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Dynasty? My thoughts .... and yours

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Old
04-17-2012, 12:03 PM
  #1
plenewken
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Dynasty? My thoughts .... and yours

When the Penguins lost to Detroit in the 2008 Stanley Cup, most observers said that the Penguins were at the beginning of a long period of domination, based on the age of their players.
They won the Cup in 2009 and this was the confirmation of this observation.
We all thought that the Penguins would be one of the dominant teams for many years.

What happened since then is a completely different story and a very disappointing one.
In 2010, they lost against Montreal in the 2nd round of the playoffs, and in 2011, they lost against Tampa Bay in the 1st round, losing 3 games in a row, including 2 at Consol (8-2 and 1-0).
This year, they're on the verge of being swept against the Flyers in the 1st round after another pathetic performance.

Bottom line is, top teams don't lay huge eggs 3 years in a row and I think the window of opportunity is closing much more rapidly than anticipated.

Big changes must occur, for sure, but I don't know which ones. Coaching staff? Players? GM?

Your thoughts?

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04-17-2012, 12:06 PM
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SkullSplitter
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Hard to be a dynasty with the salary cap & parity & injuries.

Something's gotta change though, & I'm sure RS will have a plan.

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04-17-2012, 12:08 PM
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UnderratedBrooks44
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What's with all the window talk? As long as we keep 3-4 particular guys around we'll always have a chance. These guys are in their mid-20s. Barring a career-ending injury I don't get the doom and gloom for the future. They suck ass this year and have no guts and some major adjustments need to be made. I'll never forgive them for this turd of a season but it's a whole new ball game starting the day after the Cup is raised.

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04-17-2012, 12:19 PM
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plenewken
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
They suck ass this year and have no guts and some major adjustments need to be made. I'll never forgive them for this turd of a season but it's a whole new ball game starting the day after the Cup is raised.
They've sucked @ss last year too and it was only marginally better in 2009-2010, I'm just sayin'.

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04-17-2012, 12:24 PM
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Doubt you see 3 cups in 4 years or something like that happen very much, if at all, for the foreseeable future. We're talking about a salary cap league, and a sport where a goalie for an average team can almost singlehandedly knock a favorite out (see Halak).

If the Penguins continue to be a top team throughout the next 10 years and win another cup we should all be happy. If we win two or more cups in that time we should be ecstatic.

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04-17-2012, 12:24 PM
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UnderratedBrooks44
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Originally Posted by plenewken View Post
They've sucked @ss last year too and it was only marginally better in 2009-2010, I'm just sayin'.
Like I said, some changes need to be made at the end of the day. I never liked the coach post-Cup if you want to go back further. Never liked signing Martin either but trusted in the GM. We'll see what happens.

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04-17-2012, 12:25 PM
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Luigi Lemieux
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It just shows that in a cup run the complimentary players are just as important as the core players. Important players gone from the 08 and/or 09 teams are: Hossa, Malone, Gonchar, Eaton, Scuderi, Gill, Talbot, and Guerin. The intangibles that these guys provided are not easily replaced, even if the core is the same now.

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04-17-2012, 12:32 PM
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Old
04-17-2012, 12:37 PM
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dr robbie
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Originally Posted by Luigi Lemieux View Post
It just shows that in a cup run the complimentary players are just as important as the core players. Important players gone from the 08 and/or 09 teams are: Hossa, Malone, Gonchar, Eaton, Scuderi, Gill, Talbot, and Guerin. The intangibles that these guys provided are not easily replaced, even if the core is the same now.
I really wish we kept the likes of Gonchar, Scuds, Gill and Talbot. The first three were great defenders (yes, even Gill at the time). Talbot is about as clutch as you can get.

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04-17-2012, 12:39 PM
  #10
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While I still hold out a small amount of hope the Pens can get this figured out and win the next 4, I am not holding my breath. So my thoughts.

I am very concerned about the coaching. NHL coaches traditionally have a very short shelf life, and Bylsma may have hit the wall with this team. Clearly they are not listening to the coaches, and have not been for 5 or 6 weeks. This is a tough call for me, jettisoning Bylsma right now could be a big mistake, as I am not entirely convinced there are not real issues with personnel as well. I think you have to give him one more year, with some changes to the assistants, and a short leash next year. I believe Shero is safe thank god.

I am of the opinion Staal wants to be a top six center more than he wants to be on this team. I say trade him if you can get a big return. Staal could be the starting center on a dozen teams in this league and is a huge asset due to the higher upside he has flashed this season. Once again-this is a tough decision unless Staal refuses to sign at under 6 mil a year.

We need to move a defenseman or two, as bad as they have played this year, every one of them would be in demand if they were up for auction this summer. Give Lovejoy away if you can. I truly believe the disappointing 3 would all play much better in a tight disciplined defensive system, and other teams will feel the same way. The key is to get a real return, which we should be able to get, even for Martin.

We need to make room for two rookie defenseman, two of the three of Bortuzo, Strait, Depres. Odd man out needs to be traded, or possibly given our now historic injury issues, Depres starts the season in WBS as our first inevitable call-up. I believe Bort and Strait are legit bottom pair defenseman right now, and they need to play somewhere. I like Bort of Strait because of size which we are surely lacking on this team, so trade Strait, Bort is your 7 and Depres is your 6 if I had my way. Would love to keep Niskannen, dude really showed me something playing in game three.

This team needs to trade for a decent back-up goalie, there are no reasonably decent options that we can afford in FA in summer.

We for sure need a goalie coach.

I believe we need to clear out some wingers - Adams, Asham, Kennedy, Park need to go IMO. Shero has done a great job in past years of bringing in tough grinding bottom six wingers for cheap. We need some of that magic this summer Ray.

So in order to get the U.S.S Dynasty righted and back on course, I think we need a couple or three new assistant coaches; we need to move a player or two on the D, and we need to move several of our bottom six wingers.

What we bring in to replace these guys with will be absolutely key. I think Tangradi needs to play, Jeffrey needs to play, Bortuzo or Strait need to play, the other one traded and Depres needs to play. I want Morrow to get at least 50 games in the minors before coming aboard. I would love to get a guy like Chris Stewart, like his size and skill package, but really we need some fresh quality tough leaders on this team, that is really key IMO. I like Ray Whitney BTW as a leader who still can play a scoring role.... That's it for now.


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Old
04-17-2012, 12:41 PM
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Unstable
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Montreal in 2010 was absurd, I don't think you can count that in any trends. Shaky defense vs. Tampa last year and Philly now is a worry, but it's a little early to say that the "dynasty" is over.

I think it's also hard to say a "dynasty" was born based on two trips to the Finals and one win.

I think this is something that really has to be judged in retrospect. Give it two-three more years; if the Pens win the Cup again with multiple Finals trips or win more than one Cup, then the entire era will be a dynasty with a small speedbump.

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04-17-2012, 12:52 PM
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Montreal in 2010 was absurd, I don't think you can count that in any trends. Shaky defense vs. Tampa last year and Philly now is a worry, but it's a little early to say that the "dynasty" is over.
Every single of the last three playoff series has been "absurd". The most consistent thing about the Pens these days seems to be the playoff descent into absurdity.

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04-17-2012, 01:25 PM
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Every single of the last three playoff series has been "absurd". The most consistent thing about the Pens these days seems to be the playoff descent into absurdity.
No, I mean Montreal's run was absurd. I think that was more about MTR than PIT. 2011 and 2012 (so far) are more about PIT.

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04-17-2012, 01:28 PM
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Well last year was w/out Crosby and Malkin, so that's not even the same team. I take more from the Montreal upset than the TB loss.

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04-17-2012, 02:27 PM
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Well last year was w/out Crosby and Malkin, so that's not even the same team. I take more from the Montreal upset than the TB loss.
It's been two years, but IIRC Halak stood on his head for two rounds before imploding in round 3, no?

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04-17-2012, 02:32 PM
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plenewken
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Well last year was w/out Crosby and Malkin, so that's not even the same team. I take more from the Montreal upset than the TB loss.
Last year, we were 3-1 without Crosby and Malkin and we managed to lose the next 3 games, including 2 at home. The 5th game at Consol, which we lost 8-2, was a total embarrassment. Sounds familiar no?

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04-17-2012, 02:36 PM
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No, I mean Montreal's run was absurd. I think that was more about MTR than PIT. 2011 and 2012 (so far) are more about PIT.
Eh ... that series against Montreal went to 7 games, and that was because Fleury had arguably a worse playoff series than he's having this year against Philly. If Fleury was even average that year -- not good, not great, just average -- then even with Halak's magic, the Pens would have won that series.

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04-17-2012, 02:46 PM
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Unstable
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Eh ... that series against Montreal went to 7 games, and that was because Fleury had arguably a worse playoff series than he's having this year against Philly. If Fleury was even average that year -- not good, not great, just average -- then even with Halak's magic, the Pens would have won that series.
I'll have to defer to you on this, but I am more or less convinced. I admit to paying more attention to Halak seeing as I live in Virginia (played MTR in round one) and am from Philadelphia (played MTR in round three).

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04-17-2012, 02:47 PM
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Will we be a dynasty? In this day and age? Nahhh. Like others have said, the salary cap, parity, and injuries put somewhat of a damper on that.

But nevertheless, I think when Sid and Geno hang em' up, this era will be historically marked and percieved by us fans as a great one. While we may not win 4-5 Cups, I'm sure Sid and Geno have a few more Art Ross's, Conn Smythe's, Rockets, and Harts left in in them. Not to mention explosively dominent offensive streaks that go on for many consecutive games and so on. Not to mention a Cup or two.

Just my $0.02


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04-17-2012, 08:29 PM
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If you dont get at least 2 cups out of the crosby malkin era than its an embarassment. this team is no dynasty its a joke. You know I can always rip on flyers fans and would defend the pens against anything. But this...... I have nothing to say. Not even the play on the Ice just the general attitude. No one has steped up. No one has made a statement. No one will just be a leader and say the right things. Crosby is a great captain but nows when his team needs him.

The dirty plays the ******** effort. The complete loss of focus. I am realy and truly embarassed by this team. Not the franchise any criticism lemeiux gets is undeserved. The guys on the ice have let us all down. Theres no dignity in that locker room right now.

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04-17-2012, 08:43 PM
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My thought is that I look back to June of 2009 and think only two things: 'How did we get here' and 'what might have been'.

I think ownership is thinking the same thing. And, that's why I chuckle a little when some here argue that the 'change' this offseason will be limited to finding someone to take Martin and rearranging the fourth line.

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04-17-2012, 10:05 PM
  #22
Jill Sandwich
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Dynasties aren't units of players that stay together, they're styles of play that maintain.

Our style of play has not maintained. The kind of hockey we've been playing the last month is not 2009 Penguins hockey. And that's why Dan Bylsma needs to be fired.

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04-17-2012, 10:08 PM
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vodeni
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even with these colapses there is no team not even remotely fun to watch. with Sid and letang and Gino,,,,
however, if you think that the Owners found money on the street and let Pittsburgh media decide for them who's elite and who's not, you're wrong. Early exits not gonna cut it,,,,so Bylsma and others short leash

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04-17-2012, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jill Sandwich View Post
Dynasties aren't units of players that stay together, they're styles of play that maintain.

Our style of play has not maintained. The kind of hockey we've been playing the last month is not 2009 Penguins hockey. And that's why Dan Bylsma needs to be fired.
I think this depends on how much say Bylsma had in who they signed and who they let walk. If Shero simply gave him these players w/o his input then I think you give Bylsma another pass. It seemed pretty clear to me at the beginning of the season that we had gotten too small and soft considering the players we lost and who we replaced them with. Throw in that Martin is worthless and expensive and you have the makings of a team that was lucky to finish where they did. I was worried they might wear down by the end of the season. I'm not sure that they wore down but they do seem to be running out of gas after clearly being the better team for the first period of every game of this series.

What really bugs me is that we had all kinds of arguments about getting a high paid winger vs dman and it turns out Shero went with the Dman. I can't help but wonder what may have been had Shero opted to fill the winger need and ignored the D which in retrospect he really didn't address anyway.

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Old
04-17-2012, 10:41 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unstable View Post
I'll have to defer to you on this, but I am more or less convinced. I admit to paying more attention to Halak seeing as I live in Virginia (played MTR in round one) and am from Philadelphia (played MTR in round three).
As a Habs fan Halak was great vs Pittsburgh but it wasn't near on the level vs Pittsburgh as it was vs Washington in game 5,6 and 7. It was just as much about Cammalleri and Gionta being scorching hot vs Pittsburgh. Habs played better, not on Pittsburgh's level but it seemed like beating Washington gave them some confidence. They were still over matched, don't get me wrong, just wasn't as bad.

Fleury was really bad in that series.

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