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Foster Hewitt Divisional Semifinals: Montreal vs. Australia

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Old
04-16-2012, 07:17 PM
  #1
TheDevilMadeMe
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Foster Hewitt Divisional Semifinals: Montreal vs. Australia

LES CANADIENS DE MONTRÉAL



GM: BenchBrawl
Captain: Red Kelly
Assistant: Frank Nighbor
Assistant: Cy Denneny

HEAD COACH

Pat Burns

ROSTER

Cy Denneny - Frank Nighbor - Helmut Balderis
Patrik Elias - Adam Oates - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Craig Ramsay - Phil Goyette - Claude Provost
Patrick Marleau - Vincent Lecavalier - Tomas Sandstrom

Harry Howell - Leonard ''Red'' Kelly
Barry Beck - Dan Boyle
Jamie Macoun - Ron Stackhouse

Harry Lumley
Andy Moog

spares: Craig Conroy , Andre Dupont , Jason Spezza , Curt Fraser

SPECIAL UNITS

PP
Denneny - Oates - Balderis
Boyle - Kelly

Elias - Nighbor - Hextall
Goyette - Beck

PK
Ramsay - Nighbor
Howell - Beck

Goyette - Provost
Kelly - Macoun

OFFENSIVE HERO LINE
Denneny - Oates - Hextall Sr.
Boyle - Kelly
( Nighbor , Balderis )

DEFENSIVE HERO LINE
Ramsay - Nighbor - Provost
Howell - Kelly


Vs

Australia Mighty Roos

General Manager: Velociraptor
Home Venue: Stadium Australia



Head Coach: Ken Hitchcock
Captain: George Armstrong
Assistant Captains: Ron Francis, Denis Potvin, Charlie Conacher

ROSTER

Steve Shutt - Ron Francis (A) - Charlie Conacher (A)
Herbie Lewis - Sergei Fedorov - Reggie Leach
Yvon Lambert - Derek Sanderson - George Armstrong (C)
Louis Berlinguette - Bobby Holik - Leo Labine

Denis Potvin (A) - Bob Baun
Doug Mohns - Randy Carlyle
Albert Leduc - Ken Morrow

Bernie Parent
Percy LeSueur

Spares:
Glen Wesley, D
Pierre Mondou, C/LW
Paul MacLean, RW
Normand Rochefort, D


POWERPLAY

PP1: Steve Shutt - Sergei Fedorov - Charlie Conacher - Denis Potvin - Randy Carlyle
PP2: Herbie Lewis - Ron Francis - Reggie Leach - Doug Mohns - Albert Leduc

PENALTY KILL

PK1: Derek Sanderson - George Armstrong - Denis Potvin - Ken Morrow
PK2: Ron Francis - Herbie Lewis - Doug Mohns - Bob Baun
PK3: Sergei Fedorov - Louis Berlinguette - Denis Potvin - Ken Morrow


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04-16-2012, 09:05 PM
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Best of luck, Reen.

I will start adding my thoughts on the series tomorrow, when is the voting date for this series? I have a pretty hectic weekend ahead of me, and can't guarantee a lot of activity.

Few opening thoughts on the series:

- Two very strong defensive teams go head-to-head, probably going to be a very low-scoring series that shift the load to the goaltenders.

- Is Montreal's blueline depth enough to contain Australia's offense? and is Lumley up to the proposed challenge? In a series where it may come down to goaltending, I don't like my chances if I'm Reen.

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04-17-2012, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Best of luck, Reen.

I will start adding my thoughts on the series tomorrow, when is the voting date for this series? I have a pretty hectic weekend ahead of me, and can't guarantee a lot of activity.

Few opening thoughts on the series:

- Two very strong defensive teams go head-to-head, probably going to be a very low-scoring series that shift the load to the goaltenders.

- Is Montreal's blueline depth enough to contain Australia's offense? and is Lumley up to the proposed challenge? In a series where it may come down to goaltending, I don't like my chances if I'm Reen.
I will start discussing this series tomorrow.Good luck to you.

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04-17-2012, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I will start discussing this series tomorrow.Good luck to you.
Congrats, Reen. Although controversy doesn't affect my voting, I glad it didn't hurt your team.

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04-17-2012, 11:08 AM
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BenchBrawl
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First of all I think it's funny that Velociraptor brings up defense to make a point as I'm convinced my first two pairings are superior to Australia.

You have a nice forward group but mine is simply more talented and balanced on all lines.

The only place where I see an edge in your line-up is with Bernie Parent.

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04-17-2012, 11:14 AM
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First Pairing: Howell-Kelly vs Potvin-Baun

I think it's pretty obvious my first pairing is superior on that one by the simple fact you have Baun on it.Kelly and Potvin are pretty much a wash but Baun is inferior to Barry Beck who is my 4th defenseman , so vs Howell it's not really close.

This is Baun AST votings:

Quote:
Bob Baun:

1962-63: 9th* (48/70 GP)
1963-64: 5th* (52/70 GP)
1964-65: 8th
1968-69: 11th
1969-70: 16th
1970-71: 8th
The first two were during the 1ST AST 2ND AST era and in both cases Baun ended missing more than half the games in the second half of the season.
Unless Baun has a fighter reputation I'm unaware of , he's also a very undisciplined player , finishing top 10 in PIMs 4 times.

Advantage Montréal.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 04-17-2012 at 01:02 PM.
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04-17-2012, 11:19 AM
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Second pairing: Dan Boyle - Barry Beck vs Doug Mohns - Randy Carlyle

Your second pairing is horribly assembled , Mohns is a fine n3 puckmoving defenseman , yet you mix him with a questionable inferior puck moving defenseman in Carlyle.Who is going ot take care of the defense on that pairing? Mohns? If that is the case it is less than ideal considering his skillset.The skills of both pairings is very similar , but the chemistry of mine is a good match while yours is a complete mess.

Advantage Montréal

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04-17-2012, 11:28 AM
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More on Barry Beck:

Norris Voting:6th , 6th , 7th , 7th , 9th

AST Voting: 5th ,6th , 6th , 8th , 9th

Hart Voting:6th

(very strong competition , mainly guys like Bourque , Robinson , Park , Potvin , Salming , Savard , Lapointe , Coffey etc...)

scouting reports(work by seventieslord):
Quote:
Barry Beck

1979: one of the best young defensemen to come out of junior in years... tough, strong, agile and has a knack for scoring important goals...

1980: prized young defenseman who can do it all... strong and mean when he has to be... one of the most sought-after players in the league after only two seasons...

1981: monstrous player who delivers monstrous bodychecks... expected to leaf NYR to first stanley cup in 40 years, instead he floundered during the playoffs... must hit to be effective... can handle puck but isn't a goal scorer...

1982: finally made earth shattering trade look good for Rangers... struggled first season but rebounded strongly last season... emerged as imposing force in playoffs... throws the hardest bodychecks around... was fabulous against Blues, then had disappointing semifinal against Islanders... was on ice 9 times when Isles scored and was never on ice for an Islander even strength goal... still won hearts of Ranger fans with tenacious defense... has booming shot from the point.

1983: perhaps the most dominating defenseman in the defensive end of the ice in the league because of his size, strength and ability to neutralize rival fowards with jarring bodychecks... capable of rushing the puck and being a dynamic offensive threat but played more of a defensive role last season... seldom makes a bad play... feared so much as a fighter that few opposing players challenge him... has developed into a forceful, respected team leader...

1984: at times one of the most dominant players in the game... a feared bodychecker...

1985: built like football tight end and hits like a linebacker. "he's a domnating force every time he's on the ice", says Buffalo GM/coach Scotty Bowman... best known for smashing bodychecks... usually concentrates on defense more than offense...

1986: that he managed 56 games is a tribute to his character...has not quite achieved the star status predicted but has been a fine performer for eight seasons... devastating bodychecker and fine defensive defenseman, but has never scored like expected... intelligent, articulate, but has a temper...

1987: will he play again? when healthy, he is one of the game's physically dominating players...

1988: returns after sitting out 1987 season in protest initially over differences with Ted Sator... has been plagued by injuries... a huge defensive plus if he and his body can make the grade again...
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR millenium memories
"But there is another bottom line that expresses as much as the bodychecks he threw, as much as the big slapshots he took. It says: in the seven full regular seasons he spent with them, the Rangers were a .523 team when Beck was in their lineup and a .444 team when he wasn't."

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04-17-2012, 11:35 AM
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Australia seems like a team that will rely a lot on the PP for their offense , but not only is my team very disciplined , I also have a very strong PK.

For the rare times where Montréal is going to take a penalty , my PK units will be extremely hard to score on with probably the best PK forward group ever created in the ATD and good defensemen to back it up.

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04-17-2012, 11:42 AM
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1st line: Denneny - Nighbor - Balderis vs Shutt - Francis - Conacher

I think my top line is better both offensively and defensively.Conacher is obviously great , but while Francis is a good defensive player , his offense record , especially outside of the inflated Pittsburgh years is underwhelming.Steve Shutt record is also quite poor considering he played on the first line of a dynasty with the greatest player in the world.Francis can't compare to Nighbor defensively or offensively , and I already have the chemistry thing going on with my dynasty duo.

Advantage Montréal

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04-17-2012, 11:50 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Australia seems like a team that will rely a lot on the PP for their offense , but not only is my team very disciplined , I also have a very strong PK.

For the rare times where Montréal is going to take a penalty , my PK units will be extremely hard to score on with probably the best PK forward group ever created in the ATD and good defensemen to back it up.
pappyshoes' ATD 2011 (I think) team says hi and goodnight.

I want to know what the GMs' thoughts are on how jet lag is going to affect this series..

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04-17-2012, 11:51 AM
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2nd lines: Elias - Oates - Hextall SR. vs Lewis - Fedorov - Leach

Your line relies so much on Fedorov offensively it's not even funny.Herbie Lewis is pretty meh offensively.Reggie Leach had a couple of 7th in scoring but I think we can safely say that he is the definition of a one-year wonder as far as elite performances goes.Is one season enough to think he could help Fedorov offensively? Either way , my 2nd line is so explosive offensively that there is simply no way it's not the best here.

The truth is my 2nd line is better offensively than any of your line.

Advantage Montréal

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04-17-2012, 11:54 AM
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3rd line: Ramsay - Goyette - Provost vs Lambert - Holik - Armstrong

Your 3rd line will be slow as hell , and my line is much better offensively and defensively once again.I don't see any argument possible to sell your 3rd line against mine.

Advantage Montréal

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04-17-2012, 11:56 AM
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Coaching: Hitchcock vs Burns

Hitchcock is a good defensive coach and he won the cup with Dallas (+ a nice run with Philadelphia) but Pat Burns proved himself more often than Hitchcock in going far with differant kind of team.He made an immediate impact on 4 clubs , winning the jack adams his 1st year everytime except NJ , where he won the cup his 1st year instead.

This is pretty close but I still have the give the edge to Burns because of his many awards

Advantage Montréal

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04-17-2012, 11:57 AM
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Goalie: Parent vs Lumley

Parent was a clutch goaltender who had a tremendous 2 year run , and he is superior to Harry Lumley and should make a big save here and there.

Advantage Australia

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04-17-2012, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
2nd lines: Elias - Oates - Hextall SR. vs Lewis - Fedorov - Leach

Your line relies so much on Fedorov offensively it's not even funny.Herbie Lewis is pretty meh offensively.Reggie Leach had a couple of 7th in scoring but I think we can safely say that he is the definition of a one-year wonder as far as elite performances goes.Is one season enough to think he could help Fedorov offensively? Either way , my 2nd line is so explosive offensively that there is simply no way it's not the best here.

The truth is my 2nd line is better offensively than any of your line.

Advantage Montréal
No.. your 2nd line is not better than the Francis line offensively..

Just because Francis played in Pittsburgh during the Jagr-Lemieux era, doesn't mean that he didn't earn his points. He still had to be good enough to acquire them, and he was not an elite, but a very strong scorer for a very, very long time. The definition of longevity. There really isn't a whole lot to choose from between Oates and Francis, in my mind. Put a gun to my head, I probably say Oates is better, but it isn't by a landslide.

And, factoring in the fact that players during Conacher's era had much shorter careers overall than in Oates' time, I'd say Conacher is a better player offensively than Oates (definitely in peak), and he certainly obliterates Hextall.

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04-17-2012, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
pappyshoes' ATD 2011 (I think) team says hi and goodnight.

I want to know what the GMs' thoughts are on how jet lag is going to affect this series..
Yeah, Nighbor-Ramsey literally can't be topped on the pK but unless I'm missing something Goyette is pretty meh for a penalty killer here. And Provost is a solid PKer, but I think of him as much more dominant as a shadow than a pKer.

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04-17-2012, 12:04 PM
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Yeah, Nighbor-Ramsey literally can't be topped on the pK but unless I'm missing something Goyette is pretty meh for a penalty killer here. And Provost is a solid PKer, but I think of him as much more dominant as a shadow than a pKer.
I see your Nighbor - Ramsay and raise you Westfall (statistically, the best PK'er in NHL history if you believe in such things) - some combination of Keon, Sanderson, Metz, Kennedy.

Anyways, reen is really heaping on the hyperbole in this thread. If I was voting, I may be leaning towards his team at this point, but a good argument can sway an opinion one way or another in the blink of an eye.

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04-17-2012, 12:27 PM
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No.. your 2nd line is not better than the Francis line offensively..

Just because Francis played in Pittsburgh during the Jagr-Lemieux era, doesn't mean that he didn't earn his points. He still had to be good enough to acquire them, and he was not an elite, but a very strong scorer for a very, very long time. The definition of longevity. There really isn't a whole lot to choose from between Oates and Francis, in my mind. Put a gun to my head, I probably say Oates is better, but it isn't by a landslide.

And, factoring in the fact that players during Conacher's era had much shorter careers overall than in Oates' time, I'd say Conacher is a better player offensively than Oates (definitely in peak), and he certainly obliterates Hextall.
Give me a break ,Francis wouldn't have been able to have as many points and top finishes if he didn't play with Jagr and Lemieux.

4 out of 5 of his top 10 in points finishes happened in Pittburgh.

His 1st , 3rd , 3rd in assist also happened in Pittsburgh.

This is one of the most obvious case of a player being boosted by greater players.

The offense of these line is debatable , but my 2nd line as a better duo of offensive players , both Oates and Hextall are clearly superior than Francis offensively.

How overrated can Francis become? Equal to Oates offensively? Just give me a break I'm already tired.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 04-17-2012 at 12:32 PM.
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04-17-2012, 12:32 PM
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Give me a break ,Francis wouldn't have been able to have as many points and top finishes if he didn't play with Jagr and Lemieux.

4 out of 5 of his top 10 in points finishes happened in Pittburgh.

His 1st , 3rd , 3rd in assist also happened in Pittsburgh.

This is one of the most obvious case of a player being boosted by greater players.

The offense of these line is debatable , but my 2nd line as a better duo of offensive players , both Oates and Hextall are clearly superior than Francis offensively.

How overrated can Francis become?
What the hell? Now Bryan Hextall is better offensively than Ron Francis? Wow..

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04-17-2012, 12:35 PM
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What the hell? Now Bryan Hextall is better offensively than Ron Francis? Wow..
Do you realize if Francis wasn't traded to a team with the two strongest offensive threats in the league he would only have a 9th in pts?

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04-17-2012, 12:38 PM
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Ron Francis top 10 finishes

Outside Pittsburgh:
Assist: 4th , 5th , 7th , 10th , 10th , 10th
Points: 9th

In Pittsburgh:
Assist: 1st , 1st , 3rd , 4th , 9th , 9th
Points: 4th , 5th , 5th , 8th

You do realize the bolded are extremely unlikely anywhere else? I could be generous and give him his 3rd in assist.

That would leave: 3rd , 4th , 4th , 5th , 7th ( 6th/7th* , 6th/7th*) , 9th , 9th , 10th , 10th , 10th in assists ( *you could replace the top pittsburgh years by average and give him two 6th or 7th place which is more likely )
Oates: 1st , 1st , 1st , 2nd , 2nd , 3rd , 3rd , 4th , 4th , 5th , 6th , 7th in assists

This isn't even close.


Even at face value:

francis: 1st , 1st , 3rd , 4th , 4th , 5th , 7th , 9th , 9th , 10th , 10th , 10th
Oates: 1st , 1st , 1st , 2nd , 2nd , 3rd , 3rd , 4th , 4th , 5th , 6th , 7th

Oates is still better , but his stats weren't inflated by a specific teammate , he clearly inflated numbers of his teammate , not the other way around , proving Oates had way more impact offensively than Ron Francis.

As for Hextall Sr , he certainly was a more impactful player in his prime than Ron Francis ever was , which is what I'm basing my argument on.If you are a longevity junkie I won't convince you so might as well stop debating if this is the case.

I just don't believe in Francis' offense.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 04-17-2012 at 12:47 PM.
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04-17-2012, 12:42 PM
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I think Francis = Oates as overall players with a significant offense edge to Oates and a significant defensive edge to Francis.

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04-17-2012, 12:42 PM
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Do you realize if Francis wasn't traded to a team with the two strongest offensive threats in the league he would only have a 9th in pts?
Right, let's ignore the fact that Hextall did most of his work in what was probably the weakest period of hockey ever. Hextall took advantage of that every bit as much as Francis took advantage of his opportunity in Pittsburgh. Moreover, I don't think Francis ever played with either Lemieux or Jagr outside of the power play. So while he likely benefited a lot from having to face inferior checkers, he probably also suffered equally as much from having worse linemates and fewer prime offensive minutes at even strength.

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04-17-2012, 12:46 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Moreover, I don't think Francis ever played with either Lemieux or Jagr outside of the power play. So while he likely benefited a lot from having to face inferior checkers, he probably also suffered equally as much from having worse linemates and fewer prime offensive minutes at even strength.
Francis's was Jagr's regular center for years until he left Pittsburgh

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