HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Opinions needed please!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-05-2004, 09:34 PM
  #1
Ryan_Habs_16
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 148
vCash: 500
Opinions needed please!

Why do we have so much trouble drafting players in the first round, and I am not posting this because of Chipchura, I am sure he will rebound but still, our 1st round woes go way beyond the last 10 years, more like 20 or so. I was only born in 84 so I have not seen many of these players but look at our track record. I looked on hockeydb for my reference and found that the only ones worth mentioning were Petr Svoboda(solid defenseman), Shayne Corson(solid carear with habs but not all games were played with habs), Andrew Cassels (played only a few games with habs before enjoying success elsewhere), Saku Koivu(don't need to say anything, we all know who he is) Stevenson and Ward may be good role players but we had hoped for more. Vallis, Bilodeau, Higgins, Chouinard, Brown, Ryan, Wilkie, Ingman Charron, Jose Carbonneau, and Heroux were for the most part busts to say the least.

Hossa, Hainsey, and Perezhogin could easily fall in the bust list, while Komisarek seems ready and Higgins, Kostitsyn, and Chipchura needs lots of improvement.

So why is our draft record in the 1st round so poor? In the last twenty years, Koivu stands out and he was in 93'. I know we have done well drafting overall in later round but why can't we find a player in the 1st round to help make an impact?

Ryan_Habs_16 is offline  
Old
12-05-2004, 09:36 PM
  #2
Mooch
Registered User
 
Mooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: NC/Toronto/Florida
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,960
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Mooch
Bad management, scouts, etc......

Its changed now, but even thats not for sure until we see a few first rounders live up to the hype.

Mooch is offline  
Old
12-05-2004, 09:38 PM
  #3
saskhab
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Saskatoon
Posts: 994
vCash: 500
Because the organization was sick from top to bottom from the early 90s to about 2000. It's healthier now. And Perezhogin won't bust. Hossa, I've come to regard that he will likely be a good NHL scorer, but VERY streaky. Hainsey... ugh. Hopefully when he hits the N he'll try harder, but I dobut it.

saskhab is offline  
Old
12-05-2004, 09:42 PM
  #4
Mooch
Registered User
 
Mooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: NC/Toronto/Florida
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,960
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Mooch
Quote:
Originally Posted by saskhab
Because the organization was sick from top to bottom from the early 90s to about 2000. It's healthier now. And Perezhogin won't bust. Hossa, I've come to regard that he will likely be a good NHL scorer, but VERY streaky. Hainsey... ugh. Hopefully when he hits the N he'll try harder, but I dobut it.
Perezhogan CAN still bust. Hes never seen any nhl minutes, so how can we be so sure he wont bust?

Mooch is offline  
Old
12-05-2004, 10:19 PM
  #5
Brisson11
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: On the rink
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,264
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Brisson11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooch
Perezhogan CAN still bust. Hes never seen any nhl minutes, so how can we be so sure he wont bust?
I don't think we will go wrong with him, he has that certain skill that I just can't see failing in the NHL. I can very well be wrong but I have a feeling...

Brisson11 is offline  
Old
12-05-2004, 10:24 PM
  #6
Mooch
Registered User
 
Mooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: NC/Toronto/Florida
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,960
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Mooch
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisson11
I don't think we will go wrong with him, he has that certain skill that I just can't see failing in the NHL. I can very well be wrong but I have a feeling...
Dont get me wrong, i also think hes gona be a nhl'er one day. But to say he "Wont" bust is a bit off base. I mean, theres been players projected to be much better than Perezhogan who have busted. I dont think i have to name any, im sure you know plenty. Plus, Perezhogan has also gone through quite the incident with the stick swinging incident, which can still effect his career harshly.

Anyways, ive said to much........

Mooch is offline  
Old
12-05-2004, 10:36 PM
  #7
Brisson11
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: On the rink
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,264
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Brisson11
Yes I understand what you meant now. Anything is possible you got that right. Let's hope he has a healthy career!

Brisson11 is offline  
Old
12-05-2004, 10:38 PM
  #8
saskhab
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Saskatoon
Posts: 994
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooch
Dont get me wrong, i also think hes gona be a nhl'er one day. But to say he "Wont" bust is a bit off base. I mean, theres been players projected to be much better than Perezhogan who have busted. I dont think i have to name any, im sure you know plenty. Plus, Perezhogan has also gone through quite the incident with the stick swinging incident, which can still effect his career harshly.

Anyways, ive said to much........
Well, of course he CAN bust. But I see no reason to suggest he is more likely to now than at any time since he was drafted.

saskhab is offline  
Old
12-05-2004, 10:46 PM
  #9
goalchenyuk
Registered User
 
goalchenyuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: montreal
Country: Vatican City State
Posts: 8,388
vCash: 500
when you look at the team first choices , yes it's not great .But if you look at the ''all rounds ''it is good .I remember when a reporter was talking about draft choice few years ago and said that if the CH were having big trouble to have a good first choice , it was the team that was leading for the average of draftees that were playing in the NHL.

i don't think that we can already talk about most of our late choices , since they are still young.

also , i would be curious to know how much of the first choices of each teams are playing in the nhl.I am sure that we are far from the best teams but may be we would be surprise to know that there a lot of team that are close to our average...

goalchenyuk is online now  
Old
12-05-2004, 10:52 PM
  #10
Mooch
Registered User
 
Mooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: NC/Toronto/Florida
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,960
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Mooch
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark0v
when you look at the team first choices , yes it's not great .But if you look at the ''all rounds ''it is good .I remember when a reporter was talking about draft choice few years ago and said that if the CH were having big trouble to have a good first choice , it was the team that was leading for the average of draftees that were playing in the NHL.

i don't think that we can already talk about most of our late choices , since they are still young.

also , i would be curious to know how much of the first choices of each teams are playing in the nhl.I am sure that we are far from the best teams but may be we would be surprise to know that there a lot of team that are close to our average...

Ya thats true. Ribs was a second round pick, Ryder a 7th, Zednik a 9th (although not drafted by us), but these three are part of our core. Pretty cool actually.

Mooch is offline  
Old
12-06-2004, 09:35 AM
  #11
bazz
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Country: Bermuda
Posts: 164
vCash: 500
It could have something to do with coaching and training after they have been drafted. Maybe the situation in Hamilton needs to be looked at. Maybe getting some players from Dallas will help give the draft picks some help.
It just seems as if they can't make that extra step to the NHL. Hossa and Hainsey were drafted in 2000, 4 years later and they still aren't on the team. I think something needs to be done. They need to train harder and be more competetive in order to make the NHL. That leads to Hamilton and what can be done in the coaching and training staff to allow this.
Even with Komisarek. He's good, but still lacks confidence I find. Maybe due to the fact that he doesn't have much NHL experience, or because he wasn't trained as hard before getting to the NHL.

bazz is offline  
Old
12-06-2004, 11:26 AM
  #12
Marc the Habs Fan
Moderator
Cakes!
 
Marc the Habs Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Longueuil
Country: Canada
Posts: 54,565
vCash: 473
What's with all this panic about our recent first rounders?

Chipchura was having a GREAT season and showed he does have offensive talent. I was totally against this pick and even I can't say anything negative about him at this point in time. But now that he's injured people are getting worried? His injury will not end his career folks, lots of pro athletes have had it and have come back from it. The Chipchura pick is looking like a good one.

Yes, Kostitsyn's struggled in the AHL, did anyone really expect him to go down there and light it up right from the start? There were so many things the kid had to learn/adapt to, no wonder he struggled. He's been getting a bit more ice time recently and has improved defensively according to the Dogs announcers, so he should have a decent 2nd half. If he ends up with 35-40 points, I'd be very satisfied with his season. He's only 19, don't forget that.

Higgins has had an unreal number of prime scoring chances so far this season and just seems to be snake-bitten. But the good news is he's working hard and getting those chances, eventually they will start going in. He's too good a player to not even record 0.5 PPG at the AHL level, hopefully his goal on Saturday opens the floodgates.

How anyone can be concerned over Perezhogin's play is beyond me. The kid was great in the 2nd half last year in the AHL, was having a great playoff before the incident and has been doing very well on the 3rd line (11 pts in 17 games, in a RSL boosted with NHLers) for Omsk. We just gotta hope there won't be any legal trouble over the incident, because Perezhogin is a gem.

Komisarek's injury sucks, but at least they got the surgery done and hopefully the problem is fixed once and for all. His progress late last season and in the playoffs was very nice to see, no doubt with a full time job whenever the NHL starts up he should continue to improve.

Hainsey on the other hand...let's hope that once the NHL starts up, being around veterans will help him mature into a better defensive d-man and turn on the lightbulb. Hossa's inconsistency is frustrating, but the tools are there and he may be a late bloomer.

In the big picture, it hasn't been a great season for most of them, but its only been 20-25 games in most cases. Lots of hockey left to play. I doubt the Habs brass is in full blow panic mode over their development.

Marc the Habs Fan is online now  
Old
12-06-2004, 12:04 PM
  #13
RLC
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 622
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan
What's with all this panic about our recent first rounders?

Chipchura was having a GREAT season and showed he does have offensive talent. I was totally against this pick and even I can't say anything negative about him at this point in time. But now that he's injured people are getting worried? His injury will not end his career folks, lots of pro athletes have had it and have come back from it. The Chipchura pick is looking like a good one.

Yes, Kostitsyn's struggled in the AHL, did anyone really expect him to go down there and light it up right from the start? There were so many things the kid had to learn/adapt to, no wonder he struggled. He's been getting a bit more ice time recently and has improved defensively according to the Dogs announcers, so he should have a decent 2nd half. If he ends up with 35-40 points, I'd be very satisfied with his season. He's only 19, don't forget that.

Higgins has had an unreal number of prime scoring chances so far this season and just seems to be snake-bitten. But the good news is he's working hard and getting those chances, eventually they will start going in. He's too good a player to not even record 0.5 PPG at the AHL level, hopefully his goal on Saturday opens the floodgates.

How anyone can be concerned over Perezhogin's play is beyond me. The kid was great in the 2nd half last year in the AHL, was having a great playoff before the incident and has been doing very well on the 3rd line (11 pts in 17 games, in a RSL boosted with NHLers) for Omsk. We just gotta hope there won't be any legal trouble over the incident, because Perezhogin is a gem.

Komisarek's injury sucks, but at least they got the surgery done and hopefully the problem is fixed once and for all. His progress late last season and in the playoffs was very nice to see, no doubt with a full time job whenever the NHL starts up he should continue to improve.

Hainsey on the other hand...let's hope that once the NHL starts up, being around veterans will help him mature into a better defensive d-man and turn on the lightbulb. Hossa's inconsistency is frustrating, but the tools are there and he may be a late bloomer.

In the big picture, it hasn't been a great season for most of them, but its only been 20-25 games in most cases. Lots of hockey left to play. I doubt the Habs brass is in full blow panic mode over their development.
I agree with everything you said. It's way to early to condem or confirm how good a player will be. The habs did a great job drafting in the past 3-4 years. Thier was a good reason to draft each player. The kids just need to mature and get confidance in thier own abilities. They are in the AHL to learn and not to light it up every minute of the game. These same kids that are strugling with the Jarvis system right now will dominate the ice next year. Everyone want's them to produce "right now" but please just chill out. Thier is nothing wrong with these players that time wont mend. Time after time a player only realy shows his true worth from age 22 and going forward. Before that it's the learning curve. Oh yes we can guess when he is young, but it's a guess. Draft a player with talent, then teach him right through the farm system, then give him a taste to the NHL for 30 games to see if what you taught him realy took hold. If all goes well, he will make the NHL team and produce. The only thing that is a bad signal in the farm system is if a player wont learn, wont take direction, wont work hard and is too selfish. Does anyone think any of the Habs prospects are one of these type of players?
If not then just chill out.

RLC is offline  
Old
12-06-2004, 01:11 PM
  #14
bopeep
Registered User
 
bopeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: habcouver
Posts: 613
vCash: 500
I think it's quite clear where the doom and gloom is coming from: Chip/injured Kosty/low production Higgins/low production Perez/the incident Komi/injured Hainsey/sucks. But being as fickle as I am, all it takes is another prospect to have a multipoint game and all will be well in the world

bopeep is offline  
Old
12-06-2004, 03:46 PM
  #15
Ryan_Habs_16
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 148
vCash: 500
I'm not all for point production, I would have just liked to see a few more of our prospects pan out. Sure Hossa and Hainsey could work out, but to me, they haven't progressed enough. I just find it funny that lots of people on this board think Higgins, Kostitsyn, Chipchura, Komisarek, Hainsey, Perezhogin, and Hossa will all be apart of our near future. Not all, but some will be good with the habs, if not any other team!

Ryan_Habs_16 is offline  
Old
12-06-2004, 04:44 PM
  #16
Form and Substance
Registered User
 
Form and Substance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,673
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bopeep
I think it's quite clear where the doom and gloom is coming from: Chip/injured Kosty/low production Higgins/low production Perez/the incident Komi/injured Hainsey/sucks. But being as fickle as I am, all it takes is another prospect to have a multipoint game and all will be well in the world
Or to at least score a point.

Form and Substance is offline  
Old
12-06-2004, 05:10 PM
  #17
bopeep
Registered User
 
bopeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: habcouver
Posts: 613
vCash: 500
Mark Flood 23-1-17-18

bopeep is offline  
Old
12-06-2004, 06:29 PM
  #18
Marc the Habs Fan
Moderator
Cakes!
 
Marc the Habs Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Longueuil
Country: Canada
Posts: 54,565
vCash: 473
I understand what some of you are saying, but don't forget a few things:

- If there was a season this year, there's pretty much no doubt Hainsey would be in the top 7 in Montreal and Hossa would have probably earned a spot up front. The waiver rules would have played a part in them making it, though. They would have been considered ''graduated'' from the farm system.

- Komisarek would have been in the top 6 on D

- There's a very good chance Higgins would have made the team and if Perezhogin hadn't been suspended, he would have had a great chance at making it as well. For 2 kids who are 21 years old, that's pretty good.

- Chip and Kosty are still in their teens, so they wouldn't have made it this season obviously and there's still plenty of time for them to develop.

Haven't we learned our lesson as Habs fans with the late emergence of prospects like Ribeiro, Ryder, Ward, Markov, Garon, etc over the last 2 seasons? most of them who were written off? Some prospects only emerge at around age 23-24-25. Hopefully Hainsey and Hossa will follow that path once the NHL starts up. There's a pretty good chance the other highly touted first rounders will be regulars on our team before the 23-24 age, considering their development at this point.

Marc the Habs Fan is online now  
Old
12-06-2004, 06:51 PM
  #19
NWT Habs Fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Edmonton, AB
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,046
vCash: 500
I am with Marc on this subject entirely...two great posts BTW!!

Let's look year by year:

2000 with the 13th and 16th pick, we ended up with Hainsey and Hossa. That year was a stud year with the top picks and then the talent and "sure thing" really drops off. In hindsight, would I rather have say Volchenkov and Frolov instead of our duo? Perhaps, but both Hainsey and Hossa are young and I am not convinced that they are official busts yet. Hossa is playing good hockey in the SEL, and likely will get worked into a top spot once hockey resumes. Sure, Hainsey isn't convincing everybody game after game in the AHL, but he is being asked to do it all on a fairly weak Hamilton D. If he gets paired with one of Montreal's steadier stay-at-homers, he will learn a different style than he is seeing in Hamilton these days. I just think that his hockey sense and willingness to use his big body are still below where they need to be.

2001 and the 7th pick brought us Komo. Hard not to like a big, physical defenceman like Komo. At the time, I had my eye on Ruutu or Hemsky if we were going forward, but like Komo with our pick to solidify a fairly weak prospect depth of big, solid defencemen. Komo has been brought in slowly, but has finally started to impress both Gainey and Julien to the point that he was reason enough for management not to play Q in the playoffs and to not resign Q in the off-season. As for this injury, I am glad he is getting top notch medical help to get it fixed without missing any key NHL ice time. He will be back at 100% and raring do go. Later on that round scooping Perezhogin was a great move. On draft day, the TSN analysts did feel he was more of a project than a guy like Hemsky who had just been picked, but they liked his raw skill. His progress has been great: his WJC performances were very solid, he had a great second half in his rookie AHL season, and he is doing well again in the RSL. As others have mentioned, the big question mark is the legal issue and how he gets through that adversity.

2002 and the 14th pick saw us go the NCAA for the third straight year and net Chris Higgins. Pretty hard not to like this pick, even a short two years after. General consensus is that he is one of our best all-round players and can play in any situation, and at LW or C. He looks stronger this year from the games I have seen and his puck control is much improved against bigger competition. Even with his little scoring slump on a team that just wasn't scoring goals, I feel he is our most NHL ready prospect playing in NA.

2003 and Kostitsyn at 10th. A home run type of pick, big risk big reward. I had a short list of Kosty, Getzlaf and Parise. I thought we already had a Parise type player in Higgins so felt it was a two horse race, and in hind sight, still don't mind this pick. Kosty is slowly adjusting to North America and the pro game, not entirely unlike most of those guys we talked about in the previous drafts noted above. He seems to have bulked up and his shot is surpreme, now once he gets accustomed to the game and learns the language, he may start to tap into that great potential that had some scouts drooling last year.

2004 and our Blue-Chipper at 18th. I had a short list as well of Chip, Meszaros and Korpikoski, but figured all things being equal, they would pick Chipchura since he brings a lot to the table. Until that recent unfortunate injury and based on his perfromance at our rookie camp against older players, and his recent play in the WHL-Russia gig against excellent competition, he looked good. He is still only 18 and has lots of potential, and with two more years of junior ahead of his because of his age, we will likely be seeing and hearing lots more about this young guy in the next few years as he develops his game.

So, all this to say, that I personally don't feel that management has really dropped the ball with our recent first round picks. Some are clearly developing slowly and are quite enigmatic, but the oldest of this recent bunch is still only 23!!

NWT Habs Fan is offline  
Old
12-06-2004, 10:07 PM
  #20
Corey
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,300
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWT Habs Fan
I am with Marc on this subject entirely...two great posts BTW!!

Let's look year by year:

2000 with the 13th and 16th pick, we ended up with Hainsey and Hossa. That year was a stud year with the top picks and then the talent and "sure thing" really drops off. In hindsight, would I rather have say Volchenkov and Frolov instead of our duo? Perhaps, but both Hainsey and Hossa are young and I am not convinced that they are official busts yet. Hossa is playing good hockey in the SEL, and likely will get worked into a top spot once hockey resumes. Sure, Hainsey isn't convincing everybody game after game in the AHL, but he is being asked to do it all on a fairly weak Hamilton D. If he gets paired with one of Montreal's steadier stay-at-homers, he will learn a different style than he is seeing in Hamilton these days. I just think that his hockey sense and willingness to use his big body are still below where they need to be.

2001 and the 7th pick brought us Komo. Hard not to like a big, physical defenceman like Komo. At the time, I had my eye on Ruutu or Hemsky if we were going forward, but like Komo with our pick to solidify a fairly weak prospect depth of big, solid defencemen. Komo has been brought in slowly, but has finally started to impress both Gainey and Julien to the point that he was reason enough for management not to play Q in the playoffs and to not resign Q in the off-season. As for this injury, I am glad he is getting top notch medical help to get it fixed without missing any key NHL ice time. He will be back at 100% and raring do go. Later on that round scooping Perezhogin was a great move. On draft day, the TSN analysts did feel he was more of a project than a guy like Hemsky who had just been picked, but they liked his raw skill. His progress has been great: his WJC performances were very solid, he had a great second half in his rookie AHL season, and he is doing well again in the RSL. As others have mentioned, the big question mark is the legal issue and how he gets through that adversity.

2002 and the 14th pick saw us go the NCAA for the third straight year and net Chris Higgins. Pretty hard not to like this pick, even a short two years after. General consensus is that he is one of our best all-round players and can play in any situation, and at LW or C. He looks stronger this year from the games I have seen and his puck control is much improved against bigger competition. Even with his little scoring slump on a team that just wasn't scoring goals, I feel he is our most NHL ready prospect playing in NA.

2003 and Kostitsyn at 10th. A home run type of pick, big risk big reward. I had a short list of Kosty, Getzlaf and Parise. I thought we already had a Parise type player in Higgins so felt it was a two horse race, and in hind sight, still don't mind this pick. Kosty is slowly adjusting to North America and the pro game, not entirely unlike most of those guys we talked about in the previous drafts noted above. He seems to have bulked up and his shot is surpreme, now once he gets accustomed to the game and learns the language, he may start to tap into that great potential that had some scouts drooling last year.

2004 and our Blue-Chipper at 18th. I had a short list as well of Chip, Meszaros and Korpikoski, but figured all things being equal, they would pick Chipchura since he brings a lot to the table. Until that recent unfortunate injury and based on his perfromance at our rookie camp against older players, and his recent play in the WHL-Russia gig against excellent competition, he looked good. He is still only 18 and has lots of potential, and with two more years of junior ahead of his because of his age, we will likely be seeing and hearing lots more about this young guy in the next few years as he develops his game.

So, all this to say, that I personally don't feel that management has really dropped the ball with our recent first round picks. Some are clearly developing slowly and are quite enigmatic, but the oldest of this recent bunch is still only 23!!
A good roundup. I'd say the Habs did reasonably well in those years considering their position in the draft. The most questionable picks are the oldest, Hainsey and Hossa, but as NWT Habs Fan says, they're still young enough to come through.

Corey is offline  
Old
12-06-2004, 11:50 PM
  #21
saskhab
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Saskatoon
Posts: 994
vCash: 500
NWT, you and I have some very similar shortlists. It was Kostitsyn or Getzlaf for me in '03; and Chip, Meszaros, Green and Stafford (thought he might still be around, but wasn't) in '04.

saskhab is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:11 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.