HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Fantasy Hockey Talk > All Time Draft
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie
Notices

All Time Draft Fantasy league where players of the past and present meet.

Foster Hewitt Divisional Semifinals: Montreal vs. Australia

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-17-2012, 11:48 AM
  #26
jarek
Registered User
 
jarek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 8,845
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Francis's was Jagr's regular center for years until he left Pittsburgh
Are you sure that's correct? I have a very hard time believing that Jagr would ever be parted from Lemieux.

jarek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 11:49 AM
  #27
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,462
vCash: 800
Francis played with Jagr , all the time.What the hell are you talking about? Do you seriously come into this thread to pretend Francis' numbers weren't inflated by playing in Pittsburgh?

Jagr didn't play with Lemieux.I thought it was common knowledge at this point.

Francis' very top finishes are a fraud , he was a 6-8th in assist kind of guy and had not the offensive talent required to often finish in the top 10 in scoring , but playing with Jagr helped a lot as I've shown.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 11:50 AM
  #28
jarek
Registered User
 
jarek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 8,845
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Francis played with Jagr , all the time.What the hell are you talking about? Do you seriously come into this thread to pretend Francis' numbers weren't inflated by playing in Pittsburgh?
Of course they were. However, he still had to be good enough to attain those numbers. Look at this year's Leafs if you want proof enough of how playing with a top player doesn't necessarily equal production.

jarek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 11:51 AM
  #29
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,462
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think Francis = Oates as overall players with a significant offense edge to Oates and a significant defensive edge to Francis.
That's fine for me.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 11:53 AM
  #30
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,462
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Of course they were. However, he still had to be good enough to attain those numbers. Look at this year's Leafs if you want proof enough of how playing with a top player doesn't necessarily equal production.
Rob Brown top 10 pts finishes: 5th , 88-89.

Don't argue it , he had to be good enough.

(of course the comparison is ridiculous because Francis was a good player in his own right , but his offensive numbers and finishes aren't legit in Pittsburgh)

Your arguments makes no sense , on one hand Francis didn't play with Jagr and Lemieux , but on the other he has his best finishes of his career playing 2nd line duty.What the hell? Even if your argument was true ( which is not the case ) , Francis numbers would still be inflated by the powerplay time with the greatest PP player ever.But it's not what happened , he played with Jagr and Jagr is awesome.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 12:01 PM
  #31
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,861
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Are you sure that's correct? I have a very hard time believing that Jagr would ever be parted from Lemieux.
100% sure. It's been talked about many times. Including by me in the series where you had Francis and I was your opponent

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 12:05 PM
  #32
jarek
Registered User
 
jarek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 8,845
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Rob Brown top 10 pts finishes: 5th , 88-89.

Don't argue it , he had to be good enough.

(of course the comparison is ridiculous because Francis was a good player in his own right , but his offensive numbers and finishes aren't legit in Pittsburgh)

Your arguments makes no sense , on one hand Francis didn't play with Jagr and Lemieux , but on the other he has his best finishes of his career playing 2nd line duty.What the hell? Even if your argument was true ( which is not the case ) , Francis numbers would still be inflated by the powerplay time with the greatest PP player ever.But it's not what happened , he played with Jagr and Jagr is awesome.
Rob Brown played with both Jagr AND Lemieux. He never did anything significant ever again.. but I agree, he had to have some skill to be able to do what he did.

Francis' numbers in Pittsburgh are likely augmented largely by the PP. Either way, if we're going to start questioning Francis, then there's more than a few guys that I would have an issue with when it comes to who their linemates were.. including your Adam Oates and Red Kelly.

jarek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 12:11 PM
  #33
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,462
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Rob Brown played with both Jagr AND Lemieux. He never did anything significant ever again.. but I agree, he had to have some skill to be able to do what he did.

Francis' numbers in Pittsburgh are likely augmented largely by the PP. Either way, if we're going to start questioning Francis, then there's more than a few guys that I would have an issue with when it comes to who their linemates were.. including your Adam Oates and Red Kelly.
Adam Oates must have been one incredibly lucky s.o.b to have his assists numbers inflated everywhere he played by ''greater teammates''.

Funny that Oates maintained his pace and all of his teammates slowed down when Oates left.

As for Kelly , he played with great players , he was a great player.I don't know what you're implying anyway , he literally destroyed his competition.Harvey wasn't playing with pluggers either and couldn't maintain Kelly's pace offensively.

I really don't see those ''issues''.

EDIT: Brown might have played with Jagr ( I don't know , but I don't think so anyway since he played with Lemieux and jagr didn't play with him ) , but since he left in 91 and Jagr was a rookie in 91 , scoring 57 pts , I'm not sure how much playing with Jagr changed anything in 91.He wasn't a star yet.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 12:27 PM
  #34
jarek
Registered User
 
jarek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 8,845
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Adam Oates must have been one incredibly lucky s.o.b to have his assists numbers inflated everywhere he played by ''greater teammates''.

Funny that Oates maintained his pace and all of his teammates slowed down when Oates left.

As for Kelly , he played with great players , he was a great player.I don't know what you're implying anyway , he literally destroyed his competition.Harvey wasn't playing with pluggers either and couldn't maintain Kelly's pace offensively.

I really don't see those ''issues''.

EDIT: Brown might have played with Jagr ( I don't know , but I don't think so anyway since he played with Lemieux and jagr didn't play with him ) , but since he left in 91 and Jagr was a rookie in 91 , scoring 57 pts , I'm not sure how much playing with Jagr changed anything in 91.He wasn't a star yet.
Do you honestly think that Kelly would have the legacy that he does if he played on the Rangers instead of the Red Wings, for example? You don't think that playing with Howe, Lindsay, Delvecchio, Ullman, Quackenbush, etc. didn't help his offense out a lot? When he was converted to a forward in Toronto, he really only had 2 good seasons offensively, you know.. granted, he was getting old by then, but still.

But how about Mikita and Hull? I'm sure Mikita facing inferior checkers helped him a lot. Or Esposito and Orr.. sure, Espo proved he could be an elite player without Orr during the Summit Series, but still. There are so many of these examples, it would take forever to discuss them all.

Honestly, the only way that I would subtract points from a player is if he was put into a situation on a team in the ATD that was a huge difference from the situation he was in in the NHL. Unless, like Oates, the player proved that they could maintain their solid play in a variety of situations, playing with a variety of different players, there is no guarantee that you'd be getting the same type of player.

Obviously, getting Francis and Jagr back together in the ATD would be ideal. However, if the GM can assemble something similar (for example, Francis-Bathgate), I don't see any reason to discount a guy like Francis for what, admittedly, were likely inflated point totals. I don't think enough is said about real life chemistry in the ATD, to be honest with you. For example, if I had Esposito, I'd be a bit worried if I didn't have at least one strong corner man and a strong puck moving defenseman. Nearly all of his success in real life came in that sort of situation.. why on earth would you tread through the unknown and do something other than that?

In this case, Ron Francis is playing with Charlie Conacher.. an elite goal scorer. Conacher is arguably as good a goal scorer as Jagr ever was. And, unlike Jagr, Conacher was a man willing to drive to the net and plow through players to get his goals, which only helps to open up space for Francis. Sure, Conacher's playmaking was non-existent, but why does that matter? Francis was never much of a goal scorer anyways. Other than Jagr's ability to rag the puck, I don't know how much his playmaking really benefited Francis, to be quite honest with you. Attention was deflected away from Francis because of it, but Conacher, more or less, does the same. So.. I think it works, and I don't see a reason to really discount Francis' accomplishments all that much in this situation.

Seriously. I don't get why a lot of guys get the benefit of the doubt, but then we have players like Francis who were obviously very good players, but suddenly their accomplishments are a fraud because of the players they played with.

jarek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 12:30 PM
  #35
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 31,045
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
pappyshoes' ATD 2011 (I think) team says hi and goodnight.

I want to know what the GMs' thoughts are on how jet lag is going to affect this series..
I don't think you mean pappyshoes... and if you mean pappyline, you don't mean ATD2011...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Are you sure that's correct? I have a very hard time believing that Jagr would ever be parted from Lemieux.
this is epic facepalm worthy.

seventieslord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 12:31 PM
  #36
jarek
Registered User
 
jarek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 8,845
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I don't think you mean pappyshoes... and if you mean pappyline, you don't mean ATD2011...



this is epic facepalm worthy.
I meant papershoes, yeah.

Also, your face is epic facepalm worthy.

jarek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 12:37 PM
  #37
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,462
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Do you honestly think that Kelly would have the legacy that he does if he played on the Rangers instead of the Red Wings, for example? You don't think that playing with Howe, Lindsay, Delvecchio, Ullman, Quackenbush, etc. didn't help his offense out a lot? When he was converted to a forward in Toronto, he really only had 2 good seasons offensively, you know.. granted, he was getting old by then, but still.

But how about Mikita and Hull? I'm sure Mikita facing inferior checkers helped him a lot. Or Esposito and Orr.. sure, Espo proved he could be an elite player without Orr during the Summit Series, but still. There are so many of these examples, it would take forever to discuss them all.

Honestly, the only way that I would subtract points from a player is if he was put into a situation on a team in the ATD that was a huge difference from the situation he was in in the NHL. Unless, like Oates, the player proved that they could maintain their solid play in a variety of situations, playing with a variety of different players, there is no guarantee that you'd be getting the same type of player.

Obviously, getting Francis and Jagr back together in the ATD would be ideal. However, if the GM can assemble something similar (for example, Francis-Bathgate), I don't see any reason to discount a guy like Francis for what, admittedly, were likely inflated point totals. I don't think enough is said about real life chemistry in the ATD, to be honest with you. For example, if I had Esposito, I'd be a bit worried if I didn't have at least one strong corner man and a strong puck moving defenseman. Nearly all of his success in real life came in that sort of situation.. why on earth would you tread through the unknown and do something other than that?

In this case, Ron Francis is playing with Charlie Conacher.. an elite goal scorer. Conacher is arguably as good a goal scorer as Jagr ever was. And, unlike Jagr, Conacher was a man willing to drive to the net and plow through players to get his goals, which only helps to open up space for Francis. Sure, Conacher's playmaking was non-existent, but why does that matter? Francis was never much of a goal scorer anyways. Other than Jagr's ability to rag the puck, I don't know how much his playmaking really benefited Francis, to be quite honest with you. Attention was deflected away from Francis because of it, but Conacher, more or less, does the same. So.. I think it works, and I don't see a reason to really discount Francis' accomplishments all that much in this situation.

Seriously. I don't get why a lot of guys get the benefit of the doubt, but then we have players like Francis who were obviously very good players, but suddenly their accomplishments are a fraud because of the players they played with.
THis is simply ridiculous , first of all , Kelly at forward doesn't change anything , producing offense from the back end is not the same as producing at forward and one doesn't necessarily come with the other.

Second , you could say that playing on a great team helped about a lot of players who played on great team.A LOT OF THEM.The fact is you can't discredit Kelly because Kelly was arguably the 2nd best player on this squad.Harvey played with a lot of hall of famers and didn't produce as much as Kelly.Kelly still should've won 4 norris , and the AST votes are so clear I'm not even shy to call it a fact.

Your argument about Francis playing with Conacher is the same with Oates , except Oates is a much better playmaker than Francis.He will play with Hextall SR. , who finished 1st , 1st , 2nd , 5th , 5th in goal scoring , not exactly Conacher but still very good.It is also my 2nd line and not my first line , the Fedorov line is abysmal offensively and will relies on Fedorov for both offense and defense ( though Lewis will help with the defense ).

You are simply playing blind here if you try to rationalize how Jagr could've helped Francis boost his numbers.Jagr was the best player in the league except Lemieux , who played with Pittsburgh also.Jagr wasn't a playmaker or a goal scorer , he was a game controller , he controlled shifts he played in.It's much easier to produce points when you have the best player in the league controlling the shifts for you offensively.

Conacher was a good goal scorer but can he control shifts in the ATD to the extent Jagr did in the NHL?It's impossible , you would need to have the real Jagr in order to do so.The more deep you want to go with that Francis thing the more Francis looks bad in my opinion.

The examples you gave were all bad because Mikita,Hull,Orr and Esposito were tremendously superior players than Francis.Mikita won scoring titles and HUll was a sick goal scorer , Esposito won scoring titles and Orr was the greatest defenseman of all-time.

Francis didn't prove anything outside of Pittsburgh that I'm not willing to give him.A 6th in assists 13th in pts type of player with better and worst years.Extreme longevity.(or something similar to that , with a great defensive game)


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 04-17-2012 at 12:43 PM.
BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 12:43 PM
  #38
jarek
Registered User
 
jarek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 8,845
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
THis is simply ridiculous , first of all , Kelly at forward doesn't change anything , producing offense from the back end is not the same as producing at forward and one doesn't necessarily come with the other.

Second , you could say that playing on a great team helped about a lot of players who played on great team.A LOT OF THEM.The fact is you can't discredit Kelly because Kelly was arguably the 2nd best player on this squad.Harvey played with a lot of hall of famers and didn't produce as much as Kelly.Kelly still should've won 4 norris , and the AST votes are so clear I'm not even shy to call it a fact.

Your argument about Francis playing with Conacher is the same with Oates , except Oates is a much better playmaker than Francis.He will play with Hextall SR. , who finished 1st , 1st , 2nd , 5th , 5th in goal scoring , not exactly Conacher but still very good.It is also my 2nd line and not my first line , the Fedorov line is abysmal offensively and will relies on Fedorov for both offense and defense ( though Lewis will help with the defense ).

You are simply playing blind here if you try to rationalize how Jagr could've helped Francis boost his numbers.Jagr was the best player in the league except Lemieux , who played with Pittsburgh also.Jagr wasn't a playmaker or a goal scorer , he was a game controller , he controlled shifts he played in.It's much easier to produce points when you have the best player in the league controlling the shifts for you offensively.

Conacher was a good goal scorer but can he control shifts in the ATD to the extent Jagr did in the NHL.It's impossible , you would need to have the real Jagr in order to do so.The more deep you want to go with that Francis thing the more Francis looks bad in my opinion.
How do you even know what Conacher did? Conacher could have controlled the play every bit as much as Jagr did in his time, but since we have no tape of it, it's hard to say. I've heard stories that goalies actually got out of the way of Conacher's slapshot. Can Jagr claim that as well? To say it's impossible is ridiculous, you don't even have a clue, and neither do I really, but I don't think it's all that farfetched.

I'm not disputing the deficiencies of the Fedorov line, since I largely agree.

Was Kelly arguably the 2nd best player on the team? Or the 2nd best player on the team because of ___________? No one can say for sure, because AFAIK, he didn't play D anywhere else..

Agree that producing offense from D is different than from F. It was just an example.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on the Francis point, regardless. I don't see this as anywhere near as much of an issue as you do. The fact is, you're in the minority with your opinion. Francis has consistently gone in the top-150 or so in nearly every draft AFAIK, and he wouldn't go that high if people thought his offense was a fraud like you do. Good day, sir.

jarek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 12:50 PM
  #39
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,462
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Was Kelly arguably the 2nd best player on the team? Or the 2nd best player on the team because of ___________? No one can say for sure, because AFAIK, he didn't play D anywhere else..
.
huh??? what kind of argument is that?

I'm just going to leave it there sitting.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 12:51 PM
  #40
jarek
Registered User
 
jarek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 8,845
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
huh??? what the hell is this?
I'm not sure. Probably another moment where seventies is going to do a


jarek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 12:57 PM
  #41
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,462
vCash: 800
It could also be argued that it helped Howe a lot to have one of the greatest offensive defenseman of all-time in the back end , he did win 4 consecutive scoring titles in Kelly's prime.

I think they all helped each other.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 01:00 PM
  #42
jarek
Registered User
 
jarek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 8,845
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
It could also be argued that it helped Howe a lot to have one of the greatest offensive defenseman of all-time in the back end , he did win 4 consecutive scoring titles in Kelly's prime.

I think the
You're right. This is why I think it's largely nonsense to start "downgrading" players because of who they played with, because this plays a role with almost everyone. Very few of the great players in history played with unspectacular linemates. Mikita played with Mohns and FFS I can't remember that guy's name again.. Kenny Wharram. Bathgate played with Prentice and lollerskatesman. These situations are the exception, for the most part.. not the rule.. and only the truly elite of the elite are able to make the most of those situations, most players in those situations just disappear into obscurity it seems.

jarek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 01:01 PM
  #43
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,462
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
You're right. This is why I think it's largely nonsense to start "downgrading" players because of who they played with, because this plays a role with almost everyone. Very few of the great players in history played with unspectacular linemates. Mikita played with Mohns and FFS I can't remember that guy's name again.. Kenny Wharram. Bathgate played with Prentice and lollerskatesman. These situations are the exception, for the most part.. not the rule.. and only the truly elite of the elite are able to make the most of those situations, most players in those situations just disappear into obscurity it seems.
Jagr maintained his pace multiple years after Francis was gone.Francis didn't helped Jagr a lot.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 01:04 PM
  #44
jarek
Registered User
 
jarek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 8,845
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Jagr maintained his pace multiple years after Francis was gone.Francis didn't helped Jagr a lot.
I don't disagree. Jagr was one of the very few players in history who could do great things by himself. However, I don't think its fair to Francis to just say that his accomplishments are a fraud because he played with Jagr.

jarek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 01:08 PM
  #45
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,462
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
I don't disagree. Jagr was one of the very few players in history who could do great things by himself. However, I don't think its fair to Francis to just say that his accomplishments are a fraud because he played with Jagr.
What are they then? Does Francis finish 1st in assist twice and all those mid-top10 pts finishes without Jagr and Pittsburgh? Very unlikely , making his record a boosted one which we should acknowledged and judge accordingly.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 01:09 PM
  #46
jarek
Registered User
 
jarek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 8,845
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
What are they then? Does Francis finish 1st in assist twice and all those mid-top10 pts finishes without Jagr and Pittsburgh? Very unlikely , making his record a boosted one which we should acknowledged and judge accordingly.
Again.. I don't disagree.. however, if Francis is in the right situation (and in my opinion, he's in a pretty good situation in this series), then I don't really think it's a huge issue.

jarek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 01:11 PM
  #47
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,462
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Again.. I don't disagree.. however, if Francis is in the right situation (and in my opinion, he's in a pretty good situation in this series), then I don't really think it's a huge issue.
Conacher is not to the ATD what Jagr was to the NHL.He is not in an ideal situation , and Steve Shutt isn't helping a lot neither.Now you take that + the fact Australia's second line is underwhelming offensively , and you have a team that is crying for offense , especially against a team like mine who can roll three strong lines with two of them strong defensively.My team is as good if not better defensively considering all lines but my team can also produce decent offense which is not something I can see from Australia.

I took a lot of heat for my 2nd pairing , but it is superior to Mohns-Carlyle which is a complete mess and will get exposed.Potvin is stuck with Baun who is more than underwhelming as a 1st pairing guy.I find it laughable that Australia mentionned my defense as a weakness when Australia's defense is so poorly assembled and overall inferior to mine.My Beck-Boyle has be shown to be underrated overall and their style match well with each others.My 1st pairing who will see the most ice-time is also a good match.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 04-17-2012 at 01:20 PM.
BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 01:15 PM
  #48
jarek
Registered User
 
jarek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 8,845
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Conacher is not to the ATD what Jagr was to the NHL.He is not in an ideal situation , and Steve Shutt isn't helping a lot neither.Now you take that + the fact Australia's second line is underwhelming offensively , and you have a team that is crying for offense , especially against a team like mine who can roll three strong lines with two of them strong defensively.My team is as good if not better defensively considering all lines but my team can also produce decent offense which is not something I buy from Australia.
Then we will have to agree to disagree.

jarek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 01:19 PM
  #49
overpass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,969
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Rob Brown played with both Jagr AND Lemieux. He never did anything significant ever again.. but I agree, he had to have some skill to be able to do what he did.

Francis' numbers in Pittsburgh are likely augmented largely by the PP. Either way, if we're going to start questioning Francis, then there's more than a few guys that I would have an issue with when it comes to who their linemates were.. including your Adam Oates and Red Kelly.
Jagr was 16 during Brown's big season.

Francis had his best PP season in Carolina in 2001-02. His Pittsburgh numbers were boosted by Jagr's dominant even strength play more than anything.

overpass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 01:20 PM
  #50
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,738
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
I don't disagree. Jagr was one of the very few players in history who could do great things by himself. However, I don't think its fair to Francis to just say that his accomplishments are a fraud because he played with Jagr.
It isn't fair. Francis was an all star in his own right.

BraveCanadian is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:09 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.