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Hodgson/Ennis as our top 2 centers next season would be reckless

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Old
04-19-2012, 02:30 PM
  #1
joshjull
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Hodgson/Ennis as our top 2 centers next season would be reckless

I've seen this idea put forth in more than a few threads with the likes of Stoll and Kelly as the 3rd line center. Frankly that would be a terrible idea.


You're going to ask two kids to carry our team? One that just finished his rookie season and another thats been a NHL center for a few months. Both of whom are completely unproven as top 6 centers. One could even argue Ennis is unproven at center, period. Then on top of that your giving them no cover or back up by adding a 3rd line center that can't play top 6 mintues. So its basically its sink or swim kids since we've got nothing else.

This is something a cash strapped team would do. A team with no money that needs to rely on its cheap youth to try and make up for its inability to spend on players.

This would be horrible for their development and reminds me a bit the situation we were in with Roy/Connolly after the captians left. You haad those two with Goose as the 3rd line center. We saw how much the team struggled in that situation. Why on earth would anyone think its makes senseo recreate that situation? With less proven players no less!

Based on his recent comments, Regeir knows this and will be out to acquire a top 6 center to be in the mix with these two. There is zero reason for a team with the resourses we have now to do something so reckless with the center postion.

Post lockout, Philly has been the ideal development situation for young centers. Courturier/Schenn have played behind Briere/Giroux or have been on the wing. Its enabled them to grow as players without having the presure of carrying a team. Their normal struggles as young players are not really an issue becaus of this. Before them Giroux had Briere/Richards/Carter ahead of him. When Richards/Carter broke into the league they had Forsberg/Handzus on the team and they had their breakout seasons when Briere joined the Flyers. We obviously can't recreate what the Flyers have in one offseason but its something to look to as a goal.

Depth at center is the key to long term success as well. It gives you so many options as a team. One of them being having valuable trade assets to rebuild the team when necessary. It also enables you to overcome a key injury, or even two, at center. When we have enough depth that a top 6 center is our 3rd line center or we have a good center playing wing. Then we'll be in good shape there (I stole part of that sentiment from Buffaloed).

Looking back at the struggles of this team after the co-captains left. When we were forced into Roy/Connolly as our top 6 centers and no other top 6 options on the roster or in the system. Seeing how handicapped we were by that, I have zero interest in choosing to self cripple our roster.


Last edited by joshjull: 04-19-2012 at 02:43 PM.
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Old
04-19-2012, 02:33 PM
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buffalowing88
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I've seen this idea put forth in more than a few threads with the likes of Stoll and Kelly as the 3rd line center. Frankly that would be a terrible idea.


You're going to ask two kids to carry your team? One that just finished his rookie season and another thats been a NHL center for a few months. Both of whom are completely unproven as top 6 centers. One could even argue Ennis is unproven at center, period. Then on top of that your giving them no cover or back up by adding a 3rd line center that can't play top 6 mintues. So its basically its sink or swim kids since we've got nothing else.

This is something a cash strapped team would do. A team with no money that needs to rely on its cheap youth to try and make up for its inability to spend on players.

This would be horrible for their development and slightly reminds me of the situation we were in with Roy/Connolly after the captians left. You haad those two with Goose as the 3rd line center. We saw how much the team struggled in that situation. Why opn earth would anyone think its makes sesne to recreate ithat situation? With less proven players no less!

Based on his recent comments, Regeir knows this and will be out to acquire a top 6 center to be in the mix with these two. There is zero reason for a team with the resourses we have now to do something so reckless with the center postion.

Post lockout, Philly has been the ideal development situation for young centers. Courturier/Schenn have played behind Briere/Giroux or have been on the wing. Its enabled them to grow as players without having the presure of carrying a team. Their normal struggles as young players are not really an issue becasue of this. Before them Giroux had Briere/Richards/Carter ahead of him. When Richards/Carter broke into the league they had Forsberg/Handzus on the team and they had their breakout seasons when Briere joined the Flyers. We obviously can't recreate what the Flyers have in one offseason but its something to look to as a goal.

Depth at center is the key to long term success as well. When we have enough dpeth that a top 6 center is our 3rd line center or we have a good center playing wing. Then we'll be in good shape there (I stole part of that sentiment from Buffaloed).

Looking back at the struggles this team after the co-captains. When we were forced into Roy/Connolly as our top 6 centers and no other top 6 options. Seeing how handicapped we were as a team by that. I have zero interest in choosing to self cripple our roster.
I think that pretty well sums it up. Ideally I'd like Hodgson to be the #2 center and Ennis to shift back to wing. My question for you is who exactly you think we could bring in to take the center role? I imagine it would have to involve a trade because we aren't exactly swimming in cap room and we have a number of attractive picks and prospects we could dangle as well as some expiring contracts.

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04-19-2012, 02:37 PM
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I would love to see them continue with the 1a, 1b, and 1c approach by upgrading over Roy.

The dream scenario for me would be trading for a guy like Getzlaf, Kesler, or J Staal and adding him to the mix.

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04-19-2012, 02:38 PM
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Also, I'm a bit of a homer for him but Brandon Dubinsky would be a great fit in my mind. I don't know what we'd have to give New York to get him but they've already got two good centers in Richards and Stepan so I think Dubinsky could be had for the right price. Stafford for him plus a 2nd rounder which we can turn around and package with Roy for something?

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04-19-2012, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buffalowing88 View Post
I think that pretty well sums it up. Ideally I'd like Hodgson to be the #2 center and Ennis to shift back to wing. My question for you is who exactly you think we could bring in to take the center role? I imagine it would have to involve a trade because we aren't exactly swimming in cap room and we have a number of attractive picks and prospects we could dangle as well as some expiring contracts.
You want to shift Ennis back to wing?

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04-19-2012, 02:43 PM
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I agree, but I also think it will cost too much to trade for a veteran top six center (especially one like Getzlaf that only has one more year under contract). I'd prefer trading up for Grigorenko or Galchenyuk, and simply holding onto Roy until the trade deadline. If the team thinks it's a real contender and Roy is playing well (healthy, contract year and all) then maybe even keeping him is worth it. Either way trading Roy at the deadline will provide the best return. The season after, Ennis and Hodsgon will have experience and the draftee will be ready to play.

I like that scenario the best, not for holding onto Roy necessarily, but because it costs the least in trading assets away and in cap space.

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04-19-2012, 02:46 PM
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This is exactly why we're going to keep Roy, and roll 3 lines

1a - Ennis
1b - Roy
1c - Hodgson

Put them in any order you want.

Darcy will work the phones, but I predict the only type of center we might add is a 4c like Goose.

Try not to get yourselves set up for disappointment.

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04-19-2012, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by buffalowing88 View Post
I think that pretty well sums it up. Ideally I'd like Hodgson to be the #2 center and Ennis to shift back to wing. My question for you is who exactly you think we could bring in to take the center role? I imagine it would have to involve a trade because we aren't exactly swimming in cap room and we have a number of attractive picks and prospects we could dangle as well as some expiring contracts.
seriously? yikes, that's a horrible idea

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04-19-2012, 02:49 PM
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Also, I'm a bit of a homer for him but Brandon Dubinsky would be a great fit in my mind. I don't know what we'd have to give New York to get him but they've already got two good centers in Richards and Stepan so I think Dubinsky could be had for the right price. Stafford for him plus a 2nd rounder which we can turn around and package with Roy for something?
I like the idea of Dubinsky or even Anisimov to come in and play as the 1c center.

All this talk of not wanting to go into the season with Hodgson and Ennis as the 1 and 2 is funny to me. Everyone wants Roy out but doesnt want Ennis and Hodgson to be the 1 2 punch without another top end center talent... I get it that JoshJull wants Getzlaf, Kopitar, Staal or any of the top Centers in the league. We all do but the truth is 99.9% chance we cant get any of them.

Ennis and Hodgson will be the 1a 1c centers next year.

If we trade Roy we are not gonna be able to get a center that is better then Hodgson or Ennis to be the true number 1.

The new center that joins this team is gonna be more of a veteran presence with defensive capability's. Not becuase we dont want to get a top guy but becuase thats all thats gonna be available.

Trade roy for a 1st and a prospect. Trade your 3 first round picks and what ever else to get Galchenyuk or Grigorenko. That is the only way I can see us getting a number 1 center on this team.

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04-19-2012, 02:51 PM
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I think it depends on your goals. If your goal is to get back into the playoffs next year come hell or high water, then you want another center. If you don't care about playoffs but want to try and build more long-term, I think you could get away with doing it for a year and seeing how they develop, depending on the plan: eg, is there a better crop of FA's to go for next summer? If so, maybe you set aims further in the future to try and get that championship-quality top 6 C when you have more options.

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04-19-2012, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
I think it depends on your goals. If your goal is to get back into the playoffs next year come hell or high water, then you want another center. If you don't care about playoffs but want to try and build more long-term, I think you could get away with doing it for a year and seeing how they develop, depending on the plan: eg, is there a better crop of FA's to go for next summer? If so, maybe you set aims further in the future to try and get that championship-quality top 6 C when you have more options.
Trying to make this about choosing winning next year over developing them is completely missing the point. Its also setting up a false choice. You don't throw kids to the wolves like that to develop them. Thats the point.

To have long term success in the NHL you need to develop centers and you need center depth. The best way to develop them is to NOT throw them to the wolves hoping they sink or swim. Its to set up a situation where they can stumble and know that the team isn't going to faulter when they do.

I also love how everyone is attributing things to me that I never posted. We don't have to add a #1 center for this to happen.

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04-19-2012, 03:00 PM
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seriously? yikes, that's a horrible idea
Longterm I dont think it is a horrible idea if we can get some bigger centers.

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04-19-2012, 03:02 PM
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People really want to go into next season with Hodgson and Ennis as the two two centers? Did I miss the memo where missing the playoffs became enjoyable or something? Maybe it was attached to a TPS report.

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04-19-2012, 03:05 PM
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You want to shift Ennis back to wing?
He also wanted to break up Ennis and Stafford by trading him.

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Originally Posted by buffalowing88 View Post
Also, I'm a bit of a homer for him but Brandon Dubinsky would be a great fit in my mind. I don't know what we'd have to give New York to get him but they've already got two good centers in Richards and Stepan so I think Dubinsky could be had for the right price. Stafford for him plus a 2nd rounder which we can turn around and package with Roy for something?
Nah, not interested in moving Stafford. He's a fair price for what he provides, and he has excellent chemistry with Ennis. I would like Dubinsky (or Anisimov) from the Rags, though.

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04-19-2012, 03:09 PM
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Longterm I dont think it is a horrible idea if we can get some bigger centers.
The reason that line is effective is because Ennis creates so much speed in the transition game. Why in the world would you want to remove that element? There are very few players in the NHL who can do what he does. Putting him at wing stymies the rush. Haven't we learned that by now?

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04-19-2012, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by tmack224 View Post
I like the idea of Dubinsky or even Anisimov to come in and play as the 1c center.

All this talk of not wanting to go into the season with Hodgson and Ennis as the 1 and 2 is funny to me. Everyone wants Roy out but doesnt want Ennis and Hodgson to be the 1 2 punch without another top end center talent...
Thats because you're someone thats clueless about the importance of centers. Hence your never ending trade ideas to add high priced wingers. Never mind the fact that NO CUP TEAM is built that way.

Quote:
I get it that JoshJull wants Getzlaf, Kopitar, Staal or any of the top Centers in the league. We all do but the truth is 99.9% chance we cant get any of them.

Ennis and Hodgson will be the 1a 1c centers next year.

If we trade Roy we are not gonna be able to get a center that is better then Hodgson or Ennis to be the true number 1.

The new center that joins this team is gonna be more of a veteran presence with defensive capability's. Not becuase we dont want to get a top guy but becuase thats all thats gonna be available.

Trade roy for a 1st and a prospect. Trade your 3 first round picks and what ever else to get Galchenyuk or Grigorenko. That is the only way I can see us getting a number 1 center on this team.


You are treat. How in the world did you come to this conclusion? At no point did I say anything about acquiring those players.

Maybe you didnt know that a top 6 center is not a #1 center or that there are over 60+ centers in the NHL with the capability of playing in the top 6.

I'm not at all talking about acquiring a #1 center. I'm talking about a top 6 center so we can have the 3 fairly equal lines we ended the season with. If that means keeping Roy, so be it.


Last edited by joshjull: 04-19-2012 at 03:15 PM.
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Old
04-19-2012, 03:22 PM
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Thats because you're someone thats clueless to the importance of centers. Hence your never ending trade ideas to add high priced wingers. Never mind the fact that NO CUP TEAM is built that way.





You are treat. How in the world did you come to this conclusion? At no point did I say anything about acquiring those players.

Maybe you didnt know that a top 6 center is not a #1 center or that there are over 60+ centers in the NHL with the capability of playing in the top 6.

I'm not at all talking about acquiring a #1 center. I'm talking about a top 6 center so we can have the 3 fairly equal lines we ended the season with. If that means keeping Roy, so be it.

Maybe I didnt get my point across as clear as I needed to. all we hear on here is about trading roy and getting a top 6 center. My point is that I dont think there are any centers out there better then Ennis or Hodgson that are available in trade.

Read my 5th paragraph down again...

You want a top 6 center right? Name someone that would fit that description that you think would be available to trade for... They dont grow on trees and almost never get traded. Dont bring up carter and richards that was something completely different considering before the trade people knew that Phillys front office wasnt happy with them.

Next season either we stick with Ennis, Hodgson, Roy down the middle which is what I believe will happen or we trade roy for picks and try to package picks and prospects for a top 5 pick.

The reason I believe we should get wingers like Bobby Ryan and try to Sign Parise is beucase Ennis and Hodgson do show the ability to play top line minutes in this league and can be number 1 and 1b centers for us as long as you surround them with veteran talent.

Just becuase they are young centers doesnt mean they are gonna fail. Yes if they had crappy wingers playing with them then they would but you put allstars next to them and they wil be able to grown and become the top centers that we need.

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04-19-2012, 03:28 PM
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You want to shift Ennis back to wing?
This. No way in hell he should be switched to wing.

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04-19-2012, 03:31 PM
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Ennis and hodgsen will be much better than roy and connolly were, let the kids play

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04-19-2012, 03:38 PM
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Not sure I'd call it reckless. Maybe ill advised.

It's a tough call. Roy being gone would be great for the team I think, but I agree it leaves a void for the top center. I think if you could swing a deal for a decent veteran guy to play with that top line who gives you 80% of Roy's point production for a year or two, that's a decent option as opposed to dumping all your assets to trade for that huge name guy.

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04-19-2012, 03:38 PM
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I'm more sold on Ennis as a top center than Cody. The FES line kicked so much ass, but that's a 2nd line. The problem is that Ennis and Cody are both 2nd line centers in a top 6. I don't think Cody is quite ready to be the 1C ahead of Ennis.

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04-19-2012, 03:43 PM
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Not sure I'd call it reckless. Maybe ill advised.

It's a tough call. Roy being gone would be great for the team I think, but I agree it leaves a void for the top center. I think if you could swing a deal for a decent veteran guy to play with that top line who gives you 80% of Roy's point production for a year or two, that's a decent option as opposed to dumping all your assets to trade for that huge name guy.
Agreed with the bolded. It would definitely be ideal to add another top guy into the mix but it wouldn't be the end of the world if we didn't and it wouldn't necessarily be terrible for their developments if they were the clear top two.

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04-19-2012, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I've seen this idea put forth in more than a few threads with the likes of Stoll and Kelly as the 3rd line center. Frankly that would be a terrible idea.
For me, it's not about choosing to move forward that way... it's being forced to move forward that way because:
1. Roy must be traded
2. I don't see any top 6 centers available right now (spare me the richards, carter trade examples

Quote:
You're going to ask two kids to carry our team? One that just finished his rookie season and another thats been a NHL center for a few months. Both of whom are completely unproven as top 6 centers. One could even argue Ennis is unproven at center, period. Then on top of that your giving them no cover or back up by adding a 3rd line center that can't play top 6 mintues. So its basically its sink or swim kids since we've got nothing else.
I'm going to ask these two kids to develop

Quote:
This is something a cash strapped team would do. A team with no money that needs to rely on its cheap youth to try and make up for its inability to spend on players.
I'm open to any ideas to add better players ahead of them... I am NOT open to retaining Derek Roy in the position.

Quote:
This would be horrible for their development and reminds me a bit the situation we were in with Roy/Connolly after the captians left. You haad those two with Goose as the 3rd line center. We saw how much the team struggled in that situation. Why on earth would anyone think its makes senseo recreate that situation? With less proven players no less!
Of course, I see the opposite... I see Roy and Connolly as players who never developed because they enjoyed playing behind the top end talent.

Maybe developing them in the top role will be better for the new guys. It wasn't so bad for Jon Toews who went on a run in his 2nd year, and won a cup in his 3rd.


Quote:
Based on his recent comments, Regeir knows this and will be out to acquire a top 6 center to be in the mix with these two. There is zero reason for a team with the resourses we have now to do something so reckless with the center postion.
I would LOVE to acquire a top 6 center... nobody here is against that.

For the record, last year Reiger went out to acquire a top 6 center, and we ended up with Ville Leino.

Quote:
Post lockout, Philly has been the ideal development situation for young centers. Courturier/Schenn have played behind Briere/Giroux or have been on the wing. Its enabled them to grow as players without having the presure of carrying a team. Their normal struggles as young players are not really an issue becaus of this. Before them Giroux had Briere/Richards/Carter ahead of him. When Richards/Carter broke into the league they had Forsberg/Handzus on the team and they had their breakout seasons when Briere joined the Flyers. We obviously can't recreate what the Flyers have in one offseason but its something to look to as a goal.
Philly is being trotted out as the perfect example of ANY hockey argument anyone wants to make.


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Depth at center is the key to long term success as well. It gives you so many options as a team. One of them being having valuable trade assets to rebuild the team when necessary. It also enables you to overcome a key injury, or even two, at center. When we have enough depth that a top 6 center is our 3rd line center or we have a good center playing wing. Then we'll be in good shape there (I stole part of that sentiment from Buffaloed).
I completely agree.

I guess I just think we are going into a building a phase... not a "contend for the cup next year" phase

Quote:
Looking back at the struggles of this team after the co-captains left. When we were forced into Roy/Connolly as our top 6 centers and no other top 6 options on the roster or in the system. Seeing how handicapped we were by that, I have zero interest in choosing to self cripple our roster.
I have interest in re-building around a new young core of players. trying to fit a model for success TODAY, is not really something that interests me. That kind of offseason determination leads to :
a.) keeping Derek Roy
b.) Signing Ville Leino

Both of those actions were more crippling to the franchise IMO

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04-19-2012, 03:52 PM
  #24
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I really dont want to see this as the only move we make but:

Vanek-Hodgson-Pomminville
Foligno-Ennis-Stafford
Leino-UFA-Tropp

as long as it means we traded Roy for picks and then picks and prospects for a top 5 pick aquiring Galchenyuk or Grigorenko.

I know I'm prolly in the minority but if we could instead trade Vanek + for a pick that will allow us to draft Grigorenko/Galchenyuk, trade Roy for Dubinsky or Anisimov and Sign Parise I would be happy. Yes its a lot of what if considering if we cant sign Parise it will leave a big hole.

Parise-Galchenyuk/Grigorenko-Pomminville
Foligno-Ennis-Stafford
Leino-Hodgson-Dubinsky/Anisimov

or even swith Hodgson to the top line if the rookie isnt ready and let Dubinsky or Anisimov play the 3rd center role till they are.

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04-19-2012, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by omglolnub View Post
I'm more sold on Ennis as a top center than Cody. The FES line kicked so much ass, but that's a 2nd line. The problem is that Ennis and Cody are both 2nd line centers in a top 6. I don't think Cody is quite ready to be the 1C ahead of Ennis.
This is why you need to keep Roy (or someone like that). If you roll 3 legit scoring lines, you create matchup problems for the other team. If you don't have a truly dominant first line, it's a pretty good strategy. However, if you only roll 2 scoring lines, you are putting much more pressure on Ennis and Hodgson - maybe too much pressure. Having that 3rd scoring line improves all 3 lines and you have less need for an elite 1C.

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