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Foster Hewitt Divisional Semifinals: Montreal vs. Australia

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Old
04-18-2012, 09:03 PM
  #126
TheDevilMadeMe
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I hate judging playoff performers by their career PPG because many players played a disproportionate number game games outside their primes.

Example - When the Kid Line was together, Busher Jackson slightly outscored Charlie Conacher in the playoffs. But if you look at their career averages, Jackson looks a lot worse due to playing so many playoff games after his prime (some as a defensman).

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04-18-2012, 09:13 PM
  #127
Velociraptor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I hate judging playoff performers by their career PPG because many players played a disproportionate number game games outside their primes.

Example - When the Kid Line was together, Busher Jackson slightly outscored Charlie Conacher in the playoffs. But if you look at their career averages, Jackson looks a lot worse due to playing so many playoff games after his prime (some as a defensman).
Serious question - can you explain if and how it's different for Hextall?

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04-18-2012, 09:32 PM
  #128
BenchBrawl
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Phil Watson - 0.64 PPG in the playoffs
Clint Smith - 0.56 PPG in the playoffs
Cecil Dillon - 0.53 PPG in the playoffs

That's not a bad group to be around, he was just considerably worse than his peers when it mattered most.
When it mattered most was in the finals when he had a shot at the cup , which is where he elevated his game.Now of course that doesn't excuse him for all the other playoffs , but since you negatively nitpick , I see no point in not positively nitpicking myself.

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04-18-2012, 09:35 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Serious question - can you explain if and how it's different for Hextall?
Just look at hockey reference. Hextall's regualar season peak was clearly 1939-40 to 1942-43. 4 straight top 10 finishes in points, four straight postseason all star nods. None of each outside the time frame. Hextall had 5 goals, 5 assists in 21 playoff games in the time frame, which is basically the same as his career average (8 goals, 9 assists in 37 playoff games). Not particularly good but not terrible for the era.

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04-18-2012, 09:38 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Just look at hockey reference. Hextall's regualar season peak was clearly 1939-40 to 1942-43. 4 straight top 10 finishes in points, four straight postseason all star nods. None of each outside the time frame. Hextall had 5 goals, 5 assists in 21 playoff games in the time frame, which is basically the same as his career average (8 goals, 9 assists in 37 playoff games). Not particularly good but not terrible for the era.
That's still unspectacular and really shouldn't give him any leverage when it comes stepping his game up in the postseason.

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04-18-2012, 09:40 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
When it mattered most was in the finals when he had a shot at the cup , which is where he elevated his game.Now of course that doesn't excuse him for all the other playoffs , but since you negatively nitpick , I see no point in not positively nitpicking myself.
Well he won't be very effective in this series if he's only proven to score when it's for the league championship.

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04-18-2012, 09:44 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Well he won't be very effective in this series if he's only proven to score when it's for the league championship.
He proved to score a lot during his career actually , winning 2 goal scoring title , also finishing 2nd and 5th & 5th.I see no reason to completely disregard his regular season accomplishments , especially considering playoff performances aren't a big problem in my line-up.

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04-18-2012, 09:47 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
That's still unspectacular and really shouldn't give him any leverage when it comes stepping his game up in the postseason.
I would like to know in all the debates I've participated since the draft started where I tried to sell Hextall as a guy stepping up his play in the post-season.

You basically accused him of being a poor playoff performer , I basically agreed but mentionned he did played great in the finals , but then TDMM has shown us that he wasn't as bad as expected.You then responded with the quote above like someone actually sold Hextall as a guy stepping up while nobody said such a thing.I don't follow the logic here.

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04-18-2012, 10:00 PM
  #134
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I just think it should be noted by everyone that he was a very lackluster playoff performer.

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04-18-2012, 10:14 PM
  #135
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When in reality apparently Velociraptor, he wasn't. He was an average playoff performer....

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04-18-2012, 10:22 PM
  #136
BenchBrawl
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Complete Top 10 finishes comparison from the 2nd lines:

Montréal:

Assists: 1st ,1st ,1st ,2nd ,2nd ,2nd ,3rd ,3rd ,4th ,4th ,5th ,6th ,7th ,7th ,9th
Goals: 1st ,1st ,2nd ,4th ,5th ,5th ,10th ,10th
Points: 1st ,2nd ,3rd ,3rd ,3rd ,3rd ,6th ,6th ,7th ,7th ,10th ,10th ,10th

Australia:

Assists: 4th ,4th ,9th
Goals: 1st ,3rd ,7th ,7th ,7th
Points: 2nd ,6th ,9th ,9th

Here are the playoff numbers of both lines and the number of games played:

Montréal:

Games:341
Points:292

Australia:

Games:315
Points:268

I think it's pretty crystal clear that my 2nd line is way ahead of Australia's 2nd line.

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04-18-2012, 10:36 PM
  #137
seventieslord
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There is lots to like about Australia's 2nd line too. If you really want to boil it down, there's only one real spot you need to talk about. Oates/Elias = Fedorov/Lewis most likely; the reason Montreal's got a superior line here is because Hextall would be an OK 1st liner, and to put Leach on a 2nd line you have to scrape the bottom of the discount bin.

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04-18-2012, 10:38 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Here are the playoff numbers of both lines and the number of games played:

Montréal:

Games:341
Points:292

Australia:

Games:315
Points:268

I think it's pretty crystal clear that my 2nd line is way ahead of Australia's 2nd line.
That's a pretty useless exercise to use, your team has a total better playoff PPG by a fraction of a percent. In fact, that makes my line look a lot better than you have perceived it. Thanks, Reen.

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04-18-2012, 10:38 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
There is lots to like about Australia's 2nd line too. If you really want to boil it down, there's only one real spot you need to talk about. Oates/Elias = Fedorov/Lewis most likely; the reason Montreal's got a superior line here is because Hextall would be an OK 1st liner, and to put Leach on a 2nd line you have to scrape the bottom of the discount bin.
The chemistry is also superior with the Oates-Hextall duo fitting like a glove.

I don't disagree with you , but in this tight draft , Hextall vs Leach is a massive advantage.

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04-18-2012, 10:39 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
That's a pretty useless exercise to use, your team has a total better playoff PPG by a fraction of a percent. In fact, that makes my line look a lot better than you have perceived it. Thanks, Reen.
way to erase all the top 10 finishes and ignore them.

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04-18-2012, 10:44 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
way to erase all the top 10 finishes and ignore them.
I focused on the part that I thought was generous of you, don't worry, I took those finishes into consideration before I made my final judgment on that second line.

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04-18-2012, 10:55 PM
  #142
TheDevilMadeMe
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When in reality apparently Velociraptor, he wasn't. He was an average playoff performer....
I think Hextall was a little subpar in the playoffs. He played in the early 40s, and by then the playoffs weren't as low scoring as in the 30s I don't think. But hes far from all-time team choke I think

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04-18-2012, 10:57 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
The chemistry is also superior with the Oates-Hextall duo fitting like a glove.

I don't disagree with you , but in this tight draft , Hextall vs Leach is a massive advantage.
No it isn't. Ted Lindsay vs. Toe Blake would be a massive advantage. The difference between Hextall and Leach is distinct, but the gap is bridged slightly by Leach's superior playoff record (and in my mind, leading the playoffs in goals and points once is far, far better than anything Hextall did in the playoffs). Hextall wasn't a poor playoff performer, but Leach was simply better. The difference between the two is distinct, but I don't think it's big enough to be the difference maker in this series, and it certainly isn't "massive".

You want to know where someone has a massive advantage here? Parent vs. Lumley.. that's what I would call a "massive advantage".

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04-18-2012, 11:02 PM
  #144
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I think Hextall was a little subpar in the playoffs. He played in the early 40s, and by then the playoffs weren't as low scoring as in the 30s I don't think. But hes far from all-time team choke I think
Yep that's entirely fair.

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04-19-2012, 02:25 AM
  #145
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You want to know where someone has a massive advantage here? Parent vs. Lumley.. that's what I would call a "massive advantage".
Nighbor vs. Francis is the other real mismatch in the series. Well, that and the gap between the third lines.

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04-19-2012, 07:32 AM
  #146
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Nighbor vs. Francis is the other real mismatch in the series. Well, that and the gap between the third lines.
Agree.

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04-19-2012, 09:23 AM
  #147
Velociraptor
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While I do agree with what Sturm said, I don't think either of those advantages come close to the advantage of Parent over Lumley.

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04-19-2012, 07:41 PM
  #148
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WHY AUSTRALIA SHOULD WIN THIS SERIES

- Goaltending: The edge for Australia in nets is the biggest advantage in the series by a considerable margin. Bernie Parent is a proven money goaltender, and is a very strong figure in the series, he will eliminate a lot of Canadiens scoring chances. I think he has the capability to steal a game in this series, especially where it is going to be a very defensive series. I think this is going to come down to goaltending due to the fact that both teams play very defensive styles of hockey, which will more than likely result in a low-scoring series. Lumley IMO is the weakest starting goaltender in the entire draft, and I think it is a huge flaw on the Canadiens.
- The Roos' also possess better defensive depth, and the weaker bottom-four defensemen on the Canadiens will be exploited, and furthermore giving the Mighty Roos' plenty of chances to score on the subpar netminder, Harry Lumley.
- They have a very balanced, tight-checking group of forwards that will contend with the Canadiens group of strong defensive forwards. Ultimately the Roos' will prevail because of the glaring weaknesses of the Canadiens blueline after the first pairing.
- The best player in the series, multi-essential, Denis Potvin will be a key factor in this series.
- A team built for the playoffs, all of Australias' key players were known to elevate or maintain their play in the post-season, that resulted in an collective 47 Stanley Cups, and a total of 71 Finals appearances.
- Montreal's holes in defense and goaltending are too hard to ignore, and the Roos' forwards will occasionally have the chance to run wild on an inferior group of blueliners.
- Good chemistry throughout the team, all four lines able to play responsible defensive hockey, all while being offensive threats, namely the top-six.

Thanks for the debate, Reen. Best of luck to you, I hope everyone who reads this thread considers the above. I am essentially away from my computer all weekend, I don't know when Voting Day is, but I'll make every effort to try and be there for that. In the meantime, I will try and answer any questions fellow managers may have for me.

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04-20-2012, 05:02 AM
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
- Goaltending: The edge for Australia in nets is the biggest advantage in the series by a considerable margin.
No, it's really not. Nighbor vs. Francis is at least as big a mismatch.

I don't get your criticism of Monteal's bottom-4 defense. Beck-Boyle have been discussed in detail, and I think their value is clear by now. Your persistent criticism of these two seems to ignore the actual facts that have been presented about them. They're just as good as Mohns-Carlyle, and better from a chemistry perspective. Macoun-Stackhouse is nothing too exciting on a bottom pairing, but it's not bad, either. Pretty average ES bottom pairing from the looks of it, with a good skills balance. Montreal's bottom four is roughly average by the standards of this ATD. I don't see how they're especially vulnerable.

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04-20-2012, 08:00 AM
  #150
Velociraptor
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No, it's really not. Nighbor vs. Francis is at least as big a mismatch
How? Francis is at least equal offensively, but he isn't one dimensional. Yes, Nighbor is one of the best defensive players of all time, but I think it's redundant to ignore Francis had defensive ability just because his superior was much better at it. That gap is certainly not as big as the goaltending, you make it seem Francis was like Henrik Sedin, he's a hell of a lot better than him defensively, I think six Top-6's in Selke voting is at least enough to call him a reputable defensive player. I do realize Nighbor is better, but he's really not that much better than Francis. Not to the point where it's overly close, but yet again my players are being discredited.

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