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Want to know where we screwed up with Marleau?

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Old
04-18-2012, 11:53 PM
  #26
Pinkfloyd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murdock1116 View Post
I agree that you don't need to be on the score sheet to "contribute."

But lets face it, Marleau is NOT playing well. He's not being a tenacious forechecker which he should be with his skill set. And he's not doing well on the PK either. Entire PK is sucking it up.

The bottom line is that he is floating and he doesn't look like he is putting much effort into this series. He really needs to step up his play.
In actuality, the problems with the PK mostly fall on the d-men. Twice, the d-men were caught on the same side of the ice which is a huge no-no. Pavs has also not been terribly good at getting into the shooting lanes either. The Blues have been attacking Pavs' side of the ice for the most part because their blue line mobility is better than Pavs' and they're able to open shooting lanes and take advantage of the 3 on 2 down low especially when the d-men are either drifting too high or playing the same side of the ice.

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Old
04-19-2012, 12:36 AM
  #27
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100% agree.

I just miss Michalek, and I miss Bernier being good. That line would be killer today.

I think that Havlat and Marleau will be effective together. But next season I'd like to set up the lines better, stick Couture on those two's wing, split up Pavs and JT and run three scoring lines, etc. I'm kinda looking forward to the off-season, to be honest.
Man this post is exactly what i was thinking at work the whole day.

Pavs is far from a third line center, but so is jordan staal. I think we need to utilize pavs in a similar way; I feel their games are pretty similar...

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04-19-2012, 12:39 AM
  #28
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Everyone's always on Patty, but even if he had a goal in every game (they could have been the 3 greatest goals ever), would it even have mattered? Nemo's giving up 3 goals a game right now (yeah, you can blame some of that on the PK). His "goals" might have made a difference in game 1, but we'd still be down 2-1 in the series (the last game was over way before those last two Sharks goals).

Pavs and Couture haven't really picked up the scoring slack during the playoffs (they both scored 30+ during the regular season), but no one talks about that.

Patty is always going to be the whipping boy when something goes wrong because he's the quiet one

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04-19-2012, 12:45 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkie1290 View Post
Everyone's always on Patty, but even if he had a goal in every game (they could have been the 3 greatest goals ever), would it even have mattered? Nemo's giving up 3 goals a game right now (yeah, you can blame some of that on the PK). His "goals" might have made a difference in game 1, but we'd still be down 2-1 in the series (the last game was over way before those last two Sharks goals).

Pavs and Couture haven't really picked up the scoring slack during the playoffs (they both scored 30+ during the regular season), but no one talks about that.

Patty is always going to be the whipping boy when something goes wrong because he's the quiet one making 7mil
fixed.

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04-19-2012, 12:47 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
You can count on one hand how many times the puck has been put on or near Marleau's stick in a scoring area these three games.
I see it differently. Thornton passes it to whoever is in a better scoring position, and Pavelski is in a better scoring position most of the time (because Marleau is along the boards for support). You can't argue that Marleau was good this series either, points or no points. He was terrible in Game 1, average in Game 2, and pretty good in Game 3. However, at 6.9 million, he has to be better than average. Simply being good defensively isn't good enough.
And I don't really buy Thornton's tunnel vision passing. The tunnel vision didn't affect his point totals in 08-09 when he was with Setoguchi, or in the first half of 09-10 when the Burger line was the most productive line in the NHL.

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Originally Posted by Sharkie1290 View Post
Everyone's always on Patty, but even if he had a goal in every game (they could have been the 3 greatest goals ever), would it even have mattered? Nemo's giving up 3 goals a game right now (yeah, you can blame some of that on the PK). His "goals" might have made a difference in game 1, but we'd still be down 2-1 in the series (the last game was over way before those last two Sharks goals).

Pavs and Couture haven't really picked up the scoring slack during the playoffs (they both scored 30+ during the regular season), but no one talks about that.

Patty is always going to be the whipping boy when something goes wrong because he's the quiet one
That's an extremely simplistic way of looking at things. You can't just add a goal and say, oh they would've lost 1-3 instead of 0-3. Momentum shifts when a goal is scored and the whole game is different. Not to mention you could blame all of that on the PK. Niemi has been solid this series.

And Marleau isn't the whipping boy because he's the quiet one, he's the whipping boy because he makes more than Pavelski or Couture.

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04-19-2012, 12:53 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkie1290 View Post
Everyone's always on Patty, but even if he had a goal in every game (they could have been the 3 greatest goals ever), would it even have mattered? Nemo's giving up 3 goals a game right now (yeah, you can blame some of that on the PK). His "goals" might have made a difference in game 1, but we'd still be down 2-1 in the series (the last game was over way before those last two Sharks goals).

Pavs and Couture haven't really picked up the scoring slack during the playoffs (they both scored 30+ during the regular season), but no one talks about that.

Patty is always going to be the whipping boy when something goes wrong because he's the quiet one
If Marleau had a goal in each game, maybe the results of the games would be different. If you just take the final scores and add a goal to it, of course it isnt gonna make a difference. But if its actually scored in game, it might have made a difference. I've also been talking about Pavelski not doing anything offensively. Nobody really talks about Couture or Clowe because they are 2nd line players and they have contributed in game 1. Marleau and Pavelski? They are supposed to be the big boys, 1st liners, but they havent contributed much of anything offensively. Why pay them 6.9m and 4m if they're gonna play like 3rd/4th liners? If thats the case, why dont they just save that money by getting real 3rd/4th liners and use the extra money on somebody who can actually get the job done.

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04-19-2012, 01:08 AM
  #32
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Biggest mistake? DW giving him a NMC with 6.9 million. If he wanted the NMC he should have taken a discount. If he wanted the money he shouldn't get the NMC.

DW knows what kind of player Marleau is yet he still gave him the dough and the security. You don't give out that kind of contract to a player like Marleau who is known to go invisible.

Should have either given him the 6.9 without the NMC so that he would have more motivation to play at a higher level or he'd be dangled as tradebait, or you give him the NMC and he takes a lower salary so as not to hurt the team when he does go invisible. If Marleau was making 5-6 million, I don't think he would have half as many complaints as he does right now.

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04-19-2012, 01:12 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
That's an extremely simplistic way of looking at things. You can't just add a goal and say, oh they would've lost 1-3 instead of 0-3. Momentum shifts when a goal is scored and the whole game is different. Not to mention you could blame all of that on the PK. Niemi has been solid this series.

And Marleau isn't the whipping boy because he's the quiet one, he's the whipping boy because he makes more than Pavelski or Couture.
True, momentum can change a whole game, but watching game 3, I don't think it would have mattered. After that first period, they were completely outplayed. It was a frustrating game to watch.

I guess i'm just tired of seeing these Patty threads. They pop up every damn year.

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04-19-2012, 01:21 AM
  #34
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It doesn't excuse his lack of production, but this series is the most physical I've ever seen Marleau play.

Playing center will help him.

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04-19-2012, 01:33 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
I see it differently. Thornton passes it to whoever is in a better scoring position, and Pavelski is in a better scoring position most of the time (because Marleau is along the boards for support). You can't argue that Marleau was good this series either, points or no points. He was terrible in Game 1, average in Game 2, and pretty good in Game 3. However, at 6.9 million, he has to be better than average. Simply being good defensively isn't good enough.
And I don't really buy Thornton's tunnel vision passing. The tunnel vision didn't affect his point totals in 08-09 when he was with Setoguchi, or in the first half of 09-10 when the Burger line was the most productive line in the NHL.
Thornton is passing it to the man in the better scoring position. Pavs is in those positions because of Marleau taking the heat in front. That's the entire reason why he's not scoring. They don't transition at all, which the line with Setoguchi could do. The Burger line had roughly the same thing going for it but Heater played the decoy role more than Pavs has been doing. I disagree with your position on Marleau. He's been good for what they've been having him do. He is playing a square peg for a round hole thus far. He was not terrible in game 1 but I agree that he's gotten better as the series has gone along. As for the Thornton point totals, that's not relevant now and it never has when it comes to the playoffs. To me, they've simply used Marleau poorly thus far in this series and hopefully with the new line changes, that I don't completely agree with, the production comes around because the effort is there.

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Originally Posted by Chubbs View Post
Biggest mistake? DW giving him a NMC with 6.9 million. If he wanted the NMC he should have taken a discount. If he wanted the money he shouldn't get the NMC.

DW knows what kind of player Marleau is yet he still gave him the dough and the security. You don't give out that kind of contract to a player like Marleau who is known to go invisible.

Should have either given him the 6.9 without the NMC so that he would have more motivation to play at a higher level or he'd be dangled as tradebait, or you give him the NMC and he takes a lower salary so as not to hurt the team when he does go invisible. If Marleau was making 5-6 million, I don't think he would have half as many complaints as he does right now.
6.9 mil was a discount. The man is a 7.5 mil player on the open market with the clause on the open market especially coming off that season. The whole motivation argument is ridiculous and a slippery slope. You don't give security to that kind of player because he conceivably is lacking motivation (hogwash). Then when you dangle him out there on the trade market, he grows concern over being dealt and his play suffers due to it like some people alluded to in 2007-08 during his worst year.

I sincerely doubt that the complaining would be any less at 5 or 6 mil. People were down his throat after the Ducks series making 6.3 mil. People were down his throat after 2007 when he was only making just north of four million. Money is not the reason people criticize him. Money is just something they add to it to pile it on.

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04-19-2012, 02:25 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
6.9 mil was a discount. The man is a 7.5 mil player on the open market with the clause on the open market especially coming off that season. The whole motivation argument is ridiculous and a slippery slope. You don't give security to that kind of player because he conceivably is lacking motivation (hogwash). Then when you dangle him out there on the trade market, he grows concern over being dealt and his play suffers due to it like some people alluded to in 2007-08 during his worst year.

I sincerely doubt that the complaining would be any less at 5 or 6 mil. People were down his throat after the Ducks series making 6.3 mil. People were down his throat after 2007 when he was only making just north of four million. Money is not the reason people criticize him. Money is just something they add to it to pile it on.
UFAs always get overpaid, and according to you he only took a 600k discount. Big whoop-dee-doo. It's unfair to cite his UFA potential salary because those would be offered by non-playoff teams who have tons of spare money looking to sign a big name player. Other SC contending teams would not have that kind of money to throw around, especially back then. Look at the top players on the other competitive teams and how much they took to stay at home and tell me with a straight face that Marleau took a hit to the wallet to stay. Most if not all outproduced him and many make less. Fact is Marleau makes as much as a franchise player and he hasn't lived up to it.

A team is built around a salary cap and his play is not warranting his pay, thus he's hurting the team and its chances. The numbers say he didn't take a discount, and if he did it was a marginal one at best. He's getting paid to be a 1st line producer yet he's playing like a complimentary piece. 6.9 million is big time money, and it's hard to rationalize that amount when he didn't even break 70 points this year and hasn't produced in the post season yet.

If he wanted to stay on the team he should have taken a bigger discount or he shouldn't have gotten a NMC. His family lives here and he likes the city and the team, so it wouldn't have been hard for DW to strongarm him a bit. If he wanted the NMC that badly then he definitely would have taken less.

And motivation has everything to do with it. You cite his worst year as a counter example, but he had a NTC then and his play suffered mostly because he was at odds with the coach. His poor play might have been added to due to trade rumors but that most definitely wasn't the main issue. Marleau's best season? Contract year. Why? Because he had something to play for (that and the Olympics). That's an example of how it's been shown that he can play better when he has something to prove. Giving him the big money and a NMC takes all that pressure off. You can get away with it with some types of players but Marleau isn't that type.

People criticize him because he goes invisible and doesn't play up to his contract, which has everything to do with money. Again, if he was paid on the same payroll as say Havlat, he wouldn't get nearly as much hate going his way.


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04-19-2012, 04:38 AM
  #37
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I'll admit it. I am pretty much over Patrick Marleau at this point as well. As much as I've loved and hated him over the years, I am ready to move on. I went ahead and traded him for Milan Lucic in NHL12 and am not looking back.

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04-19-2012, 04:50 AM
  #38
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The Sharks screwed up when they took Marleau 2nd instead of Marian Hossa? Man, the top of that '97 draft was filled with HF's most maligned. Thornton, Luongo, Marleau, Jokinen...

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04-19-2012, 05:54 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Sharkie1290 View Post
Everyone's always on Patty, but even if he had a goal in every game (they could have been the 3 greatest goals ever), would it even have mattered? Nemo's giving up 3 goals a game right now (yeah, you can blame some of that on the PK). His "goals" might have made a difference in game 1, but we'd still be down 2-1 in the series (the last game was over way before those last two Sharks goals).

Pavs and Couture haven't really picked up the scoring slack during the playoffs (they both scored 30+ during the regular season), but no one talks about that.

Patty is always going to be the whipping boy when something goes wrong because he's the quiet one
Heatley is gone and Niemi is performing so Patty is next in line.

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04-19-2012, 06:45 AM
  #40
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UFAs always get overpaid, and according to you he only took a 600k discount. Big whoop-dee-doo. It's unfair to cite his UFA potential salary because those would be offered by non-playoff teams who have tons of spare money looking to sign a big name player. Other SC contending teams would not have that kind of money to throw around, especially back then. Look at the top players on the other competitive teams and how much they took to stay at home and tell me with a straight face that Marleau took a hit to the wallet to stay. Most if not all outproduced him and many make less. Fact is Marleau makes as much as a franchise player and he hasn't lived up to it.

A team is built around a salary cap and his play is not warranting his pay, thus he's hurting the team and its chances. The numbers say he didn't take a discount, and if he did it was a marginal one at best. He's getting paid to be a 1st line producer yet he's playing like a complimentary piece. 6.9 million is big time money, and it's hard to rationalize that amount when he didn't even break 70 points this year and hasn't produced in the post season yet.

If he wanted to stay on the team he should have taken a bigger discount or he shouldn't have gotten a NMC. His family lives here and he likes the city and the team, so it wouldn't have been hard for DW to strongarm him a bit. If he wanted the NMC that badly then he definitely would have taken less.

And motivation has everything to do with it. You cite his worst year as a counter example, but he had a NTC then and his play suffered mostly because he was at odds with the coach. His poor play might have been added to due to trade rumors but that most definitely wasn't the main issue. Marleau's best season? Contract year. Why? Because he had something to play for (that and the Olympics). That's an example of how it's been shown that he can play better when he has something to prove. Giving him the big money and a NMC takes all that pressure off. You can get away with it with some types of players but Marleau isn't that type.

People criticize him because he goes invisible and doesn't play up to his contract, which has everything to do with money. Again, if he was paid on the same payroll as say Havlat, he wouldn't get nearly as much hate going his way.
That 500k equates to 2 million dollars over the life of the deal and he would've had the clause with it if he took the 7.5 mil and went elsewhere. The Rangers who are now contenders would have had the room for him at the time likely would have been interested. Either way, all that doesn't really matter. You're simply wrong if you think contending teams wouldn't have thrown that money at a guy that just came off of a 40+ goal scoring season.

And in actuality, during the worst season of his career, he did NOT have a clause in his contract. You want to talk about rationalizing the money dished out but I don't hear you talking about Joe Thornton who is paid the same, can't even crack 20 goals, and didn't produce crap until the third game was essentially over. You're conveniently leaving things out just because you want to pile on. Where was the pressure last year when he scored 37 goals? Where was the pressure in 2008-09 when he scored 38 goals? Quite frankly, your argument is full of crap but when people go into a frenzy over the playoffs, it's hard for them to be rational about it and you certainly aren't here.

I've already shown why the whole 'if he was paid less' thing is wrong. He's already gone through the 'paid less' part and was still heavily criticized for many different things. It makes no difference here.

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04-19-2012, 12:57 PM
  #41
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Marleau is our Franzen, to use the usual Detroit comparisons. He either doesn't exist or he contributes on half the goals in a series.

Neither team is going near the Stanley Cup as long as one of their 3 best forwards disappears for long periods of time.

Detroit's two trips to the finals?

2008- 13 goals, 5 assists in 18 games
2009- 12 goals 11 assists in 23 games

He's got 13 goals in the other 52 playoff games, which includes his 4 goals vs. San Jose in game 4 in 2010.

That's what we need out of Marleau. Not doing the little things or being a decoy. If he's not capable of doing that, it's probably time to shut the window on this version of the Sharks.


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04-19-2012, 02:02 PM
  #42
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DW and TMac love Marleau. He's not going anywhere. Not that he should....

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04-19-2012, 02:09 PM
  #43
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DW and TMac love Marleau. He's not going anywhere. Not that he should....
Kind of their utility guy to fill whatever role is needed.

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04-19-2012, 02:14 PM
  #44
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I'd rather see Pavs run his own line...
That's my perspective too. Marleau isn't as good at seeing the ice as Pavs. Pav's also makes his line better.

But to the thread, I don't believe the C matters. Its effort and whats between his ears. His best year was probably when he had the letter on his chest taken off. He had something to prove and he had a very focused year.

But he is who he is - with or without a letter. Some games he is dominant and some he just wanders. When he is motivated, he is a dynamic player. Finding that switch has been a problem for every coach who has coached him at the NHL level. Lets hope he finds that motivation tonight.

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04-19-2012, 04:24 PM
  #45
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I feel like Marleau has a wrist injury, which would explain why he doesn't want the puck on his stick under any circumstances.

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04-19-2012, 04:43 PM
  #46
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I have posted this before, and yeah made it last post season. Sad how it still applies today...


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04-19-2012, 04:57 PM
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I feel like Marleau has a wrist injury, which would explain why he doesn't want the puck on his stick under any circumstances.
if that's the case which i hope isn't, he should've told the training staff and tmac so they can move his ***** ass off the top line. very selfish of him for 3 games.

2 more years of this crap?

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04-19-2012, 05:30 PM
  #48
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if that's the case which i hope isn't, he should've told the training staff and tmac so they can move his ***** ass off the top line. very selfish of him for 3 games.

2 more years of this crap?
What makes you think he hasn't told the coaching staff? Remember what Boyle, Thornton, and Heatley played through last season, and then tell me that this coaching staff would change something for an injury so minor as a wrist injury.

Can't do anything right, can he?

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04-19-2012, 06:27 PM
  #49
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the speculation of injury makes me laugh... makes me think of Mr. JR's comment last year!

I do not believe he is injured.

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04-19-2012, 06:30 PM
  #50
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That 500k equates to 2 million dollars over the life of the deal and he would've had the clause with it if he took the 7.5 mil and went elsewhere. The Rangers who are now contenders would have had the room for him at the time likely would have been interested. Either way, all that doesn't really matter. You're simply wrong if you think contending teams wouldn't have thrown that money at a guy that just came off of a 40+ goal scoring season.
NYR were on the cusp of making the playoffs or were barely 8th seed at the time, not yearly contenders like the Sharks. They were desperate for a 1C like many other on-the-cusp teams. If they did sign Marleau, the entire team make-up would be different right now so who knows if they'd make the playoffs. Besides, I highly doubt they would have given him 7.5 million a year on the cap. If anything, they'd give him a similar deal to Richards where it's a cap-friendly but longterm deal. The yearly contenders would likely look into signing Marleau in free agency, but they wouldn't have that kind of money to spare to throw at him, not without some drawbacks that he would have to consider.

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And in actuality, during the worst season of his career, he did NOT have a clause in his contract.
My mistake, but my point still stands. The main issue was a conflict between him and the RW. The trade rumors stemmed from that which might have added to his decline, but it certainly wasn't the main factor.

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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
You want to talk about rationalizing the money dished out but I don't hear you talking about Joe Thornton who is paid the same, can't even crack 20 goals, and didn't produce crap until the third game was essentially over.
Thornton had a terribly slow start to the season and I called him out for it as well. Post all-star break he's been putting the team on his back, something a big salary player and leader should be doing. I can't say the same for Marleau. Even in the playoffs Thornton has been noticeable and the effort is there, but there's only so much you can do when you're primarily (close to solely) a passing playmaker. He's made plenty of amazing set-up passes that haven't been converted. That's on Marleau and Pavelski, more emphasis on Marleau because he's making a lot more and with that comes expectations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
You're conveniently leaving things out just because you want to pile on. Where was the pressure last year when he scored 37 goals?
Yeah, I'm leaving things out. Where was he in the Detroit series? Heck, game 5 could have been won if it weren't for his brainfart, and if that happened Clowe and Demers wouldn't have been injured in game 6 and 7. Who knows? They would have stood a better chance against the Canucks and maybe they could have made the SC finals that year. He showed up in the series after, but by then the rest of the team was dead or half-dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Where was the pressure in 2008-09 when he scored 38 goals?
He converted to Thornton's wing that year and was part of probably the hottest line in the league. Thornton takes a lot of pressure off a guy, which just makes Marleau's current point totals all the more striking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Quite frankly, your argument is full of crap but when people go into a frenzy over the playoffs, it's hard for them to be rational about it and you certainly aren't here.
I've already shown why the whole 'if he was paid less' thing is wrong. He's already gone through the 'paid less' part and was still heavily criticized for many different things. It makes no difference here.
You didn't show anything of the sort. You cite earlier examples from Marleau's own history but those had different circumstances. 6.3 million still was among the top paid players on the team so of course he was criticized. Before that he was captain, which has its own stigma and team responsibilities, and when your captain isn't contributing, then obviously the fans will be unhappy. Not to mention Marleau is the highest Sharks draft pick in history, which in itself brings expectations that can't be compared to other players.

6.9 million comes with expectations. He is the second highest paid player on the team for a reason. When you're paid that much, you're expected to contribute when it matters. If you don't want to be called out, don't sign for that much or go to a team where the fans won't care. He's playing some of the most minutes among forwards on the team, which means he's taking those minutes from other players. He penalty kills, but so does pretty much everyone else on the team (Besides Clowe) and it's been pretty awful anyway. I've seen the defense of "but he a two-way forward and plays defense too", but a 3rd line grinder can penalty kill and play defense and he won't be making close to 7 million.

The Sharks are too top-heavy. We solved a bit of that by trading Heatley, but it's still a problem. In theory it would be okay. You have each of the high paid players centering their own line and that would lead to harder matchups for the opponent, sort of like how Detroit does it with Datsyuk and Zetterberg for the most part. You can overload both on the same line at times, but it shouldn't be the default. That's mostly a coaching issue, but Marleau also has gone on record saying he prefers to play with Thornton. When he did center his own line in the past, his production actually tailed off which to me shows that he's relying too much on Thornton. If the two of them are playing together, they should be making it a living hell for the other team's matchups. That just hasn't been the case.

Another issue is that the top players actually have to carry their weight. If they're not, it doesn't justify the high salary.

Marleau gets paid the amount of two good forwards. I would much rather have two forwards who each produce 40-60 points rather than one player who produced 64. Even Marleau's expected totals of 70-80 don't seem as productive compared to two forwards who can do the same. When Marleau goes invisible, it's a huge detriment to the team. If one of the two theoretical forwards goes cold, at least there will be another one to carry the slack, or at least lessen the burden. I just have a hard time justifying Marleau's bigtime salary when he only plays like a complimentary piece.

Marleau gets his undue criticisms, that much is true, and a lot of fans expect way too much out of him. However, he also has his share of blind apologists who say he can't do any wrong. For me it boils down to salary and the expectations that come with it. He's not being a game changer (nor has he ever really been one IMO) when he's getting paid to be one, and that's on DW for his poor salary management.


Last edited by ChubbChubby: 04-19-2012 at 06:36 PM.
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