third year. While pushing age 40, he was one of the better statistical goalies of 1935. In 1935 and 1936 he helped the Leafs to consecutive Finals appearances. He was finally displaced by a young Turk Broda.

When Hainsworth played out a handful of games in Montreal to finish his career at age 41, he became the second-oldest NHL player to date (Hugh Lehman having played till 42, and not counting Lester Patrick's cameo) and remains one of only 10 to play more than a single game at that age.


Among pre-1950 goaltenders


Rk Name Seasons Active GPWinsGAASO Vezinas1st ASSCsHOF?
1Turk Broda1937-19505972882.5456224Y
2Tiny Thompson1929-19405532842.0881421Y
3Frank Brimsek1939-19505142522.7040222Y
4John Ross Roach1922-19354922192.465801*1N
5Roy Worters1926-19374841712.276710*0Y
6George Hainsworth1927-19374652461.939430*2Y
7Dave Kerr1931-19414272032.1551011N
8Alec Connell1925-19374171931.91810*0*2Y
9Lorne Chabot1927-19374122012.037111*2N
10Bill Durnan1944-19503832082.3634662Y
11Clint Benedict1918-19303621902.32570*0*3Y
12Mike Karakas1936-194633611429228001N
13Harry Lumley1944-19503251632.7526001Y
14Charlie Gardiner1928-19343161122.0242231Y
15Chuck Rayner1941-1950285973.1114000Y
16Wilf Cude1931-19412821002.7224000N
17Normie Smith1932-1945199812.3317112N
18Georges Vezina1918-19261901033.28130*0*3Y
19Johnny Mowers1941-1947152652.5615111N
20Hap Holmes1918-1928103392.431700*1Y
21Hal Winkler1927-192875351.602100*0N
22Hugh Lehman1927-192848202.68600*0Y

* = opportunities limited by career timing



Quote:
Originally Posted by The Calgary Daily Herald 3/1/1926
George Hainsworth - Saskatoon net guardian, who is considered to be the greatest in western hockey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Border Cities Star 10/25/1933
Hainsworth plays goal in a debonair, nonchalant fashion that at times looks to verge on actual carelessness, but isn't. And this isn't done for effect. He makes the tough shots look easy, but that happens to be Hainsworth's style, not a pose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Times 12/26/2009
Born in Toronto in 1895, Hainsworth was a roly-poly little man, just 5 feet 6 inches and 150 pounds. But for 14 seasons in the 1920s and ’30s he was, like Brodeur much later, the most consistently excellent goalie of his era.

While many marveled that Sawchuk’s shutout mark lasted 39 years before Brodeur broke it, Hainsworth’s has actually lasted far longer. He recorded his 104th and final regular-season shutout 73 years ago, in 1936.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Pelletier
Although his statistics were greatly aided by the pre-1930 rules, there is no doubt George Hainsworth was one of the greatest goalies of his era.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LOH
His miniscule 1.91 goals-against mark reflected the low scoring climate that existed during all but two of his seasons. Although the rule changes saw his average climb only late in his career, Hainsworth was one of the top backstoppers of his time.


Last edited by tarheelhockey; 05-16-2012 at 03:34 PM..
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Old
05-01-2012, 03:26 PM
  #43
Beef Invictus
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Great thread!

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05-01-2012, 07:54 PM
  #44
Mike Farkas
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Alec Connell "The Ottawa Fireman"
(actually a fireman, often incorrectly referred to as Alex)



Vitals:
Born: February 8, 1902 (Ottawa)
Died: May 10, 1958
Height: 5'9" - Weight: 150 lbs.
Catches: Right

Career:
Never played hockey previously
1919-1924 Various Ottawa teams in the OCHL (Cliffsides, St. Brigid's, Gunners)
1924-25 through 1930-31 Ottawa Senators (NHL)
1931-32 Detroit Falcons (NHL)
1932-33 Ottawa Senators (NHL)
1933-34 New York Americans (NHL) [40 minutes of 1 game as a substitute for Roy Worters who could not continue]
1934-35 & 1936-37 Montreal Maroons (NHL) [did not play in 1935-36]

Stanley Cup winner: 1926-27 Senators and 1934-35 Maroons

- Led the league in wins in 1926 and 1927 (finished top-3 on 3 other occasions)
- Led the league in GAA in 1926 (1.12); finished second on three occasions
- All-time career best goals against average in NHL history at 1.91. One of just two goalies that have a sub-2 GAA for their career (Hainsworth).
- Led the NHL in shutouts 4 times (1925, 1926, 1928, 1935), finished top-3 on 3 other occasions. 81 career shutouts still ranks t-6th in NHL history (Brodeur, Sawchuk, Hainsworth, Hall, Plante; tied with Hasek and Thompson). Was second all-time in shutouts for a substantial period of time.
- Owns NHL record for most consecutive shutouts (sometimes erroneous credited to Brian Boucher) with 6 in 1928 (461 minutes and 29 seconds)* (!)
* Many articles from the time note the time as 446 minutes and 9 seconds.

Line: 417 GP, 193-156-67, 1.91 GAA, 81 shutouts
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...conneal01.html

Information:

- Brought in to replace the legendary Clint Benedict who had been dealt to Montreal Maroons
- Ottawa team went on hiatus in 1931-32 and was loaned to Montreal Maroons
- Was a team captain at one point
- Retired on multiple occasions
- Though the year of his death and his HHOF induction were coincidental, he did live to see his induction but died shortly thereafter.
- Played catcher in baseball, won a championship in lacrosse (and was considered a star player in the sport), played football as well.
- Talked into playing hockey while stationed in Kingston during World War I. Had to play goalie because he could not skate (LOH)
- Noted for wearing a small black cap when he played
- Coached junior hockey after retiring as a player, also believed to have scouted for the Detroit Red Wings

Quotes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legends of Hockey
Maroons manager and coach, Tommy Gorman, called Connell's performance in the 1935 playoffs the "greatest goalkeeping performance in the history of hockey." He then provided some specifics: "It was in the Stanley Cup playoffs when the Maroons were two men short. For three minutes, Connell put on an astounding effort against the Leafs, and the Maroons went on to win the Cup." The Maroons, who were underdogs in the best-of-five series, won in three straight games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyGoalies.org
On April 7, 1928, Alex was a spectator at Game Two of the Stanley Cup Finals between the Montreal Maroons and New York Rangers. When starter Lorne Chabot became injured, New York coach Lester Patrick finished the game in net for the Rangers. Did you know that Patrick's first choice to replace Chabot was Connell? Although league rules at the time would have allowed it, Montreal coach Eddie Gerard refused to allow it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Manitoba Ensign - Apr. 2, 1949
(Referring to Connell's supposed last game of his career where he was shelled early and replaced). After seven years of ace-high performance, the crowd turned on Connell - he was a broken-hearted man
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Manitoba Ensign - Apr. 2, 1949
From the very first game (1934 with Montreal), Connell started stopping pucks in an inspired manner that culminated in a sensational display in the playoffs of that year. Maroons won the Stanley Cup and Tommy Gorman termed Connell, the "greatest of them all".
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Manitoba Ensign - Apr. 2, 1949
The following year Gorman sought to get Connell back as Maroons goalkeeper and offered him a $9,000 contract. [paraphrase] But Connell rejected due to his obligations to the fire department.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Manitoba Ensign - Apr. 2, 1949
Year after year he turned in steady and, at times, brilliant performances for the Senator club. In 1927, when Senators won the Stanley Cup in a bruising series with Boston, Connell starred as, time after time, he turned back Bruin scoring threats.
Note: Article suggests that in 1928 in a "36 game schedule", Connell "turned in 17 shutouts" - though nearly every statistic source has 15 shutouts in 44 games. Though it distinctly looks like an '8', it is probably referring to the 1926 season (actually a 36-game schedule) but it is nearly universally listed as a 15-shutout season for Connell. Again, the article suggests 17 (which I believe is second all-time in a season to Hainsworth?)

Also notes Connell six straight shutouts. Says he gave up 2 goals in the seventh game, followed by two additional shutuouts - for a nine-game run of 2 goals against (with 3 known overtime games) (0.21 GAA).

Anecdotally: Even with an article that referred to him as "Alec" to start, it still mistakenly lists him as Alex later in the very same article.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmonton Journal - Feb. 21, 1928
...has justified his unofficial title of "shut out" king of the National Hockey League by holding the opposing sharpshooters scoreless in six consecutive games. For six full playing periods of 60 minutes and three overtime sessions of 10 minutes each, Connell has guarded the Ottawa cage and thwarted the efforts of the league's best marksmen. ... Since the season opened the Senators have won six games by shutouts and have played in six scoreless ties. (note: Senators are 14-10-8 at this point in the season (32 GP)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa Citizen - May 10, 1958
In hockey, Connell first gained prominence when he joined the Cliffside hockey team in 1919 and promptly helped this Ottawa club to win the Allan Cup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa Citizen - May 10, 1958
"Alec gave one of the greatest goalkeeping performances in the playoffs that year that I ever saw. It was his finest moment." (Tommy Gorman on Connell's 1935 playoff performance)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saskatoon Star-Phoenix - May 12, 1958
(King Clancy) "To me, Alec was a grand competitor, a great fellow and a great friend-one of the outstanding goalies of his time." ||| (Frank Boucher) "Alec was a great credit to hockey and one of its best goalies." ||| (Frank Nighbor) "Alec was a fine sportsman and a fine gentleman. He was pretty hard to beat in any category."
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Montreal Gazette - Mar. 18, 1935
One bad night in Chicago when Connell was injured and Hawks scored six goals agaisnt him put a bad crimp in Alex's chances to take the [Vezina]. (Note: lost Vezina by four goals against)
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Border Cities Star - July 26, 1926
In the whirl of summer sport doings, an important piece of news was given very scant attention the other day - the fact that the Ottawa hockey club has signed goaler Alec Connell for a five-year term. This was announced by Pres. Frank Ahearn of the Ottawa club at the Capital the other day, and a sport scribe remarked to the Ottawa leader that if he got Connell for less than $5,000 per year, as hockey prices go today he got a bargain. "I got him for a great deal less than that," said President Ahearn. So he has a real bargain. Connell is possibly the greatest net-minder in the game today. That honor, curiously enough, rests pretty much between two Ottawa boys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Border Cities Star - July 26, 1926
...Connell and Benedict. It was a coincidence that both these figured in the final play-offs for the eastern title, and speaks significantly of the importance of the goaler to present-day hockey machines which, for the most part, are formulated and molded with a view to keeping scores down rather than scoring goals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Border Cities Star - July 26, 1926
Team after team was turned back scoreless before his keen eye, and alert hands and feet. Of course, he had in front of him a team which, defensively, out-classed any other in the League, with the amazing poke-check of Nighbor that breaks up countless attacks the fast-skating wings and the cleverness of Boucher and Clancy. But even when, in the closing match of the great play-off series with Montreal Maroons, this mighty machine cracked wide-open under relentless pressure, the slim figure of Connell stood, a mighty barrier, that held the crashing, driving Montrealers to one lone score. ...Connell, the imperturable, with his immobile face, his eagle eye, his lightning hands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pittsburgh Press - Dec. 21, 1925
Alec Connell, goal, has had fewer goals scoredon him than any other net guardian so far this season and has made the most sensational debut of any goalie since John Ross Roach broke in with Toronto. Had seven shut-out games last year, four so far this season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Montreal Gazette - Nov. 18, 1931
Ever since midway through the second period they (Bruins) had assumed the offensive, with Falcons apparently content to play for a tie, a scoreless one if possible. And Connell, in the Detroit goal, seemed to be of the same opinion as he turned back shot after shot, sometimes with his stick, sometimes with his hands, sometimes with his chest and sometimes with his feet. The Bruins attacked from all sides and tried everything, often comign in alone on the athlete who last year had guarded the citadel of the Ottawa club, now defunct. ... Numberous opportunites were missed by both sides, although the Bruins, playing wide-open hockey in this season's opener, were surging in on Connell, who had 46 stops to only 22 for Tiny Thompson...
Decent foundation for a profile I hope, as I'm still getting my feet wet in the study of history, many of my books don't detail back into Connell's era, unfortunately.

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05-02-2012, 01:37 PM
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Good work guys.

One thing though - the Vezina always went to the goalie with the lowest GAA. I know that before 1946, the award description said "most valuable" goalie, but in reality, the guy with the lowest GAA always got it and there never appears to have been a vote. Seems like in 1946, they just codified existing practice. Roy Worters profile indicates that he was a "First Team All Star" 4 times. I assume these are the GM-voted teams before 1930. We do have the full results of one such team - 1928 when Worters got 1st team and Hainsworth 2nd Team during one of Hainsworth's Vezina seasons.

I'm especially interested in what Hainsworth did before coming to the NHL: Iain Fyffe seems to think his OHA career was very impressive: http://hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.com...1920s.html?m=1

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05-04-2012, 01:05 PM
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TDMM, in terms of research, I think I have exhausted my resources on Connell. I know there are books out there that some possess here that can provide more detail, but I don't have those.

I'll try to get another one started as time permits, provided they are looked upon as a good foundation for research.

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05-04-2012, 01:13 PM
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Books are okay as secondary sources, but the best sources are first hand newspaper accounts from people who saw them play

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05-05-2012, 07:59 AM
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I'll pick up Hainsworth's OHA career as soon as I'm able and add it to his profile. Also, I'll fix that table to include all pre-1950 Vezinas, since there's no sense excluding 1946-50 (to Durnan and Broda's disadvantage) if the standards didn't really change. Might also add another column for AS awards, though I have to admit I find the format of that era terribly confusing.

I'll probably get to it on Monday.

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05-07-2012, 11:26 PM
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Here's what I could find in some first-steps research of Hainsworth's OHA career.

Note that "Berlin City" was the original name of Kitchener, Ont., which changed its name after the first World War.

Season Age Team Lg GP W L T/O GAA SO
1912-13 17 Berlin City Seniors OHA-Sr. 4 3 1 3.00 1  
1913-14 18 Berlin City Seniors OHA-Sr. 7 7 0 1.57 0  
1914-15 19 Berlin City Seniors OHA-Sr. 5 5 0 1.80 1  
1915-16 20 Berlin City Seniors OHA-Sr. 8 8 0 2.25 1  
1917-18 22 Kitchener Greenshirts OHA-Sr. 9 9 0 3.44 0  
1918-19 23 Kitchener Greenshirts OHA-Sr. 9 5 3 2.95 0  
1919-20 24 Kitchener Greenshirts OHA-Sr. 8 6 2 2.00 1  
1920-21 25 Kitchener Greenshirts OHA-Sr. 10 7 3 2.20 3  
1921-22 26 Kitchener Greenshirts OHA-Sr. 10 3 7 3.80 1  
1922-23 27 Kitchener Greenshirts OHA-Sr. 12 8 4 2.67 1  

Bolded numbers indicate categories in which Hainsworth led the OHA. One might imagine that he was considered the premier goaltender in the league for quite some time, based on his numbers.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Toronto World 3/4/1914
Hainsworth in goal put up a great exhibition and his phenomenal work received a lot of applause that was well deserved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toronto World 3/7/1914
[Orilla] outplayed [Berlin] in the first half, but had no luck in scoring. The grand work of Hainsworth in goal was responsible to a large extent for this, and, altho most of his stops were cleanly made, he was lucky to get away with a number of others, which were almost impossible to judge accurately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toronto World 2/18/1915
While Berlin were playing two men short the locals could not beat Hainsworth. For Berlin all played well, but Hainsworth and Hillier were the stars.
Hainsworth was the goaltender when Kitchener won the Allan Cup, the championship of senior hockey, in 1918. The scores of the two-game, most-goals series were as follows:

Winnipeg Ypres 3 Kitchener Greenshirts 2
Kitchener Greenshirts 4 Winnipeg Ypres 1


I don't mean to imply that he was a passenger on that team, but the newspaper articles I have read don't indicate that he was a primary reason for their title run. The semifinal game was won by a score of 23-2, and Hainsworth is scarcely mentioned in the recaps as a standout player. The quote below is from the second game:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toronto World 3/15/1918

The whole story is summed up in the fact that Winnipeg found they could do nothing under the checking. It was Kitchener's only hope, and they clamped it down so tight that before the first period was over it was seen that a continuance of it would pull out a win and keep the cup east.
In sum, it's clear that Hainsworth was the preeminent goaltender of the OHA for quite some time. He repeatedly led the league in major statistical categories and the "eyeball test" afforded us by newspaper articles confirms that he was spectacular at times. It's uncertain whether he was a deciding factor in the Allan Cup run, given the team's strong defensive performance.

-------------------------------------

In digesting this information, I'd really like some input from board members who are familiar with the quality of the OHA during this time period. Here is what Hockey Historysis has to say:

Quote:
Hainsworth gets credit for this time in the OHA, which was a high-quality league at the time and cannot simply be ignored because it was not professional.

Quote:
The second quote above, referring to Laflamme joining the Torontos, comes from a time that several strong offers were made by NHA Toronto teams for his services. Laflamme ultimately did not accept the offer, and did not turn professional. This likely had nothing to do with desires to remain "pure", but instead reflected the fact that "amateur" players often made as much as the pros did at the time.

Had he joined the Toronto Hockey Club, Laflamme would have been a very good NHA player, judging by his Point Allocation results. Not a superstar certainly, but a highly effective man. Toronto didn't make out so badly, of course. Not being able to sign Laflamme, they instead added a teammate of his to play centre the following season in future Hall-of-Famer Frank Foyston. As good as Laflamme was, Foyston was certainly the better man.
My brief impression of Hainsworth's OHA is that it was populated by some pro-quality players including HOF'ers like Hainsworth and Foyston, but that there were also quite a few genuine amateurs who made for easy nights in goal -- the result being a great disparity between the deep and shallow ends of the talent pool. A rough comparable might be modern college sports, where some games are played at a semi-professional level and others are just ordinary amateur competition. But that's just an impression... I'd really like to confirm or dismiss it before I judge Hainsworth's achievements in that atmosphere.


Last edited by tarheelhockey; 05-07-2012 at 11:37 PM..
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05-10-2012, 02:53 AM
  #50
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This is an updated version of the chart I posted in Hainsworth's profile (which has also been updated). Hopefully it will be of some use.

Among pre-1950 goaltenders


Rk Name Seasons Active GPWinsGAASO Vezinas1st ASSCsHOF?
1Turk Broda1937-19505972882.5456224Y
2Tiny Thompson1929-19405532842.0881421Y
3Frank Brimsek1939-19505142522.7040222Y
4John Ross Roach1922-19354922192.465801*1N
5Roy Worters1926-19374841712.276710*0Y
6George Hainsworth1927-19374652461.939430*2Y
7Dave Kerr1931-19414272032.1551111N
8Alec Connell1925-19374171931.91810*0*2Y
9Lorne Chabot1927-19374122012.037111*2N
10Bill Durnan1944-19503832082.3634662Y
11Clint Benedict1918-19303621902.32570*0*3Y
12Mike Karakas1936-194633611429228001N
13Harry Lumley1944-19503251632.7526001Y
14Charlie Gardiner1928-19343161122.0242231Y
15Chuck Rayner1941-1950285973.1114000Y
16Wilf Cude1931-19412821002.7224000N
17Normie Smith1932-1945199812.3317112N
18Georges Vezina1918-19261901033.28130*0*3Y
19Johnny Mowers1941-1947152652.5615111N
20Hap Holmes1918-1928103392.431700*1Y
21Hal Winkler1927-192875351.602100*0N
22Hugh Lehman1927-192848202.68600*0Y


Last edited by tarheelhockey; 05-14-2012 at 04:44 PM.. Reason: Missed a Vezina
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