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Foster Hewitt Divisional Semifinals: Montreal vs. Australia

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Old
04-17-2012, 01:22 PM
  #51
BenchBrawl
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
It isn't fair. Francis was an all star in his own right.
Based on what outside of Pittsburgh? 9th in pts? His assist finishes? Define all-star.

Francis was a star because he was good defensively and in the heat of the moment you looked at his numbers and they were great , but how great is he really offensively without the league's top player?

I'm not suggesting Francis was incapable of offense , I'm saying I don't believe he was as elite compared to the pool as he was when in Pittsburgh.In the ATD , his offense is highly questionnable , especially on a 1st line , with no ATD-Jagr-like player to boost him.

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04-17-2012, 01:27 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Based on what outside of Pittsburgh? 9th in pts? His assist finishes? Define all-star.

Francis was a star because he was good defensively and in the heat of the moment you looked at his numbers and they were great , but how great is he really offensively without the league's top player?
How about because he carried a terrible franchise for years before he even got to Pittsburgh?

And because even if he never donned a Pittsburgh uniform in his career he would still have put up close to 1200 career points?

I mean this is a guy putting up close to a point per game at age 38 in the dead puck era playing for Carolina and you don't think he has all star type ability if he doesn't play with Jagr??

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04-17-2012, 01:30 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
How about because he carried a terrible franchise for years before he even got to Pittsburgh?

And because even if he never donned a Pittsburgh uniform in his career he would still have put up close to 1200 career points?

I mean this is a guy putting up close to a point per game at age 38 in the dead puck era playing for Carolina and you don't think he has all star type ability if he doesn't play with Jagr??
carreer pts totals lol

Francis is a stat compiler and people are trying to sell him as an elite player in this thread , I'm not going to buy it.

And where did he carried Hartford anyway? You seem to think I don't buy Francis as a 1st line center in the real NHL.This is not the case , I know Francis was a good player , but 1st line ATD offense material? give me a break

This conversion comes from jarek trying to imply Francis is equal to Oates offensively.I don't even know where we are going with this , probably in the ''define X word'' territory (all-star , elite , star , 1st line player etc )

What I said:

Francis can produce without Jagr , but can't produce to the 1st in assist 5th in points kind of level , making these finishes irrelevant to the real analysis of Francis' potential offensively.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 04-17-2012 at 01:39 PM.
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04-17-2012, 01:39 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
This conversion comes from jarek trying to imply Francis is equal to Oates offensively.
He probably is.. guys as biased towards playmaking as much as Francis and Oates were need guys who can bury their chances.

Both of them had their big seasons when they capable guns on their wings.

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04-17-2012, 01:43 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
He probably is.. guys as biased towards playmaking as much as Francis and Oates were need guys who can bury their chances.

Both of them had their big seasons when they capable guns on their wings.
Do you realize Oate's record is vastly superior than Francis? Jagr maintained his pace without Francis , Oates maintained his pace without Hull/Neely/Bondra.It seems to me that Oates had more impact on his teammates than Francis , and that his teammates had less impact on Oates than Jagr had with Francis.But all of this is irrelevant , as Oate's record is simply better , by a lot actually.

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04-17-2012, 01:44 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Oates maintained his pace without Hull/Neely/Bondra
Oh yeah? Show me.

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But all of this is irrelevant , as Oate's record is simply better , by a lot actually.
I'm not convinced of that. The only thing that makes this at all relevant is that Francis as a 1st liner is close to your second liner.

So obviously you should have an advantage, but you don't need to tear Francis down to get it.

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04-17-2012, 01:49 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Oh yeah? Show me.
You misunderstood , I was talking about each individually.

You seem to think Francis was the big playmaker making it happen for Jagr and Lemieux.Your analysis is twisted , as Oates teammates weren't far superior than him and didn't controlled the play.Oates was definitely controlling the play in each of these three cases , while Francis played with the game controller Jagr.Your metaphor doesn't work at all.Oates played with good goal scorers but his actual playmaking skills is showing when you look at the statistics of these goal scorers.Francis didn't change a whole lot and was largely carried offensively in these top years.

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04-17-2012, 01:52 PM
  #58
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assists:
francis: 1st* , 1st* , 3rd* , 4th* , 4th , 5th , 7th , 9th* , 9th* , 10th , 10th , 10th
Oates: 1st , 1st , 1st , 2nd , 2nd , 3rd , 3rd , 4th , 4th , 5th , 6th , 7th

points:
francis: 4th* , 5th* , 5th* , 8th* , 9th
Oates: 3rd , 3rd , 3rd , 7th , 10th , 10th , 10th

And that's without taking into account the Pittsburgh factor that I'm arguing here.

* - Francis in pittsburgh.

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04-17-2012, 01:56 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
You misunderstood , I was talking about each individually.

You seem to think Francis was the big playmaker making it happen for Jagr and Lemieux.Your analysis is twisted , as Oates teammates weren't far superior than him and didn't controlled the play.Oates was definitely controlling the play in each of these three cases , while Francis played with the game controller Jagr.Your metaphor doesn't work at all.Oates played with good goal scorers but his actual playmaking skills is showing when you look at the statistics of these goal scorers.
No I don't think Francis was the big playmaker making things happen for Jagr and Lemieux. However you are being incredibly overzealous minimizing Francis' contribution.

Quote:
Francis didn't change a whole lot and was largely carried offensively in these top years.
I absolutely hate this line of reasoning that seems to be getting applied pretty liberally around here the last while.

Was Francis the best offensive player on his line with Jagr? Absolutely not.

Was he a passenger? Absolutely not.

Someone had to be the defensive conscience of that line. Someone had to do the dirty work. Francis did these things and added in a lot of offensive ability too.

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04-17-2012, 01:58 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
assists:
francis: 1st* , 1st* , 3rd* , 4th* , 4th , 5th , 7th , 9th* , 9th* , 10th , 10th , 10th
Oates: 1st , 1st , 1st , 2nd , 2nd , 3rd , 3rd , 4th , 4th , 5th , 6th , 7th

points:
francis: 4th* , 5th* , 5th* , 8th* , 9th
Oates: 3rd , 3rd , 3rd , 7th , 10th , 10th , 10th

And that's without taking into account the Pittsburgh factor that I'm arguing here.

* - Francis in pittsburgh.
Why does it only count when Francis plays with Jagr and not when Oates plays with Hull/Neely/Bondra in succession?

And if you think that it does matter because, as you claim, Oates produced at the same rate without Hull/Neely/Bondra, then show me.

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04-17-2012, 01:58 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post

Someone had to be the defensive conscience of that line. Someone had to do the dirty work. Francis did these things and added in a lot of offensive ability too.
weren't we arguing offense here?

so Francis became such a great player in Pittsburgh that despite being a defensive conscience and doing dirty work , he became a better playmaker and point producer , and it wasn't because he played with Jagr?

Sure man , makes a lot of sense.

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04-17-2012, 02:01 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Why does it only count when Francis plays with Jagr and not when Oates plays with Hull/Neely/Bondra in succession?

And if you think that it does matter because, as you claim, Oates produced at the same rate without Hull/Neely/Bondra, then show me.
lol.

i already told you that I meant separately.None of these guys were superior than Oates to the degree that Jagr was to francis.It's not the same thing , Oates wasn't carried by these guys offensively and I'm sure the puck was more on his stick than them most of the time.He was the brain of those lines.

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04-17-2012, 02:01 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
weren't we arguing offense here?

so Francis became such a great player in Pittsburgh that despite being a defensive conscience and doing dirty work , he became a better playmaker and point producer , and it wasn't because he played with Jagr?

Sure man , makes a lot of sense.
I'm not claiming that he wasn't helped by playing with Jagr. Who wouldn't be?

What I am saying is that you're overstating how much.

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04-17-2012, 02:02 PM
  #64
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Well than, there's bit quite a few things that need to be cleared up that have been posted here since I last checked.

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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
First of all I think it's funny that Velociraptor brings up defense to make a point as I'm convinced my first two pairings are superior to Australia.

You have a nice forward group but mine is simply more talented and balanced on all lines.

The only place where I see an edge in your line-up is with Bernie Parent.
Your second pairing is most definitely not superior, and we'll get to that in one minute.

That's a pretty bold comment to kick things off that your entire group is more balanced and talented, especially where you haven't been in depth AT ALL with any of your line comparisons.

Mind you, Parent > Lumley is far and away the biggest advantage in the series, there's absolutely no parity in goaltending here.

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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
First Pairing: Howell-Kelly vs Potvin-Baun

I think it's pretty obvious my first pairing is superior on that one by the simple fact you have Baun on it.Kelly and Potvin are pretty much a wash but Baun is inferior to Barry Beck who is my 4th defenseman , so vs Howell it's not really close.

This is Baun AST votings:

Quote:
Bob Baun:

1962-63: 9th* (48/70 GP)
1963-64: 5th* (52/70 GP)
1964-65: 8th
1968-69: 11th
1969-70: 16th
1970-71: 8th
The first two were during the 1ST AST 2ND AST era and in both cases Baun ended missing more than half the games in the second half of the season.
Unless Baun has a fighter reputation I'm unaware of , he's also a very undisciplined player , finishing top 10 in PIMs 4 times.

Advantage Montréal.
First of all, did you actually just say Barry Beck is a better defenseman than Bob Baun? Did a top-10 player of all time say something in regards to this about him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Hull
The night Baun missed a game in Chicago, we started taking liberties. We realized he wasn't in town, so we could get away with a lot more. When Baun was around, that right side was like an obstacle course
I was worried that if I was going to be in a series with you, you would make all sorts of outlandish claims. Here we are...

Baun had 40 career fights and if you bothered to read any of my bios before assuming things:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Pelletier
As for his fighting, he always showed up for the fight, he was fearless.
You may have missed his Norris voting too, which includes a higher finish than Beck and is essentially equal.

Quote:
5th (70-71), 7th (63-64), 8th (64-65), 10th (68-69)
Offensively, Beck is probably better, but like it or not, Bob Baun is one of the best defensive defenseman of all time. He is significantly better than mediocre #4 defenseman Barry Beck, trust me, I had him last year.

I have a pure shutdown pairing, Potvin and Baun are both highly reputable defensive defenseman. Potvin obviously serves as the offensive pivot, another thing he is spectacular at, but when he's needed, he will stay back with Baun and give your lines hell when trying to cross the blueline. I don't see any physicality from either of your two defensemen, besides both being strong defensively, and obviously having Kelly there for his offensive excellence, I see serious problems for this pairing dealing with my defensively oriented forwards, and getting the puck out of the zone, because neither was known for physicality.

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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Second pairing: Dan Boyle - Barry Beck vs Doug Mohns - Randy Carlyle

Your second pairing is horribly assembled , Mohns is a fine n3 puckmoving defenseman , yet you mix him with a questionable inferior puck moving defenseman in Carlyle.Who is going ot take care of the defense on that pairing? Mohns? If that is the case it is less than ideal considering his skillset.The skills of both pairings is very similar , but the chemistry of mine is a good match while yours is a complete mess.

Advantage Montréal
I still don't understand this... Why is Carlyle so out of place next to Doug Mohns? I'd rather just have you read the biographies I've provided for you rather than copy and paste quotes, but since you seem to bypass those, I'll prove that Mohns is the stay-at-home defenseman on this unit, which makes it far from a mess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoH
he worked as a stay-at-home defender who added stability and leadership to the young lineups
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougmohns.com
...he was a physical player.
I still don't know why people are so confused by this pairing, sure it takes away from Mohns ability, but he can put his offensive talents to use on the power play, he is a solid stay-at-home defenseman who can assume the defensive role, while Carlyle can rush and make breakout passes.

I think Boyle has made his way onto a second pairing, but is still kind of underwhelming. He's not big nor strong, and will have a difficult time handling some of the Roos' players. And Beck is in the same boat as Boyle, nothing spectacular on a second pairing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
More on Barry Beck:

Norris Voting:6th , 6th , 7th , 7th , 9th

AST Voting: 5th ,6th , 6th , 8th , 9th

Hart Voting:6th

(very strong competition , mainly guys like Bourque , Robinson , Park , Potvin , Salming , Savard , Lapointe , Coffey etc...)

scouting reports(work by seventieslord):
If you read the Carlyle bio you'll essentially see the same, besides being a lot less physical, and a lot better offensively. Carlyle's Norris season was a lot better than any of Beck's season, and he was the sole bright star on a terrible hockey team, and he also remained consistent throughout his career.

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04-17-2012, 02:07 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Rob Brown played with both Jagr AND Lemieux.
this is an even bigger facepalm than my face.

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04-17-2012, 02:08 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
lol.

i already told you that I meant separately.None of these guys were superior than Oates to the degree that Jagr was to francis.It's not the same thing , Oates wasn't carried by these guys offensively and I'm sure the puck was more on his stick than them most of the time.He was the brain of those lines.
So what are you saying then, that Oates "carried" Hull and Neely and Bondra, then?

I must have a really antiquated concept of team sport, and players complementing one another or something..

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04-17-2012, 02:08 PM
  #67
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actually, I don't see why it is so absurd to say Beck is better than Baun.

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04-17-2012, 02:10 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Either way, if we're going to start questioning Francis, then there's more than a few guys that I would have an issue with when it comes to who their linemates were.. including your Adam Oates and Red Kelly.
You must have a really high opinion of Joey Juneau. See: Boston Bruins 1992-93. Oates didn't need a stud goalscorer to be dominant; that is a myth.

I'm not sure it's false to claim that Montreal's skaters have an advantage on basícally all of the top units. The top-3 forward lines are all pretty clearly in favor of Montreal on a straight comparison. Potvin and Kelly are equals, but Howell is clearly better than Bobby Baun. The second pairing is really the only one of the top units where Australia can make up ground here. Mohns is the best player on either second pairing, but Carlyle is the worst, and the chemistry issues with this pairing have been talked to death. It's not a wild claim that Beck - Boyle will be more effective, overall.

It looks to me like Montreal will control the play in this series. Parent over Lumley is a pretty good advantage for Australia, though. Coaching...I dunno. Will Burns try to match his third line vs. Australia's 1st line to slow down Conacher? And let the Nighbor line go against the Fedorov line and the second line go against whomever? That seems like the rational strategy here, but I don't know what Reen has planned. Burns is probably the best modern coach other than Arbour at getting the matchups he wants (Bowman didn't really care), and I think Ramsay vs. Conacher and Nighbor vs. Fedorov are pretty good matchups for the Habs when he can get them.

I'm curious to see if the GMs here will consider any roster/strategy changes. Will Australia use the Sanderson line more than the Holik line against Montreal's smaller more "subtle" centers? Will Paul MacLean be brought to improve the second powerplay unit? Will Montreal slot in Kurt Fraser in Marleau's place on the 4th line to make that a gritty face-punching unit in what could be a pretty combative series?

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04-17-2012, 02:11 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by jarek View Post
You're right. This is why I think it's largely nonsense to start "downgrading" players because of who they played with, because this plays a role with almost everyone. Very few of the great players in history played with unspectacular linemates. Mikita played with Mohns and FFS I can't remember that guy's name again.. Kenny Wharram. Bathgate played with Prentice and lollerskatesman. These situations are the exception, for the most part.. not the rule.. and only the truly elite of the elite are able to make the most of those situations, most players in those situations just disappear into obscurity it seems.
You're on to something Jarek, my experiment is being unveiled.

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04-17-2012, 02:12 PM
  #70
BenchBrawl
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
So what are you saying then, that Oates "carried" Hull and Neely and Bondra, then?

I must have a really antiquated concept of team sport, and players complementing one another or something..
No , no , no , I'm not saying he carried them , but they complemented each other , while I think Francis got carried by Jagr in a way.Of course Francis is still capable of having top 10 assist finishes without Jagr , but Jagr carried him to higher finishes , and Francis didn't carry Jagr to anything.

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04-17-2012, 02:14 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
You must have a really high opinion of Joey Juneau. See: Boston Bruins 1992-93. Oates didn't need a stud goalscorer to be dominant; that is a myth.

I'm not sure it's false to claim that Montreal's skaters have an advantage on basícally all of the top units. The top-3 forward lines are all pretty clearly in favor of Montreal on a straight comparison. Potvin and Kelly are equals, but Howell is clearly better than Bobby Baun. The second pairing is really the only one of the top units where Australia can make up ground here. Mohns is the best player on either second pairing, but Carlyle is the worst, and the chemistry issues with this pairing have been talked to death. It's not a wild claim that Beck - Boyle will be more effective, overall.

It looks to me like Montreal will control the play in this series. Parent over Lumley is a pretty good advantage for Australia, though. Coaching...I dunno. Will Burns try to match his third line vs. Australia's 1st line to slow down Conacher? And let the Nighbor line go against the Fedorov line and the second line go against whomever? That seems like the rational strategy here, but I don't know what Reen has planned. Burns is probably the best modern coach other than Arbour at getting the matchups he wants (Bowman didn't really care), and I think Ramsay vs. Conacher and Nighbor vs. Fedorov are pretty good matchups for the Habs when he can get them.

I'm curious to see if the GMs here will consider any roster/strategy changes. Will Australia use the Sanderson line more than the Holik line against Montreal's smaller more "subtle" centers? Will Paul MacLean be brought to improve the second powerplay unit? Will Montreal slot in Kurt Fraser in Marleau's place on the 4th line to make that a gritty face-punching unit in what could be a pretty combative series?

No surprise there.

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04-17-2012, 02:21 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
I was worried that if I was going to be in a series with you, you would make all sorts of outlandish claims. Here we are...
already getting personal , you can't help it with me huh?

If Baun is ''one of the greatest defensive defenseman of all-time'' then why doesn't it shows in his record? And how is Beck ''Mediocre''?

You present things the way you want just as much as anybody , but with a undeserved condescending tone on top of it.

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04-17-2012, 02:23 PM
  #73
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Count me among those not believing Baun is a ton better than Beck. I think Baun's record is probably a little undervalued by his game, but Beck's record looks a little better to me. Gun to my head I take Baun, but it's closer than I initially thought as well.

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04-17-2012, 02:26 PM
  #74
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Wasn't Baun a n4 defenseman for a good part of his career? He will now have to face 1st pairing duty in a incredibly tougher league.I don't see the greatness in Baun , if he was as dominant defensively as Velociraptor said , why doesnt he have a better record than that?

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04-17-2012, 02:27 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
No surprise there.
Do you actually disagree that their top three lines and top pairing are clearly better...or is this just you being you?

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