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Foster Hewitt Divisional Semifinals: Inglewood vs. Cincinatti

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Old
04-18-2012, 03:55 PM
  #76
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If you define "peak" as "best single season," I don't think Moose has a season that compares to Herb's Hart winning year.
If we're going to go down to 1 season as a peak, then why don't we just narrow it down to one game? Moose Johnson had seasons where he was the best defenseman in the world.

Gardiner won the Hart when it wasn't generally awarded to the "best player". How much exactly does that award mean?

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
If we are suppose to believe Johnson would have bettered a Hart and then 2nd AST selection in 2 of his years then we may as well pack up and leave.
Start packing.....

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04-18-2012, 03:56 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Haha thank you for responding to that for me, I literally laughed out loud that Gardiners best two seasons (Which I posted as peak) are far better then Johnsons is due to my "bias".

If we are suppose to believe Johnson would have bettered a Hart and then 2nd AST selection in 2 of his years then we may as well pack up and leave.
Why is Gardiner's 2nd Team better than any of Johnson's 1st Teams in a split league?

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04-18-2012, 03:57 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Why is Gardiner's 2nd Team better than any of Johnson's 1st Teams in a split league?
Bias

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04-18-2012, 03:57 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Take a 2nd look at Ellis in the playoffs.

Does Overpass have a chart showing ESP for both Pulford and Ellis?
what am I looking for in the playoffs?

Pulford's ESP by season:

15, 21, 29, 41, 26, 31, 38, 40, 32, 42, 35, 36, 25, 28, 29, 30

Ellis' ESP by season:

27, 32, 33, 43, 37, 41, 43, 35, 40, 39, 42, 44, 23, 22

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04-18-2012, 03:57 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
If we're going to go down to 1 season as a peak, then why don't we just narrow it down to one game? Moose Johnson had seasons where he was the best defenseman in the ....
Which seasons? Over who?

I mean, I think Johnson is obviously better than Gardiner overall, but when was he ever the best defenseman in the world, period?

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04-18-2012, 04:05 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Which seasons? Over who?

I mean, I think Johnson is obviously better than Gardiner overall, but when was he ever the best defenseman in the world, period?
Best defenseman, period? No, among the best, and having the best season? Yes

1917 over Sprague Cleghorn

When I owned Frank Patrick, I went through my consolidated scoring records to award my own retro Norris trophies for that era. In 1917, I would have given it to Moose. He was only a couple adjusted points behind Patrick and Cleghorn, and he was better defensively than both.

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04-18-2012, 04:26 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Thanks for stopping by, another great contribution. Even with the shortage of insformation we have Gardiner has by far the better peak.
You've admitted in this thread that you don't know much about Johnson (and have also mentioned that you have a hard time finding info on Gardiner), yet you're this confident that Gardiner has *by far* the better peak?

Moose Johnson is regarded by every source I've seen as a top-2 defenseman of his era with Sprague Cleghorn. He excelled on both sides of the puck, was a great leader, a complete warrior, and a fantastic performer in the clutch. He had teams in the NHA and PCHA fighting over his rights. He was a PCHA first-team allstar in 8 consecutive seasons (with a 9th selection on the 2nd team). In his second-last season, the PCHA held a Moose Johnson night where they crowned him the greatest defenseman in league history. For an active player, that says something.

Just how good do you think Herb Gardiner was?

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I think that if the Boucher - Watson are out against the Mikita line they would run into some trouble with their speed.
Why? They were both strong skaters. I can say with confidence that there are no footspeed issues on my blueline. All my defensemen can skate. They all have good hockey sense. They all pass well, and 5 of the 6 can be counted on to make a difference offensively. And most importantly, they're all good in their own zone.


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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Also in terms of overall 3rd lines i'm not impressed with the wingers flanking Rod the bod. Rod is a great 3rd line centre but those wingers are fairly below average.
Ron Ellis is a great 3rd line winger. A very strong even-strength goal scorer, a constant breakaway threat due to his speed (something to watch out for with the puck-moving ability of my defense), and an excellent defensive winger who was used to check Bobby Hull, Valeri Kharlamov, Frank Mahovlich, etc. You should read some quotes about his work on Kharlamov in 1972. Here's an example:

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I think we won because Ron Ellis shut him [Kharlamov] down. I think Kharlamov only scored one goal after the second game. It wasn't like he was killing us. Everybody talks about (Paul) Henderson but not enough people realize Henderson doesn't even get those chances if it's not for Ellis' defensive play. - Bobby Clarke


Ross Lonsberry was a very good two-way player, and a guy who worked his butt off up and down the ice. Fred Shero absolutely loved the guy. He was a consistent 50 point guy who was noted for his ability to dig for the puck and play both sides of the ice. He was often used as a defensive matchup against the opposition's top wingers. He's not a 3rd line superstar, but I think he's pretty comparable to Mario Tremblay on our respective 3rd lines.

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When the Philadelphia Flyers won the Stanley Cup in 1974, guess who head coach Fred Shero declared was the Flyers most valuable player of the championship season? Bobby Clarke? Reggie Leach? Bernie Parent? Try Ross Lonsberry.

"I knew Lonsberry would be good because I've seen him play for ten years," said Shero. "But he's been unbelievable this year. He has more stamina than Bobby Clarke, and he's been the key man in a lot of games. He's done everything for us."

Lonsberry often played on a line with Rick MacLeish and Gary Dornhoefer. His job was often to shut down the league's top right wingers like Yvan Cournoyer and Rod Gilbert.

http://broadstreetbullies.blogspot.c...lonsberry.html


Last edited by arrbez: 04-18-2012 at 05:53 PM.
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04-18-2012, 09:35 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
You've admitted in this thread that you don't know much about Johnson (and have also mentioned that you have a hard time finding info on Gardiner), yet you're this confident that Gardiner has *by far* the better peak?

I know enough that his best two year peak wouldn't be beat a Hart and 2nd team AST (as a 35-36 year old nonetheless)


Quote:
Moose Johnson is regarded by every source I've seen as a top-2 defenseman of his era with Sprague Cleghorn. He excelled on both sides of the puck, was a great leader, a complete warrior, and a fantastic performer in the clutch. He had teams in the NHA and PCHA fighting over his rights. He was a PCHA first-team allstar in 8 consecutive seasons (with a 9th selection on the 2nd team). In his second-last season, the PCHA held a Moose Johnson night where they crowned him the greatest defenseman in league history. For an active player, that says something.

Just how good do you think Herb Gardiner was?

Again, he was good enough to win a Hart and a 2nd team AST as a 36 year old. Who was Johnson competition during his time in the PCHA?



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Why? They were both strong skaters. I can say with confidence that there are no footspeed issues on my blueline. All my defensemen can skate. They all have good hockey sense. They all pass well, and 5 of the 6 can be counted on to make a difference offensively. And most importantly, they're all good in their own zone.
Can skate and "good" in their own zone. that's pretty broad. Are Any of your defenseman above average skaters or defensive dmen in an ATD sense?


Quote:
Ron Ellis is a great 3rd line winger. A very strong even-strength goal scorer, a constant breakaway threat due to his speed (something to watch out for with the puck-moving ability of my defense), and an excellent defensive winger who was used to check Bobby Hull, Valeri Kharlamov, Frank Mahovlich, etc. You should read some quotes about his work on Kharlamov in 1972. Here's an example:
We can see from 70's compariosn above that Pulford was right there with him for ESP. Now factor in Pulfords better playoff resume and defensive repuatation, it looks like Pulford is clearly the better winger.



Quote:
Ross Lonsberry was a very good two-way player, and a guy who worked his butt off up and down the ice. Fred Shero absolutely loved the guy. He was a consistent 50 point guy who was noted for his ability to dig for the puck and play both sides of the ice. He was often used as a defensive matchup against the opposition's top wingers. He's not a 3rd line superstar, but I think he's pretty comparable to Mario Tremblay on our respective 3rd lines.
So he worked his butt off and Shero liked him? For god sakes that can be said about any bottom 6 player. Is it really necessary to compare Pulford-Tremblay to Ellis-Lonsberry?

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04-18-2012, 09:37 PM
  #84
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The Fireworks have the clear edge for 2nd lines, 3rd lines, 1st pairings and both PP and PK.

Outside of Inglewoods Top line they are a fairly thin team.

I've asked now 2-3 times, i'm still wanting to know on how Inglewood plans on matching up against my top 2 lines?

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04-18-2012, 10:12 PM
  #85
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Wait mark, he has both of the two best third liners in this series, but yours is better?

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04-18-2012, 10:48 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Again, he was good enough to win a Hart and a 2nd team AST as a 36 year old. Who was Johnson competition during his time in the PCHA?
Lester Patrick, for starters, who was also a better defenseman than Gardiner. Why are you trying to "prove" that Gardiner is better than Johnson by saying he won an award that Johnson never had the opportunity to, especially when you yourself were on the "don't discredit guys for not winning things that didn't exist" bandwagon? Doesn't suit you now, so you don't care, right?

Gardiner possibly has the best single season between them.. but that's it. Johnson's 2nd-last best seasons are all better than anything else Gardiner ever did. The comparison isn't even there to make.. Johnson is a far superior defenseman to Gardiner.. and he should be, he's on a 1st pairing compared to your Gardiner being on a 2nd pairing!

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04-18-2012, 10:50 PM
  #87
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Wait mark, he has both of the two best third liners in this series, but yours is better?
ATD 2012: Pulford 308 Ellis 403
ATD 2011: Pulford 285 Ellis 346
ATD 2010: Pulford 284 Ellis 354
ATD 12 : Pulford 269 Ellis 352


So you're telling me that fot the past 4 years it's just a coincidence that Pulford was drafted min. 70 picks before Ellis every year Is this the type of arguement I have to defend? Honest to god

I guess every GM for the past (at least 4 years havent bothered to go back further) have just swung and missed with Pulford and Ellis every draft.

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04-18-2012, 10:56 PM
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Lester Patrick, for starters, who was also a better defenseman than Gardiner. Why are you trying to "prove" that Gardiner is better than Johnson by saying he won an award that Johnson never had the opportunity to, especially when you yourself were on the "don't discredit guys for not winning things that didn't exist" bandwagon? Doesn't suit you now, so you don't care, right?

Gardiner possibly has the best single season between them.. but that's it. Johnson's 2nd-last best seasons are all better than anything else Gardiner ever did. The comparison isn't even there to make.. Johnson is a far superior defenseman to Gardiner.. and he should be, he's on a 1st pairing compared to your Gardiner being on a 2nd pairing!
Haha your arguement contradicts every thing we have on Gardiner? You took the bait Jarek.

So we don't have information on Gardiner playing in the WCHL and out West etc.. so we give him next to no credit.

AND YET Johnson "didn't have the opportunity" to win a Hart so we can't say if he would have or not

Gardiner didn't have an opportunity to play in a league with a lot more historical data and articles and we don't use that in his favour now do we?


Sure logic would tell us that Johnson may have been able to be voted to an NHL All star team but it didn't happen

Logic would also tell us that if Herb Gardiner could win a Hart at age 35 that his earlier years would have been that much more impressive as well.

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04-18-2012, 11:00 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
ATD 2012: Pulford 308 Ellis 403
ATD 2011: Pulford 285 Ellis 346
ATD 2010: Pulford 284 Ellis 354
ATD 12 : Pulford 269 Ellis 352


So you're telling me that fot the past 4 years it's just a coincidence that Pulford was drafted min. 70 picks before Ellis every year Is this the type of arguement I have to defend? Honest to god

I guess every GM for the past (at least 4 years havent bothered to go back further) have just swung and missed with Pulford and Ellis every draft.
I will never understand why people use draft position like it means something post-draft. Yes I think it is possible to me Ellis is a better ES player than Pulford.

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04-18-2012, 11:02 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
ATD 2012: Pulford 308 Ellis 403
ATD 2011: Pulford 285 Ellis 346
ATD 2010: Pulford 284 Ellis 354
ATD 12 : Pulford 269 Ellis 352


So you're telling me that fot the past 4 years it's just a coincidence that Pulford was drafted min. 70 picks before Ellis every year Is this the type of arguement I have to defend? Honest to god

I guess every GM for the past (at least 4 years havent bothered to go back further) have just swung and missed with Pulford and Ellis every draft.
Using past draft position is a very poor way of defending a player, but I agree with you that Pulford is better than Ellis. He might be better than Brind'amour too.

Though Inglewood doesnt really have a top power forward to check, which is where a lot of pulford's value is.

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04-18-2012, 11:03 PM
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I will never understand why people use draft position like it means something post-draft. Yes I think it is possible to me Ellis is a better ES player than Pulford.
SHOW US??

Pulford has been looked upon as one of the top 10 defensive forwards of all time? Read around this site? Do I really need to post some quotes reffering to his defensive play?

Not to mention his clutch playoff scoring compared to Ellis lackluster playoff resume, stop cluttering this thread with such rubbish.

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04-18-2012, 11:05 PM
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Using past draft position is a very poor way of defending a player, but I agree with you that Pulford is better than Ellis. He might be better than Brind'amour too.

Though Inglewood doesnt really have a top power forward to check, which is where a lot of pulford's value is.
What am I missing here? You are correct, how am I suppose to defend Pulford in a situation like this? Isn't it common knowledge that he was one of the best checkers in his era?

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04-18-2012, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
SHOW US??

Pulford has been looked upon as one of the top 10 defensive forwards of all time? Read around this site? Do I really need to post some quotes reffering to his defensive play?

Not to mention his clutch playoff scoring compared to Ellis lackluster playoff resume, stop cluttering this thread with such rubbish.
I've seen Pulford called one of the best forecheckers ever, but I'm not sure I've heard him called one f the best DEFENSIVE forwards ever. There's a pretty big difference.

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04-18-2012, 11:11 PM
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Haha your arguement contradicts every thing we have on Gardiner? You took the bait Jarek.

So we don't have information on Gardiner playing in the WCHL and out West etc.. so we give him next to no credit.

AND YET Johnson "didn't have the opportunity" to win a Hart so we can't say if he would have or not

Gardiner didn't have an opportunity to play in a league with a lot more historical data and articles and we don't use that in his favour now do we?


Sure logic would tell us that Johnson may have been able to be voted to an NHL All star team but it didn't happen

Logic would also tell us that if Herb Gardiner could win a Hart at age 35 that his earlier years would have been that much more impressive as well.
It was pointed out earlier that Gardiner appeared on a WCHL 1st AST twice in six opportunities, so.. what information are we missing, exactly? This information is likely inaccurate, as Gardiner didn't play 6 seasons in the WCHL (4 in WCHL, 1 in the renamed WHL, and 2 in the Big-4 league before that), however, the point stands.. Moose Johnson was voted onto the 1st AST of the PCHA, one of the clearly 2 best leagues in the world at the time, in 7 or 8 consecutive seasons, while Gardiner only managed to make 2 ASTs in an inferior league in his time there. Why, exactly, should we think that his earlier years would have produced more Hart calibre seasons? Just because he did it once at 35, why does that mean he would have been able to do it when he was younger? It's possible, but nowhere near a certainty. What IS certain is what Moose Johnson did in a better league, so..

As far as Johnson not being able to win a Hart.. we know that he didn't have that opportunity, but we do know that he was among the top-2 defensemen in the PCHA every year he was there, basically, and this was one of the strongest leagues in the world. Gardiner didn't do that in an inferior league. Why is it so hard for you to grasp why people consider Johnson substantially better? If Gardiner was a Hart calibre player before that, then he would have managed more than his 2 ASTs out west.

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04-18-2012, 11:16 PM
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I don't know when Herb Gardiner was an All Star out west, but the 1925 and 1926 WCHL was definitely a higher quality league than the PCHA was when Moose Johnson played, especially at the D position

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04-18-2012, 11:16 PM
  #96
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I've seen Pulford called one of the best forecheckers ever, but I'm not sure I've heard him called one f the best DEFENSIVE forwards ever. There's a pretty big difference.
I dont even know where to start with all of the quotes praising Pulfords 2 way game. You can start off with this one:

Quote:
"He is one of the most complete hockey players the game has produced in recent years and one of the hardest-working," claimed Larry Regan, the general manager of the Los Angeles Kings in 1970. "He plays all facets of the game at both ends of the ice and he never lets up. He gives his best at all times. He is good and he is inspirational."

Quote:
Toronto won three consecutive Stanley Cup championships, then added a fourth in 1966-67. Bob Pulford had played an integral role with the Maple Leafs as they grew from also-rans to victors. He was regarded as an outstanding two-way forward, responsible defensively yet able to score timely goals. "I plugged more and worked hard and got my share of goals," Bob says. "I think hard work can make up for a lot of things that a hockey player may lack."
- http://www.hhof.com/htmlSpotlight/sp...ep199103.shtml

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Originally Posted by jarek View Post
It was pointed out earlier that Gardiner appeared on a WCHL 1st AST twice in six opportunities, so.. what information are we missing, exactly? This information is likely inaccurate, as Gardiner didn't play 6 seasons in the WCHL (4 in WCHL, 1 in the renamed WHL, and 2 in the Big-4 league before that), however, the point stands.. Moose Johnson was voted onto the 1st AST of the PCHA, one of the clearly 2 best leagues in the world at the time, in 7 or 8 consecutive seasons, while Gardiner only managed to make 2 ASTs in an inferior league in his time there. Why, exactly, should we think that his earlier years would have produced more Hart calibre seasons? Just because he did it once at 35, why does that mean he would have been able to do it when he was younger? It's possible, but nowhere near a certainty. What IS certain is what Moose Johnson did in a better league, so..

As far as Johnson not being able to win a Hart.. we know that he didn't have that opportunity, but we do know that he was among the top-2 defensemen in the PCHA every year he was there, basically, and this was one of the strongest leagues in the world. Gardiner didn't do that in an inferior league. Why is it so hard for you to grasp why people consider Johnson substantially better? If Gardiner was a Hart calibre player before that, then he would have managed more than his 2 ASTs out west.
And who was Johnsons competition?

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04-18-2012, 11:18 PM
  #97
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I don't know when Herb Gardiner was an All Star out west, but the 1925 and 1926 WCHL was definitely a higher quality league than the PCHA was when Moose Johnson played, especially at the D position
I'm glad you've stuck around this series. It gets pretty tough to try and back check every claim made against me. Things like the above + Ron Ellis > Bob Pulford? Get really annoying to try and defend.

All from outside GM's nonetheless.

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04-18-2012, 11:19 PM
  #98
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Okay, those quotes say he's hard working, which we all knew. They don't really speak to his actual standing defensively at the time.

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04-18-2012, 11:22 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I'm glad you've stuck around this series. It gets pretty tough to try and back check every claim made against me. Things like the above + Ron Ellis > Bob Pulford? Get really annoying to try and defend.

All from outside GM's nonetheless.
Oh come on mark can we stop with all of the "woe is me, everyone is against me!" act. I've been going back and forth with both Velociraptor and BB in their thread, and as soon as arrbez says something absurd i'll say it back to him too. Let's not act like I'm out to try and kill your team here.

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04-18-2012, 11:26 PM
  #100
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And who was Johnsons competition?
Lester Patrick. Who was Gardiner's competition out west?

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