HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > International Tournaments
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

What would rosters look like without NHL players?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-20-2013, 06:09 PM
  #1
Sakic
Extra B is for BYOBB
 
Sakic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,597
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Sakic Send a message via Yahoo to Sakic
What would rosters look like without NHL players?

There's a lot of talk about NHL players not participating in 2018, and there was some talk about next year.

Hypothetically, if the NHL had refused to go to the olympics in 2014, what would some of the rosters look like? What are the rules for participating or not?

Ideally, this would be for 2018, but that's too far away to guess for.

Sakic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2013, 06:42 PM
  #2
JoeCool16
Registered User
 
JoeCool16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,960
vCash: 500
For Canada, a cross between the Spengler cup and the AHL all-star game rosters, I guess? A few top-tier junior players possibly?

JoeCool16 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2013, 07:47 PM
  #3
Xokkeu
Registered User
 
Xokkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Frozen
Country: Antarctica
Posts: 4,712
vCash: 500
What would they look like? Terrible.

Xokkeu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2013, 09:15 PM
  #4
FiLe
Mr. Know-It-Nothing
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Country: Finland
Posts: 3,719
vCash: 500
Russia would be the biggest beneficiary, of course. From the KHL, they could ice what talentwise rivals a full-blown NHL squad. Even now, their team is expected to have around 50-50 NHL-KHL ratio.

Finland would probably benefit second most, with the Czechs following close behind. The rest of the top teams, Canada, USA and Sweden are so dependent of their NHLers that they would be in deep doo-doo.

FiLe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2013, 09:33 PM
  #5
Loffer
Registered User
 
Loffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,211
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
What would they look like? Terrible.
Pretty much this.

Loffer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2013, 09:36 PM
  #6
Sakic
Extra B is for BYOBB
 
Sakic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,597
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Sakic Send a message via Yahoo to Sakic
So in 2018, would there be more preparation? Holding prospects from NHL etc...?

Canada and USA would likely still need to be competitive withs pro's not in the NHL...what would they do?

Sakic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 01:26 AM
  #7
Xokkeu
Registered User
 
Xokkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Frozen
Country: Antarctica
Posts: 4,712
vCash: 500
Russia would be a heavy favorite for gold. If the Americans got their AHL players they'd at least be competitive. Not good by any means, but take out the AHLers and make an all NCAA / Euro affair and they'd be lucky win a game.

Xokkeu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 03:41 AM
  #8
Fragmuffin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Zagreb
Country: Croatia
Posts: 257
vCash: 500
I think that you largely underestimate USA players from European leagues if you think that they would be so much weaker then an USA-AHL all star squad.

Fragmuffin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 03:44 AM
  #9
UsernameWasTaken
Let's Go Blue Jays!
 
UsernameWasTaken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,192
vCash: 500
I think US/Canada would get runover by Euro countries.

I know that Bettman has threatened to cut off our Olympic fix...but is it a genuine threat? I thought he was desperate to put together a world cup competition...which presumably would require the consent of the players. And i'm guessing the NHLPA would force the NHL to agree to 2018 if they were going to agree to a world cup.

...or am i missing something (or being naive)?

UsernameWasTaken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 08:00 AM
  #10
m4tt145
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Country: Sweden
Posts: 1,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Russia would be the biggest beneficiary, of course. From the KHL, they could ice what talentwise rivals a full-blown NHL squad. Even now, their team is expected to have around 50-50 NHL-KHL ratio.

Finland would probably benefit second most, with the Czechs following close behind. The rest of the top teams, Canada, USA and Sweden are so dependent of their NHLers that they would be in deep doo-doo.
Remember that Sweden beat Finland with 3-2, and the Czechs with 6-0 in the last tournament. I can assure you that we would not find ourselfes in any deep doo-doo with only european players. Sorry..


Last edited by m4tt145: 11-21-2013 at 08:10 AM.
m4tt145 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 08:16 AM
  #11
FiLe
Mr. Know-It-Nothing
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Country: Finland
Posts: 3,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by m4tt145 View Post
Remember that Sweden beat Finland with 3-2, and the Czechs with 6-0 in the last tournament. I can assure you that we would not find ourselfes in any deep doo-doo with only european players. Sorry..
And you should remember overall results from the last few years. Sweden hasn't really been much of a threat without at least some of their top shelf NHLers peppering the squad. And even the Sweden you're referring to lost 5-1 to Russia and was mostly under constant pressure from the Finns. In 2012 WHC, they were heavily underperforming until the Sedins dug 'em out of the hole.

They would be competitive, sure, just like any NA squad comprised of Euro players and those from lower leagues - they're still professional hockey players, after all - but hardly big favorites for anything.

It's about feeling the relative pain. The Russians would hardly feel it, and for the Finns it wouldn't make much of a difference when compared to our recent WHC squads. But it's obvious that the drop in talent for the NA countries and Sweden would be noticeable.

Of course, it'd still be a single-game elimination tournament, so the argument of how things look on paper would be as void as it is now, I'll give you that.


Last edited by FiLe: 11-21-2013 at 08:23 AM.
FiLe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 08:31 AM
  #12
JackSlater
Registered User
 
JackSlater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,588
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakic View Post
So in 2018, would there be more preparation? Holding prospects from NHL etc...?

Canada and USA would likely still need to be competitive withs pro's not in the NHL...what would they do?
Why would they need to be competitive? It would be a pointless tournament. There are still talented NA players in the European leagues, and augmented with some AHL players they would probably be decent, but the whole exercise would be irrelevant. A tournament is great because it has the world's best players, not because of its name.

JackSlater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 08:50 AM
  #13
m4tt145
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Country: Sweden
Posts: 1,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
And you should remember overall results from the last few years. Sweden hasn't really been much of a threat without at least some of their top shelf NHLers peppering the squad. And even the Sweden you're referring to lost 5-1 to Russia and was mostly under constant pressure from the Finns. In 2012 WHC, they were heavily underperforming until the Sedins dug 'em out of the hole.

They would be competitive, sure, just like any NA squad comprised of Euro players and those from lower leagues - they're still professional hockey players, after all - but hardly big favorites for anything.

It's about feeling the relative pain. The Russians would hardly feel it, and for the Finns it wouldn't make much of a difference when compared to our recent WHC squads. But it's obvious that the drop in talent for the NA countries and Sweden would be noticeable.

Of course, it'd still be a single-game elimination tournament, so the argument of how things look on paper would be as void as it is now, I'll give you that.
I do not think that results from 3-4 years ago is relevant. Possibly results for 1-2 years ago, but no more, since the squads change frequently.

And I must have missed that constant pressure you're talking about, I thought it was a pretty even game.

It's just stupid to say that if NHLers weren't allowed, Sweden would be at the same level as USA/Canada. It's not true and I think you know that. Id say Sweden is 3rd, after Russia (1nd) and Finland, in europe.

And as for your eurotalent, it really isn't that good. Better than Swedens of course, but as soon as it meets harder opponents, it doesn't work. We saw that clearly in the WC.

m4tt145 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 09:17 AM
  #14
FiLe
Mr. Know-It-Nothing
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Country: Finland
Posts: 3,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by m4tt145 View Post
I do not think that results from 3-4 years ago is relevant. Possibly results for 1-2 years ago, but no more, since the squads change frequently.
Are you really asking me to recite Sweden's results from last two EHT seasons? Because believe me, you would NOT like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m4tt145 View Post
It's just stupid to say that if NHLers weren't allowed, Sweden would be at the same level as USA/Canada. It's not true and I think you know that. Id say Sweden is 3rd, after Russia (1nd) and Finland, in europe.
That depends on whether the NA teams could use AHLers or not. If they can't hoard players even from that league, it's obvious that the CHL/NCAA Canada/USA with some euro players thrown to the mix are not quite worth of Sweden's pro euros. But if they can, well... Sweden lacks some KHL talent, so they would be on par with those mostly AHL squads. It's the league where most of the foreign players doing rounds around the leagues in Europe (such as SHL or Liiga) are coming from.

The KHL makes the difference here. It's the second best league after the NHL, and the Russians, Finns and Czechs can hoard talent from there. Swedes, not so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m4tt145 View Post
And as for your eurotalent, it really isn't that good. Better than Swedens of course, but as soon as it meets harder opponents, it doesn't work. We saw that clearly in the WC.
Maybe. But that would be a moot point, because there would be no such opposition in this hypothetical tournament. And Finland has never had any trouble with Russia, quite the opposite. Unlike...


Last edited by FiLe: 11-21-2013 at 09:28 AM.
FiLe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 09:39 AM
  #15
m4tt145
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Country: Sweden
Posts: 1,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Are you really asking me to recite Sweden's results from last two EHT seasons? Because believe me, you would NOT like that.

That depends on whether the NA teams could use AHLers or not. If they can't hoard players even from that league, it's obvious that the CHL/NCAA Canada/USA with some euro players thrown to the mix are not quite worth of Sweden's pro euros. But if they can, well... Sweden lacks some KHL talent, so they would be on par with those mostly AHL squads. It's the league where most of the foreign players doing rounds around the leagues in Europe (such as SHL or Liiga) are coming from.

The KHL makes the difference here. It's the second best league after the NHL, and the Russians, Finns and Czechs can hoard talent from there. Swedes, not so much.

Maybe. But that would be a moot point, because there would be no such opposition in this hypothetical tournament. And Finland has never had any trouble with Russia, quite the opposite. Unlike...
Just to make it clear, im not trying to make this intro a Finland vs Sweden thing

And it's true that we lack KHL talent, I don't really know why. The reasons I can think of is that our borderline NHLers rather stay in NA than go to KHL, if we could bring our AHLers, it would be a pretty strong team aswell.

About the results from the past 2 EHT seasons, Sweden has 10 wins and 13 losses (+ 1 OT loss), while Finland has 9 wins and 10 losses (+ 2 OT wins and 3 OT losses). Not that bad if you ask me. Although if you go as far back to 10, 09 and 08, Sweden has some bad results.


Last edited by m4tt145: 11-21-2013 at 09:45 AM.
m4tt145 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 09:51 AM
  #16
FiLe
Mr. Know-It-Nothing
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Country: Finland
Posts: 3,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by m4tt145 View Post
Just to make it clear, im not trying to make this intro a Finland vs Sweden thing

And it's true that we lack KHL talent, I don't really know why. The reasons I can think of is that our borderline NHLers rather stay in NA than go to KHL, if we could bring our AHLers, it would be a pretty strong team aswell.
And I never meant to say that Sweden or NA teams would be weak. They'd just have a far steeper hill to climb than they do now. Whereas Russia and Finland and the Czechs would find their tournament just got a whole lotta easier.

Nobody would still label a team from any of the big countries a pushover though.

For what it's worth, even if having no NHL talent available would make it so much easier for Finland to medal or even compete for gold, I too still prefer a tournament with all the best players available. Those are always a treat, no matter who wins.

FiLe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 11:14 AM
  #17
651*
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Capital of MN 651
Country: United States
Posts: 2,601
vCash: 500
Miracle on Ice was all college kids - almost half from Mass. and half from MN.

651* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 11:37 AM
  #18
FiLe
Mr. Know-It-Nothing
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Country: Finland
Posts: 3,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 651 View Post
Miracle on Ice was all college kids - almost half from Mass. and half from MN.
Hockey has developed quite a bit since 1980. Back then, on the European side, only players from the Soviet Union and maybe Czechoslovakia were full-on pros.

So if we think about the college boys back then facing 1-2 teams comparable to current pro euro talent, this time around there'd be 4-5 such squads to contend.

FiLe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 02:45 PM
  #19
Eidyia
Registered User
 
Eidyia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Oulu
Country: Finland
Posts: 566
vCash: 500
Finland would look something like this (in 2014, it's too early for 2018):

Aaltonen (Kärpät,FEL) - Kontiola (Torpedo,KHL) - Pesonen (Kazan,KHL)

Hietanen (Torpedo,KHL) - Väänänen (Jokerit,FEL)


Salminen (Torpedo,KHL) - Lehterä (Sibir,KHL) - Komarov (OHK Dinamo,KHL)

Lepistö (Avtomobilist,KHL) - Kukkonen (Kärpät,FEL)


Pulkkinen (Grand Rapids,AHL) - Immonen (Torpedo,KHL) - Armia (Rochester,AHL)

Jalasvaara (OHK Dinamo,KHL) - Eronen (Jokerit,FEL)


Osala (Neftehimik,KHL) - Kapanen (Lev Praha,KHL) - Hartikainen (Ufa,KHL)

Järvinen (Milwaukee,AHL) - Jaakola (Lev Praha,KHL)


Vehanen (Lev Praha,KHL)
Koskinen (Sibir,KHL)
Rynnäs (Kärpät,FEL)


Last edited by Eidyia: 11-21-2013 at 03:19 PM.
Eidyia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 03:00 PM
  #20
FiLe
Mr. Know-It-Nothing
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Country: Finland
Posts: 3,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidyia View Post
Jalasvaara (OHK Dinamo,KHL) - Eronen (Jokerit,KHL)
Jumping the gun there a bit.

I think the participation of AHL players would depend solely on whether the organization would be willing to let them go or not, like the situation is with the WJCs.

If we are to use Eidyia's lineup as an example, I'd say Detroit would be willing to let Pulkkinen go - but apparently Armia and Järvinen are pretty high on Buffalo's and Nashville's injury replacement lists, so them going would be far more uncertain.

Also, even if all AHLers were fair game, I'd say Finland's management would still favor European-based players. For example, guys like Hagman, Pihlström and Rajala would be far closer to a ticket than Pulkkinen and Armia.

FiLe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 03:16 PM
  #21
Eidyia
Registered User
 
Eidyia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Oulu
Country: Finland
Posts: 566
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Jumping the gun there a bit.
Whoops, honest mistake!

Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
I think the participation of AHL players would depend solely on whether the organization would be willing to let them go or not, like the situation is with the WJCs.

If we are to use Eidyia's lineup as an example, I'd say Detroit would be willing to let Pulkkinen go - but apparently Armia and Järvinen are pretty high on Buffalo's and Nashville's injury replacement lists, so them going would be far more uncertain.

Also, even if all AHLers were fair game, I'd say Finland's management would still favor European-based players. For example, guys like Hagman, Pihlström and Rajala would be far closer to a ticket than Pulkkinen and Armia.
I actually thought of that and almost put on a disclaimer that if AHL'ers are no-go too, then they would be replaced with guys like Hagman, Pihlström and Mäntylä.

Eidyia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 04:12 PM
  #22
FiLe
Mr. Know-It-Nothing
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Country: Finland
Posts: 3,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidyia View Post
I actually thought of that and almost put on a disclaimer that if AHL'ers are no-go too, then they would be replaced with guys like Hagman, Pihlström and Mäntylä.
Except I think those euros would be favored whether AHLers were allowed to go or not.

FiLe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 04:25 PM
  #23
651*
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Capital of MN 651
Country: United States
Posts: 2,601
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Hockey has developed quite a bit since 1980. Back then, on the European side, only players from the Soviet Union and maybe Czechoslovakia were full-on pros.

So if we think about the college boys back then facing 1-2 teams comparable to current pro euro talent, this time around there'd be 4-5 such squads to contend.
Not if they were all pros like all Americans would be pros.

651* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 04:30 PM
  #24
Eidyia
Registered User
 
Eidyia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Oulu
Country: Finland
Posts: 566
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Except I think those euros would be favored whether AHLers were allowed to go or not.
Depends on who'd be coaching the team. But yeah, most likely you're right.

Eidyia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2013, 04:53 PM
  #25
FiLe
Mr. Know-It-Nothing
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Country: Finland
Posts: 3,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 651 View Post
Not if they were all pros like all Americans would be pros.
Don't get the point, really.

The thing is, if USA were to send a team comprised of NCAA players to the 2014 games like they did in 1980, the relative opposition between all the pro euro squads would be far steeper than it was back then, no matter whether the college boys too would be pros or not. It's not to say they couldn't compete, but winning the gold would be even greater miracle than it was 34 years ago.

Of course, if USA could get enough AHLers released for these games and mix in some of their own pros playing in Europe, they'd obviously have a more competitive squad. But your original message was implying that because USA was able to win with college boys in 1980, they could win with them again. To which I'd like to say, well, good luck with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidyia View Post
Depends on who'd be coaching the team. But yeah, most likely you're right.
Since we're talking about these games, it'd still be Erkka. So yeah. Do the math.


Last edited by FiLe: 11-21-2013 at 05:02 PM.
FiLe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:54 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.