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Stanley Cup a challenge cup?

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Old
12-05-2004, 11:00 PM
  #1
Crosbyfan
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Stanley Cup a challenge cup?

Check out freestanley.com

A group in Edmonton think that, if the NHL has no season, the CUP should be open to challengers in the spirit of the original deed of gift.

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12-05-2004, 11:07 PM
  #2
Bicycle Repairman
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Good luck with that.

Besides, that's not really a Business of Hockey issue.

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12-05-2004, 11:15 PM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicycle Repairman
Good luck with that.

Besides, that's not really a Business of Hockey issue.
I wasn't sure. Where would it best be posted?

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12-06-2004, 12:18 AM
  #4
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The site doesn't really seem that serious, and it's a little shady that they're accepting donations. If they really want to "free" the cup, they should be trying to dig up the terms of the original cup trusteeship, and see if there's any legal way of getting it away from the current NHL-appointed trustees. Just proposing some fantasy tournament and having a poll on who the new trustees should be isn't going to accomplish anything.

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12-06-2004, 12:47 AM
  #5
me2
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I was under the impression that the best club in Canada (now North America) won it.

Best club in NA? AHL club should get it this year IMHO (barring the NHL resuming). So some lucky AHLers should be getting their names on it this year and preparing space on their fingers for their Stanley Cup Ring.

I'd find it amusing to watch some scrub parade a Stanley Cup ring in front of ringless Pronger.


Quote:
Shortly thereafter, Lord Stanley purchased a silver cup measuring 7 inches high by 11 inches across for the sum of 10 guineas (approximately $50); appointed two Ottawa gentlemen, Sheriff John Sweetland and Philip D. Ross, as trustees of that cup; and set the following preliminary conditions to govern the annual competition:

* The winners to return the Cup in good order when required by the trustees in order that it may be handed over to any other team which may win it.
* Each winning team to have the club name and year engraved on a silver ring fitted on the Cup.
* The Cup to remain a challenge competition and not the property of any one team, even if won more than once.
* The trustees to maintain absolute authority in all situations or disputes over the winner of the Cup.
* A substitute trustee to be named in the event that one of the existing trustees drops out.

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Old
12-06-2004, 12:55 AM
  #6
Bicycle Repairman
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I thought this might be moved to the NHL forum, but so be it.

The Stanley Cup is mothballed. Ain't going anywhere. The NHL owns it outright.

If this "group" wants to ante up for a "Dominion Challenge Trophy" then by all means let's see it.

Good luck lining up contesting teams, though.

The whole idea, while well-meaning, is a joke.

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12-06-2004, 02:07 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicycle Repairman
I thought this might be moved to the NHL forum, but so be it.

The Stanley Cup is mothballed. Ain't going anywhere. The NHL owns it outright.

If this "group" wants to ante up for a "Dominion Challenge Trophy" then by all means let's see it.

Good luck lining up contesting teams, though.

The whole idea, while well-meaning, is a joke.
The "America's Cup" is an older trophy than the Stanley Cup and New Zealand challenged for it under an obscure part of the "deed of gift". The American's were forced to defend that particular challenge by the courts.

I don't see how the NHL owns it outright (possibly the base/design). It could be considered public domain in Canada; possibly North America as US challenges were accepted prior to the NHL's existence. If the NHL wants to "mothball" the Cup for a year that could be a breach of trust. The fans/public have made it what it is as much as the NHL has, probably more.

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12-06-2004, 03:05 AM
  #8
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Well, the originators of the afforementioned website are quoted in the Edmonton Sun admitting their gambit is a bit of a lark and that they lack the financial werewithall to mount a serious legal challenge.

Dead in the water before it even launches, methinks.

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12-06-2004, 03:08 AM
  #9
mudcrutch79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicycle Repairman
The NHL owns it outright.
Not true. But then you don't seem to be one who gives two hoots about facts.

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12-06-2004, 03:15 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mudcrutch79
Not true. But then you don't seem to be one who gives two hoots about facts.
The Trustees are controlled by the NHL.

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12-06-2004, 03:19 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicycle Repairman
The Trustees are controlled by the NHL.
No they aren't. Courtesy of legendsofhockey.net, "When one trustee chooses to resign or is in need of replacement, the remaining trustee nominates a substitute. The trustees have absolute power over all matters regarding the Stanley Cup."

That would seem to suggest to me that the NHL doesn't control the nominees.

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12-06-2004, 03:42 AM
  #12
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Who pays the majority of the bills for the Hockey Hall of Fame?

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12-06-2004, 03:45 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicycle Repairman
Who pays the majority of the bills for the Hockey Hall of Fame?
I have no idea. Why don't you do some research for once on here instead of filling space with ignorant posts devoid of substance? Even if the NHL does pay the bills, it has no impact on the power of the trustees to appoint who they want.

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12-06-2004, 05:52 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mudcrutch79
Even if the NHL does pay the bills, it has no impact on the power of the trustees to appoint who they want.
In theory. But not when the trustees are Brian O'Neill (former NHL VP) and Scotty Morrison (former NHL referee-in-chief and current HoF chairman). The likelihood of those two turning on the NHL and biting the hand that feeds them is about the same as that of Bob Goodenow announcing he's quitting the NHLPA to make a comeback as a replacement player next season.

(Literally speaking, though, BR is wrong: if the NHL ever came out and announced they owned the cup outright, that could really backfire on them as the trustees probably don't have the ability to transfer ownership to the league. But I'm not sure of the exact consequences - whether it'd mean a court could or would remove O'Neill and Morrison as trustees and appoint new ones, or simply invalidate the trust and give the Cup back to Lord Stanley's successor to do with as he sees fit.)

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12-06-2004, 06:01 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me2
I was under the impression that the best club in Canada (now North America) won it.

Best club in NA? AHL club should get it this year IMHO (barring the NHL resuming). So some lucky AHLers should be getting their names on it this year and preparing space on their fingers for their Stanley Cup Ring.

I'd find it amusing to watch some scrub parade a Stanley Cup ring in front of ringless Pronger.
ummm, there are plenty of scrubs with rings while Pronger doesn't have one.

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12-06-2004, 06:09 AM
  #16
mudcrutch79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lard_Lad
(Literally speaking, though, BR is wrong: if the NHL ever came out and announced they owned the cup outright, that could really backfire on them as the trustees probably don't have the ability to transfer ownership to the league. But I'm not sure of the exact consequences - whether it'd mean a court could or would remove O'Neill and Morrison as trustees and appoint new ones, or simply invalidate the trust and give the Cup back to Lord Stanley's successor to do with as he sees fit.)
The trustees are bound by any conditions that may have been set out in the trust. I don't know what they are either. I'm sure BR will tell us how it works though, and give us a tour through the various legalities.

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12-06-2004, 02:47 PM
  #17
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Possession is 9/10ths of the law. The NHL has had exclusive domain over the use of the Stanley Cup for almost 80 years. Not even Lord Stanley's heirs can challenge that (not that they would want to).

Three imbeciles in Edmonton aren't going to change that.

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12-06-2004, 03:05 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicycle Repairman
Possession is 9/10ths of the law.
Thanks for sharing that bit of insight.

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12-06-2004, 03:39 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand
ummm, there are plenty of scrubs with rings while Pronger doesn't have one.
I can't help but imagine what Lonny Bohonos would be thinking with Lord Stanley at the end of his arms...


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12-06-2004, 05:38 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ti-vite
I can't help but imagine what Lonny Bohonos would be thinking with Lord Stanley at the end of his arms...


hehe. Lonny and Corry Hirsh can take it on a tour to Pronger's place and follow him around for the day.

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12-06-2004, 06:31 PM
  #21
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In 1947, the NHL assumed exclusive control of the Stanley Cup, under the stipulation that the NHL determine the condition of Challenge.

- Calgary Sun, April 3, 1996

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12-06-2004, 06:39 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicycle Repairman
In 1947, the NHL assumed exclusive control of the Stanley Cup, under the stipulation that the NHL determine the condition of Challenge.

- Calgary Sun, April 3, 1996
Given your immense problem at providing correct facts, I think I'd be remiss if I didn't ask for a link.

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12-06-2004, 06:44 PM
  #23
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Here's an interesting article in which the very subject of ownership of the Stanley Cup is discussed.

I find this part most interesting:

"In 1947 there was a formal agreement between the trustees whereby the league was delegated the full authority ... making the Stanley Cup a competition for NHL teams," points out Gary Meagher, the NHL vice-president of public relations. He's right. You can check it in Total Hockey, 2nd Edition. Page 355. But wait...! The text goes on: "the agreement shall remain in force so long as the league continues to be the world's leading professional hockey league as determined by it's playing calibre, and in the event of dissolution or other termination of the National Hockey League, the Stanley Cup shall revert to the custody of the trustees."

No season should mean that the NHL is no longer the world's leading professional hockey league, correct?

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12-06-2004, 06:46 PM
  #24
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Wow BR. Five whole minutes before someone wandered in and discredited your claim. That's impressive.

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12-06-2004, 06:51 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EventHorizon
Here's an interesting article in which the very subject of ownership of the Stanley Cup is discussed.

I find this part most interesting:

"In 1947 there was a formal agreement between the trustees whereby the league was delegated the full authority ... making the Stanley Cup a competition for NHL teams," points out Gary Meagher, the NHL vice-president of public relations. He's right. You can check it in Total Hockey, 2nd Edition. Page 355. But wait...! The text goes on: "the agreement shall remain in force so long as the league continues to be the world's leading professional hockey league as determined by it's playing calibre, and in the event of dissolution or other termination of the National Hockey League, the Stanley Cup shall revert to the custody of the trustees."

No season should mean that the NHL is no longer the world's leading professional hockey league, correct?
No, because the NHL has not dissolved or terminated itself. They are merely on hiatus.

And because the trustees are essentially controlled by the league, the question is moot.

The writer even admits his folly.

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