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Foster Hewitt Divisional Semifinals: Inglewood vs. Cincinatti

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Old
04-18-2012, 11:28 PM
  #101
markrander87
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BOB Pulford he's so good you don't notice him

Articles like this (adding on to the Howe quote) are what will put Pulford ahead of Brind'amour

Amazing Article on Pulford:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...ive+play&hl=en

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04-18-2012, 11:29 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Okay, those quotes say he's hard working, which we all knew. They don't really speak to his actual standing defensively at the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Oh come on mark can we stop with all of the "woe is me, everyone is against me!" act. I've been going back and forth with both Velociraptor and BB in their thread, and as soon as arrbez says something absurd i'll say it back to him too. Let's not act like I'm out to try and kill your team here.
See above



What again did I say that was so absurd?

Oh Jarek looks like TDMM agrees, thanks for coming out.

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04-18-2012, 11:34 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
BOB Pulford he's so good you don't notice him

Articles like this (adding on to the Howe quote) are what will put Pulford ahead of Brind'amour

Amazing Article on Pulford:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...ive+play&hl=en
Again, mentions of forechecking, nothing on defense. I don't mean to say that's a bad thing, hey that's great. But you're the one who touted him as one of the top 10 forwards defensively and I just don't see it. Great intangible player, does it all, but I don't see all-time great defensively with him. Yeah above-average, but not top-10.

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Old
04-18-2012, 11:39 PM
  #104
TheDevilMadeMe
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Defensemen scoring WCHL/WHL

1922
1. Joe Simpson 34
2. Red Dutton 20
----
12. Herb Gardiner 7

1923
1. Joe Simpson 29
2. Amby Moran 23
3. Joe Matte 20
4. Herb Gardiner 12
---
10. Red Dutton 6

1924
1. Harry Cameron 20
2. Joe Simpson 14
3. Red Dutton 13
4. Duke Dutkowski 11
5. Herb Gardiner 10
5. Bobby Bensen 10

1925
1. Joe Simpson 23
2. Harry Cameron 20
2. Herb Gardiner 20
4. Bob Trapp 19
---
7. Red Dutton 12
13. Art Duncan 10
18. Eddie Shore 6

1926
1. Bob Trapp 16
2. Red Dutton 15
3. Eddie Shore 14
4. Lester Patrick 13
4. Art Duncan 13
4. Duke Dutkowski 13
7. Harry Cameron 12
----
15. Herb Gardiner 4

Positions according to SIHR. I have a feeling Cameron was a F some of these years

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04-18-2012, 11:42 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Again, mentions of forechecking, nothing on defense. I don't mean to say that's a bad thing, hey that's great. But you're the one who touted him as one of the top 10 forwards defensively and I just don't see it. Great intangible player, does it all, but I don't see all-time great defensively with him. Yeah above-average, but not top-10.
Haha are you serious? Did you actually read the article? My god you are actually going to make me write out each praise he received from everybody listed in this article? I guess i'll have to do that at work tomorrow,

Heres a timbit from some guy named Toe Blake:

Quote:
Pulford is known in the trade as to being a hockey players hockey player, It's a rating that any National Hockey leaguer would trade a few bushels of headlines for. It means that in the goals for and goals against(by his covers) he's always on the plus side, or to put it plainly, he's a hard working, two-way player, A coach with a team of such forwards wouldn't have a worry in the world.
- Toe Blake


The entire article is based on the premise that Pulford is criminally underrated because of his defensive style of play and then lists several coaches and players praising him

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04-18-2012, 11:48 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Defensemen scoring WCHL/WHL

1922
1. Joe Simpson 34
2. Red Dutton 20
----
12. Herb Gardiner 7

1923
1. Joe Simpson 29
2. Amby Moran 23
3. Joe Matte 20
4. Herb Gardiner 12
---
10. Red Dutton 6

1924
1. Harry Cameron 20
2. Joe Simpson 14
3. Red Dutton 13
4. Duke Dutkowski 11
5. Herb Gardiner 10
5. Bobby Bensen 10

1925
1. Joe Simpson 23
2. Harry Cameron 20
2. Herb Gardiner 20
4. Bob Trapp 19
---
7. Red Dutton 12
13. Art Duncan 10
18. Eddie Shore 6

1926
1. Bob Trapp 16
2. Red Dutton 15
3. Eddie Shore 14
4. Lester Patrick 13
4. Art Duncan 13
4. Duke Dutkowski 13
7. Harry Cameron 12
----
15. Herb Gardiner 4

Positions according to SIHR. I have a feeling Cameron was a F some of these years


and now we keep in mind that Gardiner was known as a defensive rock. He had 12 points in 44 games played during his Hart trophy season for Montreal T8th amongst defenseman that year.

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04-18-2012, 11:49 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Lester Patrick. Who was Gardiner's competition out west?
See the scoring tables I posted. Does anyone know where we can find full WCHL/WHL all stars?

It looks like Gardiner's main completion was Bullet Joe Simpson, but Red Dutton was also there the whole time. As the WCHL got stronger, aging Lester Patrick and Art Duncan joined. So did a very young Eddie Shore. Aging Harry Cameron joined but I'm unsure if he was a defenseman at this point

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04-19-2012, 12:09 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Haha are you serious? Did you actually read the article? My god you are actually going to make me write out each praise he received from everybody listed in this article? I guess i'll have to do that at work tomorrow,

Heres a timbit from some guy named Toe Blake:



- Toe Blake


The entire article is based on the premise that Pulford is criminally underrated because of his defensive style of play and then lists several coaches and players praising him
I mean I think the article is based on how Pulford is underrated because he does all of the little things that it takes to win. It specifically talks about his forechecking a couple paragraphs. The article makes his forechecking sound like a bigger part of his game than his actual defensive skill. I believe him to be above average, but nothing more in his actual own zone just because I haven't seen anything about it. The plus/minus is good, but it's largely a product of his forechecking.

Yet again not that there's anything wrong wtih that, it's just that the reason I keep harping on this is that it would be mildly difficult to play this line against Gretzky in that circumstance, because it's going to be very difficult to get the puck away from them and start the forecheck/cycle with their strong puck possession and puck moving forwards on the line. You have a good partner with him in Tremblay to forecheck with, but it's just going to be difficult to do against Gretzky.

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04-19-2012, 01:10 AM
  #109
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
See the scoring tables I posted. Does anyone know where we can find full WCHL/WHL all stars?
Check the retro awards thread, they should all be there.

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04-19-2012, 01:19 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Check the retro awards thread, they should all be there.
Wow, how did I miss that? I knew the PCHA All Stars were there but didn't realize the WCHL ones were


Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
WCHL/WHL All-stars

1921-22
1st Team
Red Dutton, D
Joe Simpson, D
Duke Keats, C
George Hay, LW
Barney Stanley, RW
2nd Team
Bill Laird, G
Bob Trapp, D
Percy Traub, D
Dick Irvin, C
Ty Arbour, LW
Art Gagne, RW

1922-23
1st Team
Hal Winkler, G
Herb Gardiner, D
Bob Trapp, D
Joe Simpson, D
Duke Keats, C
Charlie McVeigh, C/LW
Barney Stanley, RW
Art Gagne, RW
George Hay, LW
2nd Team
Bill Laird, G
Percy Traub, D

1923-24
1st Team
Hugh McCusker, G
Red Dutton, D
Percy Traub, D
Duke Keats, C
Newsy Lalonde, C
Dick Irvin, C
Bill Cook, RW
George Hay, LW
Harry Oliver, RW
2nd Team
Joe Simpson, D

1924-25
1st Team
Hap Holmes G
Herb Gardiner D
Joe Simpson D
Bill Cook RW
Duke Keats C
Mickey MacKay C
Frank Boucher C
Harry Oliver RW

1925-26
1st Team
George Hainsworth G
Eddie Shore D
Bob Trapp D
Frank Fredrickson C
Duke Keats C
Bill Cook RW
Art Gagne RW
George Hay LW

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04-19-2012, 07:29 AM
  #111
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According to this Article:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...all+star&hl=en

Herb Gardiner in fact was a 1st team all star in 1927-28.

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04-19-2012, 07:31 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
and now we keep in mind that Gardiner was known as a defensive rock. He had 12 points in 44 games played during his Hart trophy season for Montreal T8th amongst defenseman that year.
Looks like the only times he got any serious All Star consideration in the WCHL was when he was putting up a lot of points. Are you still sure he was as defensive of a rock as you claim out west? Seems more to me like Montreal encouraged him to play better defensively, rather than him doing it of his own volition..

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
See the scoring tables I posted. Does anyone know where we can find full WCHL/WHL all stars?

It looks like Gardiner's main completion was Bullet Joe Simpson, but Red Dutton was also there the whole time. As the WCHL got stronger, aging Lester Patrick and Art Duncan joined. So did a very young Eddie Shore. Aging Harry Cameron joined but I'm unsure if he was a defenseman at this point
How good was Dutton, really? I really don't know a whole hell of a lot about him. You may have a point with him, but Duncan didn't make much of a dent in AST voting during his time with Gardiner there, Harry Cameron's position is in question and Shore/Patrick's one year there with Gardiner was during a year where Gardiner didn't do much. Am I to be impressed by this? Why not post Johnson's PCHA competition during this time, just for giggles?

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04-19-2012, 07:33 AM
  #113
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....

Quote:
The following is the all-star selection which takes in players in both the American and Canadian divisions of the league:
Centre- Howie Morenz
Right Wing- Bill Cook
Left Wing- Aurel Joliat
Defence- Eddie Shore
Defence- Herb Gardiner
Goal- Clint Benedict

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04-19-2012, 07:34 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
According to this Article:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...all+star&hl=en

Herb Gardiner in fact was a 1st team all star in 1927-28.
...

Isn't this the 2nd team AS you were clamoring was better than anything Moose Johnson ever did as part of Gardiner's "peak"? He played in the NHL that year.

EDIT: Also, it looks like Gardiner got the nod over Ching for that team because he takes fewer penalties. This implies that the guy thought both were basically equals, except in that. Read further to see that quote. Whose ASTs are these, exactly? They aren't official NHL ones.. just the opinion of one guy it seems, whose name we don't even know.

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04-19-2012, 07:37 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Looks like the only times he got any serious All Star consideration in the WCHL was when he was putting up a lot of points. Are you still sure he was as defensive of a rock as you claim out west? Seems more to me like Montreal encouraged him to play better defensively, rather than him doing it of his own volition..
Do you honestly read anything that I post throughout the season? There are multiple quote to again prove you wrong

For starters your logic is face palm worthy. The whole reason why he received a tryout with Montreal was because how well he shut down their forwards during their Stanley Cup finals when Herb Gardiner played out West.

Quote:
Gardiner was a rock on the defense corps of every team he played on, and he was also respected for his consistent play through each season
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...sp?mem=P195808

Quote:
As he had done in the past, the 35-year-old Gardiner quickly established himself as one of the NHLís most skilled and consistent blue-liners. His smooth play and sound work in his own end was complemented by defense partner Sylvio Manthaís playmaking and utterly fearless approach to the game, making the duo one of the top defensive pairings in the game.

Stop throwing ***** at the wall and hoping that it sticks.

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04-19-2012, 07:45 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Do you honestly read anything that I post throughout the season? There are multiple quote to again prove you wrong

For starters your logic is face palm worthy. The whole reason why he received a tryout with Montreal was because how well he shut down their forwards during their Stanley Cup finals when Herb Gardiner played out West.



http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...sp?mem=P195808




Stop throwing ***** at the wall and hoping that it sticks.
I'm making opinions based on what I know. I didn't read everything during every thread here, because I'm not part of the draft and I don't have time.

We very clearly have AST records during Gardiner's WCHL years, so then why is it that he didn't get on the first team every single year if we are to believe your claim that he would have won the Hart every year during those years in the NHL? You didn't explicitly say this, but you sure as hell implied it. Moreover, the only time he made it to those ASTs is when he put up a nice amount of points.

What you have there is good evidence that he was good defensively in the WCHL, and honestly, I never really thought that wasn't the case.. I just presented it as a possibility due to his AST record out west. You still have NOTHING here that is strong enough to suggest that Gardiner played anywhere near as good in those years that he would have won multiple Harts..

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04-19-2012, 07:55 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by jarek View Post
I'm making opinions based on what I know. I didn't read everything during every thread here, because I'm not part of the draft and I don't have time.

We very clearly have AST records during Gardiner's WCHL years, so then why is it that he didn't get on the first team every single year if we are to believe your claim that he would have won the Hart every year during those years in the NHL? You didn't explicitly say this, but you sure as hell implied it. Moreover, the only time he made it to those ASTs is when he put up a nice amount of points.

What you have there is good evidence that he was good defensively in the WCHL, and honestly, I never really thought that wasn't the case.. I just presented it as a possibility due to his AST record out west. You still have NOTHING here that is strong enough to suggest that Gardiner played anywhere near as good in those years that he would have won multiple Harts..
What are you going through? Honestly what are you going through. So you don't read things and you dream up these claims which I have never made


When did I ever say Gardiner would have won a Hart every year he was n the WCHL if he had played in the NHL?

SHOW ME


This is what I have to contend with?

Sifting through such bogus accusations.

Proving that Herb Gardiner didn't magically start playing defensively when he went to Montreal

Proving that Bob Pulford is a better player then Ron Ellis?




Hilarious

Instead of you guys asking relevent questions like....for starters who he plans on matching up against my top two lines.
I've asked him now at least 3 different times and he keeps avoiding my questions because he knows (As Sturm has already pointed out that his team does not match up well against mine)

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04-19-2012, 07:57 AM
  #118
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show me where i said gardiner would have won multiple harts in the nhl if he would have played in the nhl during his entire career................i'll wait.

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04-19-2012, 10:07 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
show me where i said gardiner would have won multiple harts in the nhl if he would have played in the nhl during his entire career................i'll wait.
Apparently YOU don't read..

Quote:
We very clearly have AST records during Gardiner's WCHL years, so then why is it that he didn't get on the first team every single year if we are to believe your claim that he would have won the Hart every year during those years in the NHL? You didn't explicitly say this, but you sure as hell implied it. Moreover, the only time he made it to those ASTs is when he put up a nice amount of points.

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04-19-2012, 10:13 AM
  #120
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Man you guys need to rachet down the rhetoric..

mark and I descended into this kind of sarcastic nit picking crap last year and I'm still embarrassed by my part in it.

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04-19-2012, 10:26 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Man you guys need to rachet down the rhetoric..

mark and I descended into this kind of sarcastic nit picking crap last year and I'm still embarrassed by my part in it.
Well, the problem is, I don't really understand what mark was trying to prove to begin with when he basically said that Gardiner would have had even better years than his Hart year when he was younger in the WCHL, when there is plenty of evidence to disprove that to begin with, or at least cast doubt on it.

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04-19-2012, 11:45 AM
  #122
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mark I actually did bring up what I felt is a very valid point to what your plans are as far as line matching. As I said I don't think Gretzky is a good matchup at all for that third line.

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04-19-2012, 12:02 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Well, the problem is, I don't really understand what mark was trying to prove to begin with when he basically said that Gardiner would have had even better years than his Hart year when he was younger in the WCHL, when there is plenty of evidence to disprove that to begin with, or at least cast doubt on it.
Yeah I mean I don't think mark ever said that he'd have better years than his Hart years either and I've been following and posting this thread pretty heavily. I think his point more was that Moose Johnson had a great chance to have his longevity proven, whereas Gardiner didn't. While I don't find that exactly true either, I also don't think his point was that he'd have other Hart winning seasons, just that hey, maybe he' have another first team all-star or so. I definitely see Gardiner as a guy who got better with age, or else we would have more on him in my opinion. I think mark would agree with that too, but I just don't see any way that he came almost out of nowhere. I think that's where he's coming from.

By the way, I think part of Gardiner winning the Hart had a lot to do with the notoriety that he received for playing literally every single minute that season (he was called the "iron man of hockey" after this season). Gardiner did win the Hart when it wasn't necessarily the "best player" to his team, but most valuable. I think the notoriety he received for that had a pretty decent amount of sway in his voting.

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04-19-2012, 12:23 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Yeah I mean I don't think mark ever said that he'd have better years than his Hart years either and I've been following and posting this thread pretty heavily. I think his point more was that Moose Johnson had a great chance to have his longevity proven, whereas Gardiner didn't. While I don't find that exactly true either, I also don't think his point was that he'd have other Hart winning seasons, just that hey, maybe he' have another first team all-star or so. I definitely see Gardiner as a guy who got better with age, or else we would have more on him in my opinion. I think mark would agree with that too, but I just don't see any way that he came almost out of nowhere. I think that's where he's coming from.

By the way, I think part of Gardiner winning the Hart had a lot to do with the notoriety that he received for playing literally every single minute that season (he was called the "iron man of hockey" after this season). Gardiner did win the Hart when it wasn't necessarily the "best player" to his team, but most valuable. I think the notoriety he received for that had a pretty decent amount of sway in his voting.
I agree, although a few quotes I've read about Gardiner is that he actually was seen as a key cog for Montreal in that season.

I'm having a tough time finding where mark essentially said that Gardiner's pre-NHL years, when he was younger, would have been just as good or better than his Hart year, but I did find this amusing tidbit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Macarand defense is clearly weaker. What do we actually know about Herb Gardiner? Because I couldnt find a thing to warrant him a top pairing ATD'r. Belfour is underrated but PArent clearly has the edge over him as well. Broadbent is a one season wonder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87
Apparently accoring to BoyWonder we need proof for everything, so I guess you'll be needing proof regarding Broadbent who outside of his one season only had one more season which was a 10th...

Gardiner, please I couldnt find anything regarding him. Do me a favour and blow my mind with him.
Nevermind, found it:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...9&postcount=88

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Logic would also tell us that if Herb Gardiner could win a Hart at age 35 that his earlier years would have been that much more impressive as well.
If THAT isn't saying, or at least implying that he would have been at least a Hart contender in his earlier years, I don't know what is.

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04-19-2012, 12:39 PM
  #125
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I agree, although a few quotes I've read about Gardiner is that he actually was seen as a key cog for Montreal in that season.

I'm having a tough time finding where mark essentially said that Gardiner's pre-NHL years, when he was younger, would have been just as good or better than his Hart year, but I did find this amusing tidbit:
Oh I'm sure he absolutely had a major impact that year, I'm just trying to decide how big. I think it's clear he wasn't a better player than Morenz (there's your "well no ****" moment for the day), but he just had such a large impact on being able to play long minutes for his team that it gave them a better opportunity to win. So yeah, he was extremely durable and obviously great if the team wanted him out there all those minutes.....it's just that their fourth defenseman was Amby Moran, who played 35 games in his NHL career (I think I'd rather have Ian). So they weren't deep on defense. Therefore he held immense value to the team. I'd be more interested to hear what he did with those minutes.

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