HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Fantasy Hockey Talk > All Time Draft
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
All Time Draft Fantasy league where players of the past and present meet.

Bob Cole Divisional Semifinals: Chicago vs. Philadelphia

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-23-2012, 01:24 PM
  #76
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,478
vCash: 500
I remember whoever drafted Hay in the past making a big deal about some vague quote that may or may not have been referring to defensive ability.

I considered Hay last time but decided he wasn't good enough defensively for a left wing lock team

Edit: I remember it being in a Dreakmur bio but he just copied the argument from someone else IIRC

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 02:30 PM
  #77
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,717
vCash: 10000
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
which rankings make no sense, aside from apparently Hay and Moore?

If you're not seeing anything in Hay's current bio, check a couple of his older ones; I know this information has been presented before. I needed a LW on my 2nd line who wasn't one-dimensional last year, at one point I wanted Hay for his defensive ability and had to settle on Adams instead.
There is no bio of him from last year, and Dreakmur's bio from 2010 is a shorter version of the one already linked in the first post. I don't see a bio from ATD #12, and there's nothing in VI's post from ATD #11. I don't see any other bios or quotes about him being a good defensive player. In ATD 12 and the 2010 ATD, people were saying he was a good pick because it was discovered that he had some defensive ability. But I can't find any of those quotes, or a bio that contains them. If those quotes existed, why weren't they included in any bios of him?

I believe I may have found the source of this misconception about George Hay. VI and Hockey Outsider. Here are two posts from them from ATD #10 and ATD #9.

HO:

Quote:
I should mention that George Hay is both an excellent scorer and a complete, two-way player. He stands out as the best player on the third line – he clearly tops McKenney’s offense and was praised for his defensive play. Offensively, Hay finished in the top five in scoring in the WCHL in 1922, 1923, 1924 and 1926. As soon as he transitioned to the NHL, he finished in the top ten in assists three consecutive seasons and peaked at 3rd in scoring 1928 (behind only the Morenz/Joliat duo, and ahead of Boucher, Stewart, Cook, etc). This clearly tops the offensive ability of Prentice (who cracked the top ten in scoring just once despite playing most of his career on Bathgate’s wing), Ellis, and McKenney (who had fewer years as a top scorer, and never cracked the top five).

Coach Jack Adams described him as a player who “could do everything” and was “always in condition, always on the job, always willing to play any position”. Defensively, Hay was known for “combining speed and poise, aggressiveness and finesse, with unsurpassed mechanical ability” and was described as an “exceptional stickhandler”. In terms of accolades, Hay was named to the WCHL first all-star team four times and was Hart finalist in 1928.
To me, that looks like HO misconstruing Jack Adams' overly-lavish praise of Hay for defensive ability. He says Hay was praised for his defensive play, but provides no actual proof or quotes for any of it. Where could he have gotten this opinion from? Here's my only answer:

VI:

Quote:
Here are two two-way HHOFers to play alongside Tony Leswick on a defensively responsible line of all-time greats:

George Hay
And then a bio with the same quotes that have been recycled through every Hay bio since the ATD began. If actual quotes from real sources praising his defensive play exist on this forum, I couldn't find them.

Edit: And with TDMM saying that he got it from an argument by someone else, this almost assuredly means that the source was from these two fabricated quotes that Hay was a two-way player.

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 02:32 PM
  #78
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,101
vCash: 500
....OK, so if I swap Hay and Moore for you, then what?

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 02:38 PM
  #79
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,478
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
There is no bio of him from last year, and Dreakmur's bio from 2010 is a shorter version of the one already linked in the first post. I don't see a bio from ATD #12, and there's nothing in VI's post from ATD #11. I don't see any other bios or quotes about him being a good defensive player. In ATD 12 and the 2010 ATD, people were saying he was a good pick because it was discovered that he had some defensive ability. But I can't find any of those quotes, or a bio that contains them. If those quotes existed, why weren't they included in any bios of him?

I believe I may have found the source of this misconception about George Hay. VI and Hockey Outsider. Here are two posts from them from ATD #10 and ATD #9.

HO:



To me, that looks like HO misconstruing Jack Adams' overly-lavish praise of Hay for defensive ability. He says Hay was praised for his defensive play, but provides no actual proof or quotes for any of it. Where could he have gotten this opinion from? Here's my only answer:

VI:



And then a bio with the same quotes that have been recycled through every Hay bio since the ATD began. If actual quotes from real sources praising his defensive play exist on this forum, I couldn't find them.

Edit: And with TDMM saying that he got it from an argument by someone else, this almost assuredly means that the source was from these two fabricated quotes that Hay was a two-way player.
As far as I know, this is the main "evidence" of Hay's defensive play.

I doubt Jack Adams would praise Hay so much if he was a floater like Babe Dye, but I don't see him as anything special defensively based on the available evidence

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 02:47 PM
  #80
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,717
vCash: 10000
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
I'd prefer to see some actual evidence about Reg Noble's abilities as a forward to call him the second best defensive player in the entire series. While there is sometimes a correlation between a forward being a good two-way player who switches to defense and performs well(see Red Kelly), it certainly doesn't have to be the case. I haven't seen anything calling guys like Goodfellow, Eddie Gerard, or Doug Mohns good two-way players as forwards, and they're top 4 defensemen in this draft. I'm not convinced. While sometimes it's true, there are plenty of examples where it's not. On your list, once you get past Nieuwendyk, I'm convinced those guys are all basically non-factors in terms of defensive play, and I don't think trying to rank them is worth it. There's nothing to base it on besides speculation. I think Hay belongs in this group.

I think Primeau and Fleming should both easily be higher than Reg Noble, who belongs towards the bottom of players that actually have a defensive reputation. Bump Noble way down the list, get Hay off of it, and move up Fleming, Moore, and Primeau. I'd also probably knock down Morenz and Stanfield a few spots.

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 02:52 PM
  #81
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,478
vCash: 500
IMO, Ken Mosdell is easily the second best defensive forward in the series.

I'm also not sure what makes Howie Morenz so much better defensively than Dickie Moore or Gordie Howe - all were primarily focused on scoring and all were dedicated backcheckers

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 02:56 PM
  #82
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,241
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
You missed George Hay, that would make it 8-8. Here is how I would rank the 24 starting forwards in this series defensively if I had to:

Pavelich
Noble

Graves
Morenz
Mosdell
Linden
Primeau
Stanfield
Fleming
Hay
MacGregor
Howe
Moore
McKenzie
Fredrickson
Nieuwendyk
Weight
Cook
Wharram
Kariya
Martinec
Hyland
Dye
Smith

with four of the top 5 defensive forwards in the series I would have to say that there is more two-way ability in Chicago's lineup of forwards. But you are mostly right in that if you draw an imaginary line after Nieuwendyk, you both have 8 forwards above that line.

I agree that both Hay and Stanfield should be moved down some. I think there is still something valuable being shown when looking at seventies' list here, even if you make a few of the swaps being discussed...

Chicago has more of the top end defensive forwards in this series, and those players are put together in a way that can be used effectively...The top 4 players for Chicago on that list form the LW-C combos on Chicago's 1st and 3rd lines.

Graves is Philly's best defensive player, but he isn't getting much help from his linemates, and is not at the level where he can "do it on his own." Moore-Primeau is a good defensive combo for Philly, but they aren't better than Pavelich-Mosdell or Noble-Morenz. So WHEN they can get the matchup (which I already said we are planning to avoid) Philly can send the Primeau line out against one of our scoring lines. Chicago has two high powered scoring lines and a dangerous 4th line though. Who's going to stop the rest of them?

Hawkey Town 18 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 02:57 PM
  #83
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,241
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
IMO, Ken Mosdell is easily the second best defensive forward in the series.

I'm also not sure what makes Howie Morenz so much better defensively than Dickie Moore or Gordie Howe - all were primarily focused on scoring and all were dedicated backcheckers
I also thought Mosdell should be ahead of Morenz, but I'd still put him over Moore and Howe...prob right next to Primeau

Hawkey Town 18 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 02:59 PM
  #84
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,717
vCash: 10000
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
We've got the LW-C axis of Moore-Primeau, Graves-Stanfield, and Fleming-Linden to do the defensive work if need be. We're not worried about our first line because we've got Nieuwendyk and Howe defensively, and our we don't believe our first line is going to be spending a lot of time in the defensive zone because it's a very puck possession-oriented line. Kariya likes to set up in the offensive zone and do this work, while Howe likes to carry the puck. Both love to play quick transition hockey. These guys dominate by possessing the puck.

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 03:01 PM
  #85
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,101
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I'd prefer to see some actual evidence about Reg Noble's abilities as a forward to call him the second best defensive player in the entire series. While there is sometimes a correlation between a forward being a good two-way player who switches to defense and performs well(see Red Kelly), it certainly doesn't have to be the case.
I know it’s out there; I have seen it many times myself, but this is not my series or my player and I’m quite liking not having to run to my library to back up something I say because I have something riding on it. 

Quote:
On your list, once you get past Nieuwendyk, I'm convinced those guys are all basically non-factors in terms of defensive play, and I don't think trying to rank them is worth it. There's nothing to base it on besides speculation. I think Hay belongs in this group.
Hay definitely belongs above that group. That one passage alone is more than we have on the bottom group combined (unless TDMM has something on Martinec?) – I don’t see a separation between Weight and Nieuwendyk. I was watching for their whole careers, and they were usually both seen as ‘decent’ but not guys who would ever get a selke vote. Nieuwendyk suddenly got better defensively once he retired, though.

Quote:
I think Primeau and Fleming should both easily be higher than Reg Noble, who belongs towards the bottom of players that actually have a defensive reputation. Bump Noble way down the list, get Hay off of it, and move up Fleming, Moore, and Primeau. I'd also probably knock down Morenz and Stanfield a few spots.
Primeau’s defensive reputation is based on a pretty short time in Philly; he was nothing special aside from that. Fleming’s defensive game is a bit of a house of cards at this point; it appears the sources you’ve chosen are assuming that since he wasn’t a scorer himself, that he must have checked the other team’s scorers, and you’re assuming that if he did it, he must have been particularly good at it.

After going over your Moore bio, I would move him down this list, if anything.

I read a great passage on Morenz from a book about how he caught up to a guy who was a whole zone ahead of him, stripped him of the puck and took off with it. Relative to his era, Morenz might be the fastest player of all-time. His speed was a huge advantage for him both offensively and defensively.

Howe and Moore weren’t shutdown players or listed among the best defensive players of their time, but the impression I get is that Morenz was on that list for his time.

I agree with TDMM that there’s a case for Mosdell to be the 2nd best defensive forward in this series.. but that doesn’t help your claim. Also I was pretty generous about Graves thanks to his selke record that kind of came out of nowhere for a lot of us. The fact that no one saw him as a defensive player before this was pointed out, for such a recent player, is evidence that maybe he really wasn’t a top-10 defensive forward, more of a scorer who backchecked.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 03:11 PM
  #86
arrbez
bad chi
 
arrbez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,610
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to arrbez
Hot damn this is a tough series to call. I'm voting for someone in 7...whenever I decide who that someone is.

Both great teams, good on ya boys.

arrbez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 03:17 PM
  #87
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,478
vCash: 500
•Martinec was a big time puck possession player by all accounts (probably his main advantage over Novy and Hlinka) and was often part of CSSR's penalty kill, though that might just be because he was a SHG threat
•wrong Primeau, lol
•I got the impression that Morenz wasn't even the best defensive center on his team; Lepine was. Morenz was probably one of the best backcheckers of his era; but doesn't seem to have been a noteworthy hook checker

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 03:18 PM
  #88
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,857
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Hot damn this is a tough series to call. I'm voting for someone in 7...whenever I decide who that someone is.

Both great teams, good on ya boys.
I had this one going 6 or 7 too, I can't remember which.. my toughest one to decide was Hartford vs Lada.

BraveCanadian is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 03:34 PM
  #89
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,101
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
•Martinec was a big time puck possession player by all accounts (probably his main advantage over Novy and Hlinka) and was often part of CSSR's penalty kill, though that might just be because he was a SHG threat
•wrong Primeau, lol
•I got the impression that Morenz wasn't even the best defensive center on his team; Lepine was. Morenz was probably one of the best backcheckers of his era; but doesn't seem to have been a noteworthy hook checker
lol... I honestly did know that, that was reflected in my initial ranking, then I somehow forgot when it came time to actually defend the list. I could see Morenz and Primeau one spot apart based on what I have read about them. I know Morenz wasn't the best defensive center on his own team but that doesn't make him less great.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 04:00 PM
  #90
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,717
vCash: 10000
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
You would move Moore down the list after two sources called him one of the best two-way wingers in the history of the NHL, one said he would have won Selke trophies if they existed at his time, "played rugged and smart defense", "an outstanding all around player", and another source said he allowed just three goals for wingers opposite him all season?

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 04:12 PM
  #91
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,101
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
You would move Moore down the list after two sources called him one of the best two-way wingers in the history of the NHL, one said he would have won Selke trophies if they existed at his time, "played rugged and smart defense", "an outstanding all around player", and another source said he allowed just three goals for wingers opposite him all season?
The THN quote is a complete toss-off. a couple sources that call him "all around" and "two way" go on to talk about his determination and intensity, it looks more like equating toughness to defense like some people do. The quote about the 3 goals allowed all season is probably the most intriguing of all, but I have no idea how we would go about verifying it. If it were true it would be absolutely unprecedented in all of hockey history though.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 04:17 PM
  #92
Velociraptor
Registered User
 
Velociraptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Maritimes
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,670
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Hot damn this is a tough series to call. I'm voting for someone in 7...whenever I decide who that someone is.

Both great teams, good on ya boys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I had this one going 6 or 7 too, I can't remember which.. my toughest one to decide was Hartford vs Lada.
I also found these two the toughest series' to judge, I have both going 7 games.

Velociraptor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 04:27 PM
  #93
Rob Scuderi
Registered User
 
Rob Scuderi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 2,696
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
lol... I honestly did know that, that was reflected in my initial ranking, then I somehow forgot when it came time to actually defend the list...
If it makes you feel better, you had me seriously wondering for a second if he played for the Philadelphia Quakers

Rob Scuderi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 04:34 PM
  #94
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,101
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
If it makes you feel better, you had me seriously wondering for a second if he played for the Philadelphia Quakers


it does, thank you.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 09:21 AM
  #95
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,101
vCash: 500
In 6 games, your winner is Philadelphia.

Well done, Billy. Great job getting this far, Hawkey Town.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 09:43 AM
  #96
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,241
vCash: 500
Good Series Billy, you you put together a real good team! Best of luck the rest of the way!

Hawkey Town 18 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 09:49 AM
  #97
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,717
vCash: 10000
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
I was quite nervous for this series. Thanks for a good series and discussion.

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:27 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.