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Old
04-17-2012, 06:38 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by GLaDOS View Post
You can also argue Gio played on the top unit with Tanguay for more of the season as well. Gio is better than Bouw offensively but I'm saying JBo isn't totally useless on the PP.
Huh? J-Bo played with Tanguay on the #1 unit for like 75% of the year. It wasn't until the later on in the season when The Anton came on, that him and Gio anchored the #1 unit and J-Bo got demoted to the #2.

Bouwmeester is IMO more useless on the PP then TKO.

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Old
04-17-2012, 07:09 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by CoRD View Post
Huh? J-Bo played with Tanguay on the #1 unit for like 75% of the year. It wasn't until the later on in the season when The Anton came on, that him and Gio anchored the #1 unit and J-Bo got demoted to the #2.

Bouwmeester is IMO more useless on the PP then TKO.
what the **** are you talking about? did you even watch the games? the only time Bouwmeester was on the #1 PP unit was while Giordano was hurt.

And to add the argument. Bouwmeester actually played 26 minutes less on the PP than Giordano did, with the lesser PP unit and still got the same number of PP points.

If people want to look at a big reason Bouwmeester hasn't produced in Calgary just look at the PP. In his last 3 years in Florida Bouwmeester played a total of 922:26 and had 45 points on the PP. In a Flames uniform in 3 years he has played 443:25 and had 27 points on the PP.

How on earth can a defenseman be expected to produce at similar levels to their past if they see their PP time cut more than in half?

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04-17-2012, 07:26 PM
  #28
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The original proposal is a no go for me too. It reminds me of the Phaneuf deal whereby we're trading quality for quantity. Having only 1 legit top four defensemen on this team going forward would set us back further.

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04-17-2012, 07:35 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
The original proposal is a no go for me too. It reminds me of the Phaneuf deal whereby we're trading quality for quantity. Having only 1 legit top four defensemen on this team going forward would set us back further.
But said dman (Jbo) doesn't work well in Calgary plus he will be gone by the time the Flames are back in contention. Ouellet and Pulkkinen give the Flames an offensive dman that isn't horrible in the back end and is capable of going pro at age 19. PPG playoffs and regular season as a dman too. He is developing quite nicely and has the potential to be a top pairing. Pulkkinen has so much raw skill that I would love to see him here because the Flames need someone like him in the system. A very good puckhandler with great sniping ability. Obviously he is more of a boom/bust player.

I'm not sure how this is the same as getting Ian White, Hagman, Stajan, Mayers, all of which were not "prospects" when traded with more upside.

Something to also consider, the Red Wings don't sign prospects early, they let them over develop in the farm system. Well Ouellet is good enough to make the Wings sign him early (he still had one year left before needing to be signed), so thats also an indicator I think he makes the jump to pro quite soon.

Seeing as I follow/watch both teams, I thought it was a fair trade and fills needs on both sides of the coin. The idea behind selling Jbo now is to get a good return in prospects AND help us get a better draft pick next year.

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04-17-2012, 07:44 PM
  #30
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Bouwmeester didn't work under the old coach. Who knows how he'll look under the new one.

Bouwmeester's trade value is probably at an all time low given his contract and his stats over the last three years. Moving him now would be an example of terrible asset management, i.e. buy high, sell low. Wait a year and see how he performs in a different system. If he rebounds, well great. You can get a much higher return or even re-sign since he's now an asset. If not, well, his trade value won't be significantly lower.

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04-17-2012, 07:54 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by tfong View Post
But said dman (Jbo) doesn't work well in Calgary plus he will be gone by the time the Flames are back in contention. Ouellet and Pulkkinen give the Flames an offensive dman that isn't horrible in the back end and is capable of going pro at age 19. PPG playoffs and regular season as a dman too. He is developing quite nicely and has the potential to be a top pairing. Pulkkinen has so much raw skill that I would love to see him here because the Flames need someone like him in the system. A very good puckhandler with great sniping ability. Obviously he is more of a boom/bust player.

I'm not sure how this is the same as getting Ian White, Hagman, Stajan, Mayers, all of which were not "prospects" when traded with more upside.

Something to also consider, the Red Wings don't sign prospects early, they let them over develop in the farm system. Well Ouellet is good enough to make the Wings sign him early (he still had one year left before needing to be signed), so thats also an indicator I think he makes the jump to pro quite soon.

Seeing as I follow/watch both teams, I thought it was a fair trade and fills needs on both sides of the coin. The idea behind selling Jbo now is to get a good return in prospects AND help us get a better draft pick next year.
I like how you say follow/watch and not cheer/fan of.... No offense tfong, but I'm not looking for a "fair trade", I'd much prefer a lopsided one that puts your Wings in the hole

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04-17-2012, 08:17 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Svensational View Post
If only Jbouw would have a high trade value like he was supposed to... Our "rebuild" would be Speed100000000X. If only he was same value as Weber, Suter.....
If so, we wouldn't be discussing trading him, we'd be watching the Flames in the playoffs.

tfong: no matter how many times you try to justify it, this is a quality for quantity trade like MarkGio said - and terrible for Calgary

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04-17-2012, 08:41 PM
  #33
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But said dman (Jbo) doesn't work well in Calgary
he didn't work well under Brent Sutter

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04-17-2012, 09:02 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
I like how you say follow/watch and not cheer/fan of.... No offense tfong, but I'm not looking for a "fair trade", I'd much prefer a lopsided one that puts your Wings in the hole
Haha fair enough.

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Old
04-17-2012, 11:00 PM
  #35
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I doubt there is a market for Jbo unless someone overlooks his entire career of not performing . Keep him and try to move him if and when a coach can raise his compete level to the point he is of value to someone then move him QUICK.

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04-17-2012, 11:03 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by mjw22 View Post
I doubt there is a market for Jbo unless someone overlooks his entire career of not performing . Keep him and try to move him if and when a coach can raise his compete level to the point he is of value to someone then move him QUICK.
Seems like you missed a few years yourself.

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04-17-2012, 11:14 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Seems like you missed a few years yourself.
Name a team in his entire career that won anything other than WJC. Maybe a coincidence Medicine Hat Florida Calgary bad team or bad player ?

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04-20-2012, 04:44 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by mjw22 View Post
Name a team in his entire career that won anything other than WJC. Maybe a coincidence Medicine Hat Florida Calgary bad team or bad player ?
You're wasting your breath. People on these boards continue to laud Bouwmeester despite his horrific stats and poor compete level. There is a reason so many former players love to play against him. TOI is the only stat that counts apparently. Even when you do nothing with loads of ice time. Bouwmeester is not even comparable to Giordano. People say he plays against top lines, but Giordano's corsi is higher so it's flat out not true. We were a consistent playoff team before JBo and haven't made it since his arrival. There are other factors in that, but having almost 7 million tied up in a borderline #2 defenseman on a cap team is a huge part of it.

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04-20-2012, 08:13 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by mjw22 View Post
Name a team in his entire career that won anything other than WJC. Maybe a coincidence Medicine Hat Florida Calgary bad team or bad player ?
How can you use team success to justify how good a player is? He put up great numbers in Florida as an offensive defenseman of course his number look like **** as a defensive defenseman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
You're wasting your breath. People on these boards continue to laud Bouwmeester despite his horrific stats and poor compete level. There is a reason so many former players love to play against him. TOI is the only stat that counts apparently. Even when you do nothing with loads of ice time. Bouwmeester is not even comparable to Giordano. People say he plays against top lines, but Giordano's corsi is higher so it's flat out not true. We were a consistent playoff team before JBo and haven't made it since his arrival. There are other factors in that, but having almost 7 million tied up in a borderline #2 defenseman on a cap team is a huge part of it.
Using Corsi alone is moronic, it is a +- stat unless you believe Bertuzzi is the 17th best player in the league.

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04-21-2012, 01:49 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
How can you use team success to justify how good a player is? He put up great numbers in Florida as an offensive defenseman of course his number look like **** as a defensive defenseman.



Using Corsi alone is moronic, it is a +- stat unless you believe Bertuzzi is the 17th best player in the league.
I'm not using Corsi alone, just using it to reference the strength of competition which JBo supporters constantly cite as a reason he's better than Giordano. Gio scores more, hits more, has a better +/-, plays tougher, passes better and shows passion. See? I use a lot more than just the corsi stat. Just pointing out that Giordano kicks JBo's ass there, just like he does in every other facet of the game other than the prettiest stride competition.

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04-21-2012, 01:21 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
I'm not using Corsi alone, just using it to reference the strength of competition which JBo supporters constantly cite as a reason he's better than Giordano. Gio scores more, hits more, has a better +/-, plays tougher, passes better and shows passion. See? I use a lot more than just the corsi stat. Just pointing out that Giordano kicks JBo's ass there, just like he does in every other facet of the game other than the prettiest stride competition.
Corsi assumes that the higher the +- the better the opposition if you think Gio plays against top lines you are crazy. Passion is a stupid argument because Gio's passion leads Gio to take bad penalties Jbo doesn't so thats a plus for him and how do you know Jbo isn't passionate? Jbo is a far better offensive defense man when used properly I can't believe people blame him for misusing him. It would be like using Regehr as an offensive defense man and blaiming him for sucking.

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04-21-2012, 02:16 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Corsi assumes that the higher the +- the better the opposition if you think Gio plays against top lines you are crazy. Passion is a stupid argument because Gio's passion leads Gio to take bad penalties Jbo doesn't so thats a plus for him and how do you know Jbo isn't passionate? Jbo is a far better offensive defense man when used properly I can't believe people blame him for misusing him. It would be like using Regehr as an offensive defense man and blaiming him for sucking.
The guy gets just as much PP time as any other D. Where are his offensive skills there?

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04-21-2012, 02:25 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by CoRD View Post
The guy gets just as much PP time as any other D. Where are his offensive skills there?
No he doesn't he gets a minute less than Gio and plays on the second second pp where there is much less skill. Again he is used at the point as a shooting defenseman this isn't his strength his strength is passing in the middle of a box formation like what Florida did how can you blame a player for his coach misusing him? He has done his best to be the defenseman Sutter wanted but he simple isn't that defenseman.

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04-21-2012, 02:34 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
No he doesn't he gets a minute less than Gio and plays on the second second pp where there is much less skill. Again he is used at the point as a shooting defenseman this isn't his strength his strength is passing in the middle of a box formation like what Florida did how can you blame a player for his coach misusing him? He has done his best to be the defenseman Sutter wanted but he simple isn't that defenseman.
Brodie pinches. Gio pinches. I have a hard time believing it was Sutter holding him back 100%. He simply just looks unconfident out there. I give him one more year with a new coach to get back to his 10-12 goal range. If he fails then this loser needs to be shipped outta town for a used hockey bag.

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04-21-2012, 02:36 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by CoRD View Post
Brodie pinches. Gio pinches. I have a hard time believing it was Sutter holding him back 100%. He simply just looks unconfident out there. I give him one more year with a new coach to get back to his 10-12 goal range. If he fails then this loser needs to be shipped outta town for a used hockey bag.
Jbo also pinches but he clearly wasn't doing it as much as the others and I think this has alot to do with the fact that he was against the top lines. Also how does him not pinching as much make him a made defenseman like some of you are convinced.

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Old
04-21-2012, 02:57 PM
  #46
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You put Bouw on Detroits puck possession and skilled passing team, and I guarantee he flourishes.

Edit: God damnit Gleninator, I go away for a week or two, and all of a sudden you're way ahead of me in post count! I still remember when you were in your hundreds! What the hell man!


Last edited by Flames Fanatic: 04-21-2012 at 02:58 PM. Reason: Ranting
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Old
04-21-2012, 03:05 PM
  #47
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He's suddenly miles ahead of me....

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Old
04-21-2012, 03:18 PM
  #48
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How does he find the time for 20+ posts a day?

Anyways, I don't expect some sort of offensive explosion if you put him with a new coach. At the very least I hope he'll be able to become more active in the offense.

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04-21-2012, 03:43 PM
  #49
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I finished my classes so all I do is watch hockey and post on the boards as my girlfriend is at work most of the day.

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04-22-2012, 11:00 PM
  #50
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I finished my classes so all I do is watch hockey and post on the boards as my girlfriend is at work most of the day.
I say it's cuz your responding to my posts and I usually get in quite a few posts a day

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