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Goalies before 1950 research thread

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Old
05-15-2012, 02:09 PM
  #101
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Hmm that's interesting. I always assumed it reverted in '47. Good to know it didn't. Feel free to edit that bio from earlier saying that they were voted on.

In any regard it doesn't matter as applied to Durnan since he also won the First Team All Star each year.
Out of curiosity, why did you think it reverted in 1947? You're the third person on here to think that recently (Iain Fyffe earlier and tarheel in this thread). Is it because of the wikipedia article? Hfboards HOH canon had the Vezina Award of the time as equal to the Jennings before I came to this board

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05-15-2012, 02:12 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Out of curiosity, why did you think it reverted in 1947? You're the third person on here to think that recently (Iain Fyffe earlier and tarheel in this thread). Is it because of the wikipedia article? Hfboards HOH canon had the Vezina Award of the time as equal to the Jennings before I came to this board
I'm sure that it was initially the Wikipedia article and I never got set straight on it. I've just always thought it was that way.

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05-15-2012, 02:46 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
This is from the 1927-28 all-star voting, when Worters was still playing for Pittsburgh.

Leonard Cohen, March 24, 1928 New York Evening Post:


It appears that Worters was considered to be playing behind a weak defense, and the managers didn't feel that his stats reflected his performance.

Cohen didn't even mention Hainsworth, who had by far the best GAA that season, but the 10 managers voted Hainsworth (1-4 voting points) to the second all-star team that season behind Worters (7-1).
Wow, only half the leagueís GMs even thought Hainsworth was one of the two best, even with those numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Out of curiosity, why did you think it reverted in 1947? You're the third person on here to think that recently (Iain Fyffe earlier and tarheel in this thread). Is it because of the wikipedia article? Hfboards HOH canon had the Vezina Award of the time as equal to the Jennings before I came to this board
I think I misinterpreted tarheel if thatís what he thought. I kept referring to it as the Jennings because thatís what it was. Was he actually questioning why there was a discrepancy between the two because he thought they were both voted on? That would make more sense. For example, it would be strange if there was a large incongruity today between the 1st AST and the Vezina winner (which there isnít) but not strange at all if the Jennings and Vezina winners rarely matched (and they rarely do)

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05-15-2012, 02:46 PM
  #104
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Both the HHOF site and NHL.com have the same description of the Vezina:

Quote:
Until the 1981-82 season, the goalkeeper(s) of the team allowing the fewest number of goals during the regular season were awarded the Vezina Trophy.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=24965
http://www.hhof.com/htmlSilverware/s...shvezina.shtml

The wikipedia article needs some serious editing.

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05-15-2012, 03:10 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Why do you think the first three were voted on? Edit: this quite makes it sound like the Vezina was voted on, but why do we never have records of vote totals? And why did it go to the goalie with the lowest GAA 100% of the time? Double Edit: See the last quote from post 98. The quote has been "cleverly" abridged to remove the reference to GAA.

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix, March 20, 1946


Re: the playoffs, I think am the biggest part of the case for Broda over Durnan is that Broda usually outperformed him head to head in the playoffs. I'm not sure if it's something worth exploring now, or if it should be saved for round 2 of the project
They played once head-to-head in the playoffs, in '47 with Broda and the Leafs winning 4-2. I havent gone quote hunting yet, but Durnan had a shutout, one 1 Goal against game, Two 2 goal against games, and two four goals against games. Last three games of the series he never gave up more than two. Broda gave up 6 the first game, then was great. However one series head-to-head shouldn't give Broda the reputation of always out playing Durnan in the playoffs.

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05-15-2012, 03:27 PM
  #106
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I'm pretty sure the wiki article is where I got the idea that the Vezina changed in '47. I use that page frequently as a reference list of winners.

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05-15-2012, 06:44 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
They played once head-to-head in the playoffs, in '47 with Broda and the Leafs winning 4-2. I havent gone quote hunting yet, but Durnan had a shutout, one 1 Goal against game, Two 2 goal against games, and two four goals against games. Last three games of the series he never gave up more than two. Broda gave up 6 the first game, then was great. However one series head-to-head shouldn't give Broda the reputation of always out playing Durnan in the playoffs.
The Durnan vs Broda playoff knock mostly comes from the fact that Durnan only won the Cup when Broda was not in the playoffs, once due to the war, and once due to the Leafs missing the playoffs.

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05-15-2012, 07:40 PM
  #108
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Does anyone have access to this article?

[2] "Frank Calder to deal with Art Ross". Toronto Star: p.10. May 16, 1927.

It is the only citation given by Wikipedia that the Vezina was originally to go to "the most valuable goaltender in the league."

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05-16-2012, 08:09 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Does anyone have access to this article?

[2] "Frank Calder to deal with Art Ross". Toronto Star: p.10. May 16, 1927.

It is the only citation given by Wikipedia that the Vezina was originally to go to "the most valuable goaltender in the league."
Montreal Gazette, May 16, 1927

Paragraph one up from the bottom.

"The trophy is to be awarded each year to the goalkeeper in the National Hockey League having the best average."

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05-16-2012, 09:58 AM
  #110
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What a great thread, kudos for the work put into the profiles and such. I remember a lot of the names in this thread when I was a goalie fanatic when I was a kid.

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05-16-2012, 10:08 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Montreal Gazette, May 16, 1927

Paragraph one up from the bottom.

"The trophy is to be awarded each year to the goalkeeper in the National Hockey League having the best average."
Yeah I think this pretty much beyond a shadow of a doubt proves that the Vezina was equal to the Jennings through '27- '46.

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05-16-2012, 02:55 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Yeah I think this pretty much beyond a shadow of a doubt proves that the Vezina was equal to the Jennings through '27- '46.
I can edit the "history" section of the wikipedia page myself, but the 1927-1945 winners and 1946-1981 winners really should be collapsed into a single section, and I have no idea how to do that.

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05-16-2012, 03:27 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
George Hainsworth


- In each of his first 3 seasons as a Hab, Hainsworth won the newly created Vezina Trophy. * note that these were "real" Vezinas, not GAA-based- 1928-29 was one of the most dominant seasons by any goaltender in history. See below for details. Forward passing rules were modernized the following season, preventing replication of the feat.- Hainsworth led Montreal to consecutive Stanley Cups in 1930 and 1931.

Is the bolded confirmed?

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05-16-2012, 03:32 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post


1) Who is "campaigning"? This is the research thread. I was asked to write a bio and did. That bio has led to some provocative questions which we are exploring. I certainly hope this project isn't going to be some kind of staging ground for ATD arguments, if that's what is happening here.

2) I also hope you're not serious about comparing the achievements of Hainsworth to those of Turek and Turco. Hainsworth's peak is quite obviously worthy of attention in this project and the question of low AS/Hart voting is completely relevant here.
I'm glad i'm not the only one. I feel Hainsworth gets criminally underrated around here.

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05-16-2012, 03:46 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Is the bolded confirmed?
Just above in this thread, it was confirmed (to be false.)

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05-16-2012, 04:30 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Is the bolded confirmed?
Oops, forgot about that line. Going back to change it.

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05-17-2012, 06:12 PM
  #117
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Copied the Connell and Hainsworth profiles to the beginning of the thread. Vecens, are you done with the Durnan one?

If anyone has a subscription to the NY Times archives, I think you could relatively quickly put together a profile for Dave Kerr, which includes the two articles BBS posted in post 38.

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05-18-2012, 02:05 PM
  #118
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Started a major re-write of the Vezina Trophy article on wikipedia. First 3 paragraphs in the history section are newly edited or created.

At this point, I'm probably going to just scrub any reference of a change in 1946 from happening, since it didn't actually happen.

One question - does anyone know when the NHL officially made the change to allow teammates to both hold the trophy if each played in the minimum number of games? That's something that should be cited, but isn't.

Also LOL @ vecens for your comments as "hockeygenius" in the talk section.

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05-18-2012, 03:32 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Started a major re-write of the Vezina Trophy article on wikipedia. First 3 paragraphs in the history section are newly edited or created.

At this point, I'm probably going to just scrub any reference of a change in 1946 from happening, since it didn't actually happen.

One question - does anyone know when the NHL officially made the change to allow teammates to both hold the trophy if each played in the minimum number of games? That's something that should be cited, but isn't.

Also LOL @ vecens for your comments as "hockeygenius" in the talk section.
The change in 1946 is a change from the goalie with the best average to the goalie on the team with the fewest goals against. This would come into play in 1955 where Lumley had a better GAA than Sawchuck, but Detroit gave up one fewer GA.

There weren't two winners until 1965, but the first time two goalies were listed as runner-up was in 1958, so one would assume it was before then.

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05-18-2012, 04:02 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
The change in 1946 is a change from the goalie with the best average to the goalie on the team with the fewest goals against. This would come into play in 1955 where Lumley had a better GAA than Sawchuck, but Detroit gave up one fewer GA.
I thought that too, but then I remembered that George Hainsworth was 3rd in GAA in 1926-27:

1. Clint Benedict*-MTM 1.42
2. Lorne Chabot-NYR 1.46
3. George Hainsworth*-MTL 1.47
4. Alec Connell*-OTS 1.49

However, Benedict and Chabot each had their backups play a few games with terrible GAAs, so Hainsworth's team, Montreal, finished with the lowest GAA:

Montreal Canadiens 67
Montreal Maroons 68
Ottawa Senators 69
New York Rangers 72
Boston Bruins 89
New York Americans 91
Toronto Maple Leafs 94
Detroit Cougars 105
Pittsburgh Pirates 108
Chicago Black Hawks 116

Edit: I realize that we all like to be smart and all, but maybe we should accept that NHL.com and HHOF.com are correct when they both use the exact same wording:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHL.com
Until the 1981-82 season, the goalkeeper(s) of the team allowing the fewest number of goals during the regular season were awarded the Vezina Trophy
http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=24965
Quote:
Originally Posted by HHOF.com
Until the 1981-82 season, the goalkeeper(s) of the team allowing the fewest number of goals during the regular season were awarded the Vezina Trophy.
http://www.hhof.com/htmlSilverware/s...shvezina.shtml


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 05-18-2012 at 04:15 PM.
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05-18-2012, 04:05 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
There weren't two winners until 1965, but the first time two goalies were listed as runner-up was in 1958, so one would assume it was before then.
The change happened in the summer of 1965 - Terry Sawchuk had 36 games played to Johnny Bower's 34, and was going to be the sole winner of the 1964-65 Vezina. He said that if Bower couldn't be a co-winner, he wouldn't accept the trophy.

So the rules were changed in the summer of 1965, and then retroactively applied to Sawchuk/Bower.

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05-18-2012, 04:06 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
The change happened in the summer of 1965 - Terry Sawchuk had 36 games played to Johnny Bower's 34, and was going to be the sole winner of the 1964-65 Vezina. He said that if Bower couldn't be a co-winner, he wouldn't accept the trophy.

So the rules were changed in the summer of 1965, and then retroactively applied to Sawchuk/Bower.
Cool, thanks. I'll make sure to include that in round 2 of the re-write of the article. Do you have a source? (I assume it shouldn't be hard to find if I know the season)

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05-18-2012, 04:16 PM
  #123
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I'll see what I can find - I've heard it a few times, but I think that I just read it again the other day (which is why it's in my head), so I'll see if I can find that.

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05-18-2012, 04:22 PM
  #124
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Correct

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
The change happened in the summer of 1965 - Terry Sawchuk had 36 games played to Johnny Bower's 34, and was going to be the sole winner of the 1964-65 Vezina. He said that if Bower couldn't be a co-winner, he wouldn't accept the trophy.

So the rules were changed in the summer of 1965, and then retroactively applied to Sawchuk/Bower.
Correct - from memory the back-up had to have played in a minimum of 25 games.

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05-18-2012, 04:31 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Correct - from memory the back-up had to have played in a minimum of 25 games.
That's the rule after it was changed (and is still the rule).

The rule at the time was that the goaltender with the greatest number of games played was the (sole) winner, even if it was as close as it was in 1964-65.

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