HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Fantasy Hockey Talk > All Time Draft
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

All Time Draft Fantasy league where players of the past and present meet.

Foster Hewitt Divisional Semifinals: Montreal vs. Australia

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-17-2012, 03:28 PM
  #76
Velociraptor
Registered User
 
Velociraptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Maritimes
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,803
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
1st line: Denneny - Nighbor - Balderis vs Shutt - Francis - Conacher

I think my top line is better both offensively and defensively.Conacher is obviously great , but while Francis is a good defensive player , his offense record , especially outside of the inflated Pittsburgh years is underwhelming.Steve Shutt record is also quite poor considering he played on the first line of a dynasty with the greatest player in the world.Francis can't compare to Nighbor defensively or offensively , and I already have the chemistry thing going on with my dynasty duo.

Advantage Montréal
You didn't add anything to prove this? You just downplayed my line instead.



fantastic way to compare lines, really.

Nighbor's best offensive seasons (OTT years, stacked team): 89, 88, 74, 73, 69, 53, 46, 42, 24
Francis's best offensive seasons (HFD years): 87, 80, *77, 74, 69, 68, 64, 62, **61
Francis's best offensive seasons (PIT years): 99, 97, 91, 83, 83, 76

* - Traded to Pittsburgh with 14 games remaining in the season
* - Played 53 games, at a pace of 1.45 PPG, adjusted would be 116 points at 89%

So we've learned two things from this study.

- Francis is a better offensive player than Frank Nighbor.
- Francis, albeit joining a much more talented team in Pittsburgh, essentially scored at the same level he did when he was Hartford as you can plainly see.

Shutt is much better suited on a first line than Helmuts Balderis, and he is a better goal scorer. So I wouldn't concede so quickly that your group is better than mine.

Velociraptor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 03:29 PM
  #77
Velociraptor
Registered User
 
Velociraptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Maritimes
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,803
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
No surprise there.

Velociraptor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 03:30 PM
  #78
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 8,153
vCash: 500
Raptor, Nighbor also had peak seasons in the NHA and the PCHA. Jesus...both of you guys are going off half-cocked all over the place so far.

Sturminator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 03:31 PM
  #79
Velociraptor
Registered User
 
Velociraptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Maritimes
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,803
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Do you actually disagree that their top three lines and top pairing are clearly better...or is this just you being you?
Clearly better? Come off it, the first line is definitely not "clearly better" and besides the fact a top-five defensive player of all time is there, it's really nothing spectacular defensively.

I won't comment on the third line because that's the best line on the Canadiens, and is a strong shutdown line, but I won't rest my case on the others as there is plenty to be discussed on the other lines, and I don't see Potvin-Baun far off from Robinson-Bouchard, and that's a better pairing than Kelly-Howell. I think Potvin is getting heavily underrated here, he's the best player in the series.

Velociraptor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 03:33 PM
  #80
Velociraptor
Registered User
 
Velociraptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Maritimes
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,803
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Raptor, Nighbor also had peak seasons in the NHA and the PCHA. Jesus...both of you guys are going off half-cocked all over the place so far.
Well I'd like to see something else that could possibly suggest Nighbor is better offensively, but right now I'm fairly confident that Ron Francis is the better offensive player of the two.

Velociraptor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 03:33 PM
  #81
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 8,153
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
You you ****ing serious? So because I don't own a franchise, I'm supposed to praise them all equally?! What is this, Raptor...kindergarden? Every team is special...every team is good! Let's fingerpaint with emoticons and eat paste.

Sturminator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 03:36 PM
  #82
Velociraptor
Registered User
 
Velociraptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Maritimes
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,803
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
You you ****ing serious? So because I don't own a franchise, I'm supposed to praise them all equally?! What is this, Raptor...kindergarden? Every team is special...every team is good! Let's fingerpaint with emoticons and eat paste.
Sturm I don't accuse you of solely praising this team, but the praise you give this team is pretty abnormal. I'm not the only one who has realized either, I'm not trying to make enemies with everyone but I just think that especially in the assassination thread you made the team out to be a lot better than it actually is.

Velociraptor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 03:38 PM
  #83
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 44,890
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Wasn't Baun a n4 defenseman for a good part of his career? He will now have to face 1st pairing duty in a incredibly tougher league.I don't see the greatness in Baun , if he was as dominant defensively as Velociraptor said , why doesnt he have a better record than that?
Baun was a #4 defenseman but that was probably the best top 4 of all time. I mean, Allan Stanley was basically their #3.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 03:39 PM
  #84
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 8,153
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Clearly better? Come off it, the first line is definitely not "clearly better" and besides the fact a top-five defensive player of all time is there, it's really nothing spectacular defensively.

I won't comment on the third line because that's the best line on the Canadiens, and is a strong shutdown line, but I won't rest my case on the others as there is plenty to be discussed on the other lines, and I don't see Potvin-Baun far off from Robinson-Bouchard, and that's a better pairing than Kelly-Howell. I think Potvin is getting heavily underrated here, he's the best player in the series.
You forgot to mention the second lines.

You can't seriously believe that Baun is in Howell's league. Was Bob Baun ever a first pairing defenseman? Wasn't he behind at least Horton and Brewer and often Stanley, as well, for pretty much his whole career?

The first lines aren't even all that close. You've got a clear advantage on the right wing, but Montreal crushes you at the other two positions.

Sturminator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 03:40 PM
  #85
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,980
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Baun was a #4 defenseman but that was probably the best top 4 of all time. I mean, Allan Stanley was basically their #3.
I don't disagree , but I still don't see how Baun is really better than Beck , even knowing this.Seems like Velociraptor thinks Baun is something he isn't.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 03:45 PM
  #86
Velociraptor
Registered User
 
Velociraptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Maritimes
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,803
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
You forgot to mention the second lines.

You can't seriously believe that Baun is in Howell's league. Was Bob Baun ever a first pairing defenseman? Wasn't he behind at least Horton and Brewer and often Stanley, as well, for pretty much his whole career?

The first lines aren't even all that close. You've got a clear advantage on the right wing, but Montreal crushes you at the other two positions.
No I don't think Baun is in Howell's league, but I do think he is being underrated for his ability. I think the pairing has excellent chemistry and that's what makes it closer than it looks on paper, I think Montreal's first pairing is better, but everyone is making it seem that Montreal's is light years ahead of Australia's top unit, when Baun nor Potvin are not getting a lot of credit.

Sturm please at least provide something that tells me Nighbor is better than Francis offensively if you're going to say that. Yes I know Francis, despite being a solid defensive player is not in Nighbor's echelon. But it appears so that Francis is the better player offensively, also compared to his contemporaries he had the tougher competition.

Velociraptor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 03:46 PM
  #87
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 44,890
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Was Bob Baun ever a first pairing defenseman? Wasn't he behind at least Horton and Brewer and often Stanley, as well, for pretty much his whole career?
I don't know about applying this line of reasoning to stacked dynasty teams. I mean, are we going to start criticizing Guy Lapointe for being a "#3" for most of his career?

On the other hand, lack of all star recognition for Baun during his career is certainly fair game

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 03:46 PM
  #88
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 8,153
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Sturm I don't accuse you of solely praising this team, but the praise you give this team is pretty abnormal. I'm not the only one who has realized either, I'm not trying to make enemies with everyone but I just think that especially in the assassination thread you made the team out to be a lot better than it actually is.
I seem to recall calling about 8-9 teams strong contenders; Montreal was one of them. The Habs happen to have a bunch of players that I know a lot about, and a few who have been underrated. I think I've been vindicated by the facts regarding Boyle, Beck and Balderis.

So when I post the results of the 1923 Cup Finals which confirm that Joe Simpson was really, really good you guys can accuse me of being partisan towards Lada, ok?

Sturminator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 03:48 PM
  #89
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,138
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't know about applying this line of reasoning to stacked dynasty teams. I mean, are we going to start criticizing Guy Lapointe for being a "#3" for most of his career?

On the other hand, lack of all star recognition for Baun during his career is certainly fair game
Yeah except that if you say the line of reasoning is that he was behind a stacked defense.. doesn't that automatically make him unlikely to get the all star recognition when he's 3rd in line on his own team?

BraveCanadian is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 03:53 PM
  #90
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 8,153
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't know about applying this line of reasoning to stacked dynasty teams. I mean, are we going to start criticizing Guy Lapointe for being a "#3" for most of his career?

On the other hand, lack of all star recognition for Baun during his career is certainly fair game
Lapointe is kind of a special case because he was that team's #1 special teams defenseman. Had that not been the case...of course we wouldn't value him as highly. There's no shame in not being as good as Toronto's top three, but that makes it awfully hard to sell Baun as being more than the sum of his AST finishes, and those are really not that great. Baun seems like a guy who has been overrated in the ATD because he played on a dynasty.

Sturminator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 03:58 PM
  #91
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,980
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Clearly better? Come off it, the first line is definitely not "clearly better" and besides the fact a top-five defensive player of all time is there, it's really nothing spectacular defensively.

.
And what is so spectacular about your first line defensively except Ron Francis , who is inferior than Nighbor?

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 04:00 PM
  #92
markrander87
Registered User
 
markrander87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,860
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Yeah except that if you say the line of reasoning is that he was behind a stacked defense.. doesn't that automatically make him unlikely to get the all star recognition when he's 3rd in line on his own team?
Exactly what I was thinking.

However I do thank TDMM for bringing up the Lapointe comparison. That style of digging at a guy like Baun is not correct.

markrander87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 04:05 PM
  #93
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,320
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Raptor, Nighbor also had peak seasons in the NHA and the PCHA. Jesus...both of you guys are going off half-cocked all over the place so far.
Indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Well I'd like to see something else that could possibly suggest Nighbor is better offensively, but right now I'm fairly confident that Ron Francis is the better offensive player of the two.
You were in all the lower level drafts we did last year, right? In doing percentage comparisons it was clear that a pre-expansion player is at a disadvantage compared to a post-expansion player, and we all made concessions in this regard when it came time to make comparisons. I would take Nighbor’s best 5 seasons over Francis’ best 5 Hartford seasons, without a second thought. The fact that they are even close is a huge advantage for Nighbor.

Then there is the fact that you cut off his five pre-NHL seasons, some of which would be of the same caliber, strengthening his peak and prime. This also is just a roughhand method that doesn’t take into consideration the much different levels of assists in Nighbor’s time, and Nighbor, a primary playmaker, is one player that would be done a disservice by not considering that when rattling off a line of points percentages.

The question of who would be the better offensive player based on percentages needs three more sharp knives applied, and I’m not prepared to unsheathe mine, because I don’t think anyone would 100% agree with the way I do it:

1. Nighbor’s points would need to be turned into some sort of “adjusted points” by multiplying his assist totals and everyone else’s up by a certain factor, then calculating new percentages from that,
2. Francis’ Pittsburgh years need to be adjusted downwards to reflect what his actual talent level probably would have earned him in those seasons and not what Mario and Jagr helped him to.
3. A “pre-expansion/post-expansion” adjustment would then need to be done if we expect those numbers to be directly comparable. I wouldn’t even know where to start. I just intuitively know that there’s a problem there, but haven’t really nailed down what to do. I mostly avoided the issue in the last MLD,AAA, etc by distinguishing players as “the best offensive pre-expansion winger”.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
You you ****ing serious? So because I don't own a franchise, I'm supposed to praise them all equally?! What is this, Raptor...kindergarden? Every team is special...every team is good! Let's fingerpaint with emoticons and eat paste.
I have some star stickers; would everyone like one?

seventieslord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 04:17 PM
  #94
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 8,153
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Sturm please at least provide something that tells me Nighbor is better than Francis offensively if you're going to say that. Yes I know Francis, despite being a solid defensive player is not in Nighbor's echelon. But it appears so that Francis is the better player offensively, also compared to his contemporaries he had the tougher competition.
It's really not my job to do simple statistical research about well-known players here. I'll refer you to a couple of very old posts I made about Frank Nighbor back in ATD#11:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=835

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=836

One of the NHA seasons you're missing from Nighbor's resume was when he roflstomped the league. You also seem to have missed the season when he was second in NHL scoring...unless you are using Dreak's consolidated numbers, but if you are doing so, you need to be clear about that, and I will duly ignore them. You are also missing the fact that Nighbor led two Cup champions in postseason scoring.

The most important difference here is that Nighbor was an überdominant defensive player, while Francis was merely a good one. Nighbor's defense was so good that he was the consensus best player in the world when he was playing. When Howie Morenz won his first Hart Trophy in 1928, he said (paraphrase) "I have the trophy, but Frank Nighbor is the greatest player in the world." Nighbor was 35 years old that season, and scored just 13 points. Let that sink in. Francis was a good defensive center, but comparing his defense to Nighbor's is like comparing J.C. Tremblay's offense to Bobby Orr's. They are miles apart overall.

Sturminator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 04:21 PM
  #95
Velociraptor
Registered User
 
Velociraptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Maritimes
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,803
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
2nd lines: Elias - Oates - Hextall SR. vs Lewis - Fedorov - Leach

Your line relies so much on Fedorov offensively it's not even funny.Herbie Lewis is pretty meh offensively.Reggie Leach had a couple of 7th in scoring but I think we can safely say that he is the definition of a one-year wonder as far as elite performances goes.Is one season enough to think he could help Fedorov offensively? Either way , my 2nd line is so explosive offensively that there is simply no way it's not the best here.

Advantage Montréal
Did you know Reggie Leach had 3 top 10's in goal-scoring? He got selected 245 picks after Hextall, so I think I got him at pretty good value. With a guy of that quality on Fedorov's wing, it really takes a load of off Fedorov, the main source for offense on the line. Fedorov is also somewhat like Herbie's real-life centre that he had the most success with, Marty Barry. So I think you are criminally underestimating my second line.

Quote:
The truth is my 2nd line is better offensively than any of your line.
I honestly laughed when I saw this, this is sad. My first line is easily superior to yours offensively, and I don't even know if your second is more superior to mine. Patrik Elias and Herbie Lewis are very similar players, and bring the defensive element to the line, and not much in terms of offense, so we'll put them aside for now. Yes Oates-Hextall is a strong offensive duo that will result in a lot of goals for your team. But why won't you realize that, next to a strong playmaking centre, Reggie Leach is at his best and will score a lot of goals. And before you say "ya theyre so much better than your players" I'd like to point out Bryan Hextall has an alarmingly underwhelming playoff record. I'd be worried if a guy that I was relying on to be my best goalscorer had 8 goals in 37 playoff games... yikes. Fedorov was perhaps the most reputable player that transformed into a whole different player in the post season, and is one of the better players in the playoffs of all time. Reggie Leach also was a very strong playoff performer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
3rd line: Ramsay - Goyette - Provost vs Lambert - Holik - Armstrong

Your 3rd line will be slow as hell , and my line is much better offensively and defensively once again.I don't see any argument possible to sell your 3rd line against mine.

Advantage Montréal
Yep, you have a good third line. But you don't even enter mine into the equation, your short summaries of lines is inept and I think that you should credit my side a little more, even if you know that your line is better. This is a shutdown line that will be hell to play against, my third line is a shutdown line to a lesser extent, and whenever the Roos' receive their desired matchups, Nighbor will be battling it out with Holik. But yes, you're right you hold an advantage here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Coaching: Hitchcock vs Burns

Hitchcock is a good defensive coach and he won the cup with Dallas (+ a nice run with Philadelphia) but Pat Burns proved himself more often than Hitchcock in going far with differant kind of team.He made an immediate impact on 4 clubs , winning the jack adams his 1st year everytime except NJ , where he won the cup his 1st year instead.

This is pretty close but I still have the give the edge to Burns because of his many awards

Advantage Montréal
It's a very close advantage, both coaches run a similar style, probably not worth discussing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Goalie: Parent vs Lumley

Parent was a clutch goaltender who had a tremendous 2 year run , and he is superior to Harry Lumley and should make a big save here and there.

Advantage Australia
A big save here and there? that's like talking about a team who will have 80 shots a game, and the goaltender makes a desperation save once every little while. Parent holds a flattering advantage over Lumley, which to reiterate, is the biggest advantage for either team in any category in this series. He has the capability to steal a game in this series, Parent was absolute money in the playoffs, and was the best goaltender in the world during his insurmountable two-year peak. Lumley did win a cup and was pretty efficient in Detroit's 1950 victory. Percy LeSueur is a better comparison for Lumley than Bernie Parent is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
No.. your 2nd line is not better than the Francis line offensively..

Just because Francis played in Pittsburgh during the Jagr-Lemieux era, doesn't mean that he didn't earn his points. He still had to be good enough to acquire them, and he was not an elite, but a very strong scorer for a very, very long time. The definition of longevity. There really isn't a whole lot to choose from between Oates and Francis, in my mind. Put a gun to my head, I probably say Oates is better, but it isn't by a landslide.

And, factoring in the fact that players during Conacher's era had much shorter careers overall than in Oates' time, I'd say Conacher is a better player offensively than Oates (definitely in peak), and he certainly obliterates Hextall.
Yeah I found that to be the most absurd comment in the thread as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Give me a break ,Francis wouldn't have been able to have as many points and top finishes if he didn't play with Jagr and Lemieux.

4 out of 5 of his top 10 in points finishes happened in Pittburgh.

His 1st , 3rd , 3rd in assist also happened in Pittsburgh.

This is one of the most obvious case of a player being boosted by greater players.

The offense of these line is debatable , but my 2nd line as a better duo of offensive players , both Oates and Hextall are clearly superior than Francis offensively.

How overrated can Francis become? Equal to Oates offensively? Just give me a break I'm already tired.
Francis isn't equal to Oates offensively, but he's really not that far behind. If you're crying bloody murder on Francis only being good offensively in Pittsburgh, please look at his Hartford percentages, and than realize that Oates and Kelly would suffer from the same problem as Francis, and perhaps they aren't as good offensively as you think, EXACT same case as Francis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Ron Francis top 10 finishes

Outside Pittsburgh:
Assist: 4th , 5th , 7th , 10th , 10th , 10th
Points: 9th

In Pittsburgh:
Assist: 1st , 1st , 3rd , 4th , 9th , 9th
Points: 4th , 5th , 5th , 8th

You do realize the bolded are extremely unlikely anywhere else? I could be generous and give him his 3rd in assist.

That would leave: 3rd , 4th , 4th , 5th , 7th ( 6th/7th* , 6th/7th*) , 9th , 9th , 10th , 10th , 10th in assists ( *you could replace the top pittsburgh years by average and give him two 6th or 7th place which is more likely )
Oates: 1st , 1st , 1st , 2nd , 2nd , 3rd , 3rd , 4th , 4th , 5th , 6th , 7th in assists

This isn't even close.


Even at face value:

francis: 1st , 1st , 3rd , 4th , 4th , 5th , 7th , 9th , 9th , 10th , 10th , 10th
Oates: 1st , 1st , 1st , 2nd , 2nd , 3rd , 3rd , 4th , 4th , 5th , 6th , 7th

Oates is still better , but his stats weren't inflated by a specific teammate , he clearly inflated numbers of his teammate , not the other way around , proving Oates had way more impact offensively than Ron Francis.

As for Hextall Sr , he certainly was a more impactful player in his prime than Ron Francis ever was , which is what I'm basing my argument on.If you are a longevity junkie I won't convince you so might as well stop debating if this is the case.

I just don't believe in Francis' offense.
Do you mean to tell me Brett Hull wouldn't have scored all those goals if not for Adam Oates? absolutely not. Hull is a pure goal scorer, and could score goals as long as he had the puck. Sure he made guys like Dmitri Kvartalnov and Steve Leach score a lot of goals, but Oates' totals were usually due to the ability of his linemates, which is the same case as Francis, as you believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think Francis = Oates as overall players with a significant offense edge to Oates and a significant defensive edge to Francis.
I don't know about that, I think a much larger advantage goes to Francis defensively. Oates was not near Francis's defensive level at all, while Francis was yes not as good as Oates offensively, was a lot closer to Oates at offensive than Oates was to Francis defensively.

Velociraptor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 04:27 PM
  #96
Velociraptor
Registered User
 
Velociraptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Maritimes
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,803
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Yeah except that if you say the line of reasoning is that he was behind a stacked defense.. doesn't that automatically make him unlikely to get the all star recognition when he's 3rd in line on his own team?
That's a very fair point, Baun had the unfortunate circumstances of being on a loaded defensive corps. If he spent his career in Chicago or New York, he would've been a solid #2, he just didn't get those chances in Toronto behind Horton, Brewer and Stanley

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
And what is so spectacular about your first line defensively except Ron Francis , who is inferior than Nighbor?
Did I say mine was better? No. I just said that yours really isn't that spectacular, but holds far and away the best defensive player of the six players. Francis is better defensively than both Denneny and Balderis, which would make him second, not a close second. But your first line is really not tremendous defensively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
It's really not my job to do simple statistical research about well-known players here. I'll refer you to a couple of very old posts I made about Frank Nighbor back in ATD#11:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=835

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=836

One of the NHA seasons you're missing from Nighbor's resume was when he roflstomped the league. You also seem to have missed the season when he was second in NHL scoring...unless you are using Dreak's consolidated numbers, but if you are doing so, you need to be clear about that, and I will duly ignore them. You are also missing the fact that Nighbor led two Cup champions in postseason scoring.

The most important difference here is that Nighbor was an überdominant defensive player, while Francis was merely a good one. Nighbor's defense was so good that he was the consensus best player in the world when he was playing. When Howie Morenz won his first Hart Trophy in 1928, he said (paraphrase) "I have the trophy, but Frank Nighbor is the greatest player in the world." Nighbor was 35 years old that season, and scored just 13 points. Let that sink in. Francis was a good defensive center, but comparing his defense to Nighbor's is like comparing J.C. Tremblay's offense to Bobby Orr's. They are miles apart overall.
I'm not trying to make it seem close, I know Nighbor is a top-five defensive player of all time. That's something I will not disturb, I simply said that Francis is a good defensive player for a first line, but no he is not on the same level defensively. What I am trying to prove is that Francis was better offensively.

Velociraptor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 04:27 PM
  #97
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,980
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Did you know Reggie Leach had 3 top 10's in goal-scoring? He got selected 245 picks after Hextall, so I think I got him at pretty good value. With a guy of that quality on Fedorov's wing, it really takes a load of off Fedorov, the main source for offense on the line. Fedorov is also somewhat like Herbie's real-life centre that he had the most success with, Marty Barry. So I think you are criminally underestimating my second line.
You must have missed the part in the exact quote of me where I said eve nthough Reggie leach a couple of 7th in scoring , his resume is largely based on his big year.

A guy of the quality of Leach takes loads off Fedorov? How so? Leach is underwhelming as a 2nd line goal scorer.Hextall had 1st , 1st , 2nd , 5th , 5th in goalscoring as well as 1st and 2nd in pts mainly.

I don't really care what value you had when you picked him , he's there sitting on a line and is not even in the same stratosphere as Hextall offensively.

I don't have anything to say against Fedorov , but Lewis won't provide a lot of offense neither.Elias is the same.My Oates-Hextall duo is clearly enough to say my line destroys yours offensively.

Hextall Sr. did score a hat trick in the finals and scored the championship goals , so while I'm not going to sell him as a money player , he's not a choker either , and he provided what he did best when things counted the most.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 04:34 PM
  #98
Velociraptor
Registered User
 
Velociraptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Maritimes
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,803
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
You must have missed the part in the exact quote of me where I said eve nthough Reggie leach a couple of 7th in scoring , his resume is largely based on his big year.

A guy of the quality of Leach takes loads off Fedorov? How so? Leach is underwhelming as a 2nd line goal scorer.Hextall had 1st , 1st , 2nd , 5th , 5th in goalscoring as well as 1st and 2nd in pts mainly.

I don't really care what value you had when you picked him , he's there sitting on a line and is not even in the same stratosphere as Hextall offensively.

I don't have anything to say against Fedorov , but Lewis won't provide a lot of offense neither.Elias is the same.My Oates-Hextall duo is clearly enough to say my line destroys yours offensively.

Hextall Sr. did score a hat trick in the finals and scored the championship goals , so while I'm not going to sell him as a money player , he's not a choker either , and he provided what he did best when things counted the most.
Leach isn't "sitting" on the line, he's a strong goal scorer who will be at his finest with a play maker like Fedorov.

Yeah that's one occurrence for Hextall, lots of players have "one big game" in the playoffs. That cannot account for an entire career of not being a reputable clutch player. Also, when I talked about Lewis I assume the same will go for Elias in that regard.

Velociraptor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 04:36 PM
  #99
Velociraptor
Registered User
 
Velociraptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Maritimes
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,803
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Give me a break ,Francis wouldn't have been able to have as many points and top finishes if he didn't play with Jagr and Lemieux.

4 out of 5 of his top 10 in points finishes happened in Pittburgh.

His 1st , 3rd , 3rd in assist also happened in Pittsburgh.

This is one of the most obvious case of a player being boosted by greater players.

The offense of these line is debatable , but my 2nd line as a better duo of offensive players , both Oates and Hextall are clearly superior than Francis offensively.

How overrated can Francis become? Equal to Oates offensively? Just give me a break I'm already tired.
I missed this... are you serious? I need to know.

Velociraptor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 04:38 PM
  #100
Velociraptor
Registered User
 
Velociraptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Maritimes
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,803
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Do you honestly think that Kelly would have the legacy that he does if he played on the Rangers instead of the Red Wings, for example? You don't think that playing with Howe, Lindsay, Delvecchio, Ullman, Quackenbush, etc. didn't help his offense out a lot? When he was converted to a forward in Toronto, he really only had 2 good seasons offensively, you know.. granted, he was getting old by then, but still.

But how about Mikita and Hull? I'm sure Mikita facing inferior checkers helped him a lot. Or Esposito and Orr.. sure, Espo proved he could be an elite player without Orr during the Summit Series, but still. There are so many of these examples, it would take forever to discuss them all.

Honestly, the only way that I would subtract points from a player is if he was put into a situation on a team in the ATD that was a huge difference from the situation he was in in the NHL. Unless, like Oates, the player proved that they could maintain their solid play in a variety of situations, playing with a variety of different players, there is no guarantee that you'd be getting the same type of player.

Obviously, getting Francis and Jagr back together in the ATD would be ideal. However, if the GM can assemble something similar (for example, Francis-Bathgate), I don't see any reason to discount a guy like Francis for what, admittedly, were likely inflated point totals. I don't think enough is said about real life chemistry in the ATD, to be honest with you. For example, if I had Esposito, I'd be a bit worried if I didn't have at least one strong corner man and a strong puck moving defenseman. Nearly all of his success in real life came in that sort of situation.. why on earth would you tread through the unknown and do something other than that?

In this case, Ron Francis is playing with Charlie Conacher.. an elite goal scorer. Conacher is arguably as good a goal scorer as Jagr ever was. And, unlike Jagr, Conacher was a man willing to drive to the net and plow through players to get his goals, which only helps to open up space for Francis. Sure, Conacher's playmaking was non-existent, but why does that matter? Francis was never much of a goal scorer anyways. Other than Jagr's ability to rag the puck, I don't know how much his playmaking really benefited Francis, to be quite honest with you. Attention was deflected away from Francis because of it, but Conacher, more or less, does the same. So.. I think it works, and I don't see a reason to really discount Francis' accomplishments all that much in this situation.

Seriously. I don't get why a lot of guys get the benefit of the doubt, but then we have players like Francis who were obviously very good players, but suddenly their accomplishments are a fraud because of the players they played with.
Absolutely. Everything is this post in correct.

And Reen why are you trying to tear down Francis? you're trying to make him seem like he's maybe a justifiable MLD first line centre. I think we've come to an agreement that Oates is slightly better offensively, but in no way at all does he blow him out of the water like the Gretzky you are trying to make Oates out to be.

Velociraptor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:31 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2016 All Rights Reserved.