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Leafs Line-up When The Nhl Returns!!

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Old
12-07-2004, 07:25 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
I could just as easily leave Carlo in the AHL, or put Klee down further.
Put Klee down further? Wha???? Are you kidding me? Probobly one of the most under rated defenceman in the league!!!!

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12-07-2004, 08:41 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiedaeagle20
Put Klee down further? Wha???? Are you kidding me? Probobly one of the most under rated defenceman in the league!!!!
Just because the Leafs signed him when no one else wanted him doesn't make him unfairly under rated.

Actually, I believe at this point he is somewhat over rated.

It is all opinion anyway, as stats can't prove either way, and they don't exactly flatter him as it is.

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12-07-2004, 08:47 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
Just because the Leafs signed him when no one else wanted him doesn't make him unfairly under rated.

Actually, I believe at this point he is somewhat over rated.

It is all opinion anyway, as stats can't prove either way, and they don't exactly flatter him as it is.
Well, ya, you are entitled to your opinion, I know nothing I say will change it, I just strongly disagree with you on Klee.

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12-07-2004, 08:53 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by eddiedaeagle20
Well, ya, you are entitled to your opinion, I know nothing I say will change it, I just strongly disagree with you on Klee.
You aren't the only one to disagree with that, but I really see him as a strong 3rd. pairing guy, who only got top two because of the young guys on the Leafs. It isn't like he's been on a contender recently, if ever, so he's probably always deserved the spots he's got.

Put him on a team with a good defense, and he drops down very quickly.

He is a good solid depth guy on a good defense.

Leafs have 3 defenders who've been top 11 in the Norris: Leetch, McCabe, Kaberle.

Carlo Colaiacovo is the only other talent in the organization that I see joining that group, although White may be a surprise.

Carlo may not be ready, but then again he might be. And White has got tonnes of minutes from Shedden, which (although I dislike his style) is saying something.

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12-07-2004, 09:12 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by eddiedaeagle20

What I would like to see done is Antropov and Berg are gone, possibly in a package for some draft picks, give them a fresh start somewhere else.
Give two good young players away for nothing?

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12-07-2004, 09:21 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
You aren't the only one to disagree with that, but I really see him as a strong 3rd. pairing guy, who only got top two because of the young guys on the Leafs. It isn't like he's been on a contender recently, if ever, so he's probably always deserved the spots he's got.

Put him on a team with a good defense, and he drops down very quickly.

He is a good solid depth guy on a good defense.
Agreed.

Klee would be an excellent partner for Colaiacovo on the third pairing. I would prefer a bigger guy in the top 4, especially on our team where the other 3 guys are not intimidators.

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12-07-2004, 09:26 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
Agreed.

Klee would be an excellent partner for Colaiacovo on the third pairing. I would prefer a bigger guy in the top 4, especially on our team where the other 3 guys are not intimidators.
Well, Pilar's stats show he is lighter than Klee, but 3 inches taller, and 6 years younger.

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12-07-2004, 09:30 AM
  #33
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See, the problem is, Klee isn't really that good...it's just that we have no other defencemen to fill that role, so his attributes are overrated.

The truth is, Klee is kind of small and lives by clutching and grabbing. He is brutal with that stuff.

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12-07-2004, 01:16 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
See, the problem is, Klee isn't really that good...it's just that we have no other defencemen to fill that role, so his attributes are overrated.

The truth is, Klee is kind of small and lives by clutching and grabbing. He is brutal with that stuff.
Its what they call "smart" play. Klee is a good complement to an offensive defenseman. He will occasionaly get burned but otherwise he is pretty solid defensively.

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12-07-2004, 02:20 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyCrockett
Its what they call "smart" play. Klee is a good complement to an offensive defenseman. He will occasionaly get burned but otherwise he is pretty solid defensively.
Heh...actually I think it's what they call "obstruction" nowadays.

He's a decent player and I'm not complaining about having him, but he's not a guy I expect to see in the top 4 of a Cup winner.

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12-07-2004, 04:25 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
Heh...actually I think it's what they call "obstruction" nowadays.

He's a decent player and I'm not complaining about having him, but he's not a guy I expect to see in the top 4 of a Cup winner.
We see eye-2-eye on this.

If he's on the top 2 pairings, they have a big hole.

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12-07-2004, 05:28 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
Heh...actually I think it's what they call "obstruction" nowadays.

He's a decent player and I'm not complaining about having him, but he's not a guy I expect to see in the top 4 of a Cup winner.
I expect that every Cup winner has had guy that could be described like that, before it actually happened. We're never going to have four # 1's back there, there just aren't enough to go around.

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12-07-2004, 05:29 PM
  #38
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Here is Leafs Current 20 man roster with 3 spares and Current Salary with Poni unsigned currently

Forwards
1 Sundin..............8,000,000.00
2 Roberts.............3,750,000.00
3 Mogilny.............5,500,000.00
4 Antropov.......... 1,325,000.00
5 Nieuwendyk.......3,000,000.00
6 Ponikarovsky......... Unsigned
7 Tucker.............2,100,000.00
8 Stajan................970,000.00
9 Nolan ..............6,500,000.00
10 Domi .............1,900,000.00
11 Belak .............1,000,000.00
12 Kilger...............800,000.00
13 Perrott...........450,000.00
14 Wilm ............450,000.00


Defense
1 Leetch ..........6,400,000.00
2 McCabe.........4,450,000.00
3 Kaberle..........2,900,000.00
4 Klee..............2,500,000.00
5 Berg...............,400,000.00
6 Colaiacovo.......975,000.00
7 Pilar.............525,000.00

Goalies

1 Belfour............8,000,000.00
2 Tellqvist........... 650,000.00


Totat Team Salary .....$ 63,545,000.00 (without Poni $$)

Suggested Salary Cap : $ 35,000,000

Over Cap Totay....... $ 28,545,000

Unsigned and not counting and already off the books - (have to stop counting them) Berehowsky, Francis, Fitzgerald, Johansson, Kidd , Marchment, Reichel, Renberg

So how can you possibly reduce Salary by $ 28.5 million and still afford Kariya, Kovalev, Lindros and Pronger ... ??

Many years down the road when all current contracts have expired and new ones are signed numbers will be lower but not now ..

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12-07-2004, 05:30 PM
  #39
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Oh I agree see example below .. Grandfathering is for current contracts to expire normally nothing else ..

And from the Example below with numbers .. 28.5 million over a cap (without Poni)

That number has to be reduced down to Zero before UFA spending can truly begin IMO ...

And from Pep's example if Next season you loose

Roberts (3.75m) --------> Kukumberg (500K)
Nieuwendyk (3.0 m) ----> Steen (800 K)
Leetch (6.4m)----------> Hedin (550K)
Mogilny (5.50m) --------> Wellwood (350 K)

Then Leafs have grandfathered in then you have (18.650 mil) OUT + $ 2.2 mil IN a NET difference $ 16.5 mil Reduction and Leafs are still OVER $ 12 MILLION above the Cap figure and NO UFA ...

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12-07-2004, 05:31 PM
  #40
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Agree 100 % and see below .. even with Leetch, Newy, Roberts, Mogilny out and the youngsters in Leafs are still over 12 mil above the Cap with lots of Grandfathering to do yet before spending can begin ..

If the Season started up now ..

****************

MINUS (Berehowsky, Francis, Fitzgerald, Johansson, Kidd , Marchment, Reichel, Renberg)


2004-05 TEAM (+29 Mil Cap)

Roberts -- Sundin -- Mogilny
Poni -- Nieuwendyk-- Antropov
Tucker -- Stajan -- Nolan
Domi -- Wilm -- Kilger
(Belak, Perrott)

Leetch -- McCabe
Kaberle -- Klee
Colaiacovo -- Berg
(Pilar)

Belfour
Telly

2004-05 Team would look like this at 28.5 mil over CAP..Total Salary 64 million.

****************

MINUS (Roberts, Nieuwendyk, Leetch, Mogilny)


2005-06 TEAM (+12 Mil)

Kukumberg -- Sundin -- Steen
Poni -- Wellwood -- Antropov
Tucker -- Stajan -- Nolan
Domi -- Wilm -- Kilger
(Belak, Perrott)

McCabe -- Kaberle
Colaiacovo -- Klee
Berg -- Pilar
(Hedin)

Belfour
Telly

Still 12 million over the legal Cap amount of 35 million Current Salary 47 million

****************

MINUS (Belfour, Nolan, Domi)


2006-07 TEAM (@ Salary Cap 35 Mil)

Kukumberg -- Sundin -- Steen
Poni -- Wellwood -- Antropov
Tucker -- Stajan -- Jeremy Williams
Mitchell -- Wilm -- Kilger
(Belak, Perrott)

McCabe -- Kaberle
Colaiacovo -- Klee
Berg -- Pilar
(Hedin)

Telly
Racine

Finally at a 35 Million Salary Cap and NO UFA

No when all the 2 year contracts are up can the Leafs resign their own at lower rates and begin UFA shopping ..


Last edited by Mess: 12-07-2004 at 06:20 PM.
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Old
12-07-2004, 05:52 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Give two good young players away for nothing?
Draft picks aren't nothing, they're future trade commodoties, or prospects. Antropov isn't accomplishing much with Toronto, and Berg, well Berg is Berg, he only plays great for his home country, otherwise he's very hard to figure out. I'm not saying give them away, they still have value, I just don't see too many teams giving up roster players, or good prospects for them, draft picks are better then nothing, and it will give a chance for someone else to prove themselves.

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12-07-2004, 06:08 PM
  #42
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So how can you possibly reduce Salary by $ 28.5 million and still afford Kariya, Kovalev, Lindros and Pronger ... ??
I explained exactly how they would do it in my post. They replace the veterans we don't resign at a lower cost.

As I said in the other thread, how do the star players continue to make their current salaries, so that they are "big tickets" that the Leafs can't afford...yet play in a $35 million hard cap?

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12-07-2004, 06:30 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
I explained exactly how they would do it in my post. They replace the veterans we don't resign at a lower cost.

As I said in the other thread, how do the star players continue to make their current salaries, so that they are "big tickets" that the Leafs can't afford...yet play in a $35 million hard cap?
Come on Pep you are a smart guy ..You can't say Roberts OUT - Kariya IN .. Newy OUT - Lindros IN ... Mogilny OUT ..Kovalev IN .. it just doesnt work like that ..

When I replace the players as contracts expire (Grandfather) with ZERO UFA just from within the team barely gets to the Salary Cap amount ..

2003-04 Season OVER
MINUS (Berehowsky, Francis, Fitzgerald, Johansson, Kidd , Marchment, Reichel, Renberg) ALL READY OFF THE BOOKS..

2004-05 Now : Team Salary 64 Million ~= 29 Million over .. 2004-05 (if there is a season)


2005-06 Year : Team Salary 47 Million ~= 12 Million over ...

MINUS (Roberts, Nieuwendyk, Leetch, Mogilny) IN (Kukumberg, Steen, Hedin, Wellwood)


2006-07 Year : Team Salary 35 Million
MINUS (Belfour, Nolan, Domi) IN (Jeremy Williams, John Mitchell, JF Racine)

NO UFA until 2 seasons have passed from now .. I did replace all leaving vets with rookies and prospects from with in ..


Last edited by Mess: 12-07-2004 at 06:42 PM.
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12-07-2004, 06:40 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
I explained exactly how they would do it in my post. They replace the veterans we don't resign at a lower cost.

As I said in the other thread, how do the star players continue to make their current salaries, so that they are "big tickets" that the Leafs can't afford...yet play in a $35 million hard cap?
The star players will get less, but the Leafs are already committed to an amount over the cap. That means the Leafs will not be allowed to take advantage of these cheaper stars until they are UNDER the cap.

Once the Leafs have a payroll less than 35 million, they'll be able to sign a star up to the cap amount, in about 3 years. But if they're at 32 million they still won't be able to sign Pronger for 3 million, 'cause someone else will have 5 million in cap space.

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12-07-2004, 06:45 PM
  #45
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wait..this is news to me. forgive me if i look stupid but if the cba is resolved for for eg. 40 million ( i heard a rumor )...wont the players that are already signed be given new contracts?

if not then a team like ours is screwed. with belfour and sundin making 8 million...who else do we put?

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12-07-2004, 07:00 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ic3man24
wait..this is news to me. forgive me if i look stupid but if the cba is resolved for for eg. 40 million ( i heard a rumor )...wont the players that are already signed be given new contracts?

if not then a team like ours is screwed. with belfour and sundin making 8 million...who else do we put?
If a new CBA is signed in the next few weeks and there is a season then all contracts signed before under old CBA expired are valid and continue on with the same amounts and Leafs owe Sundin 4 more years at 8-9 million per ..

Leafs have Sundin's contract for this year and 3 more and Belfour's for this year plus 2 more ..

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12-07-2004, 07:00 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ic3man24
wait..this is news to me. forgive me if i look stupid but if the cba is resolved for for eg. 40 million ( i heard a rumor )...wont the players that are already signed be given new contracts?

if not then a team like ours is screwed. with belfour and sundin making 8 million...who else do we put?
No, they already have contracts, guaranteed by the NHL. They might agree to take a pay cut (10%), but their contracts are not going to be torn up.

So if all the Leafs took the projected 10% cut, they'd only be about 23 million over the cap (58-35).

NO UFA's until they are under the cap.

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12-07-2004, 07:01 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by eddiedaeagle20
Draft picks aren't nothing, they're future trade commodoties, or prospects. Antropov isn't accomplishing much with Toronto, and Berg, well Berg is Berg, he only plays great for his home country, otherwise he's very hard to figure out. I'm not saying give them away, they still have value, I just don't see too many teams giving up roster players, or good prospects for them, draft picks are better then nothing, and it will give a chance for someone else to prove themselves.
They've proved themselves. Antropov is a good young player that can contribute both offensively and defensively. Berg is a darn good 5/6 defenceman and could easily fill in on the top four.

No team in their right mind gives that up in hopes of finding something better.

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12-07-2004, 07:07 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckerdomi
Roberts Sundin Mogilny
Tucker Nieuwendyk Nolan
Stajan Antropov Domi
Belak Wellwood Perrot

Leetch Mccabe
Klee Kaberle
Berg Pilar
Berehowsky(7th)

Belfour- Tellqvist
That... is... one... great.... lineup.

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12-07-2004, 07:56 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by espion
That... is... one... great.... lineup.
Better...than...the...hab....lineup.

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