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Revisiting the Kaberle-Spacek deal

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04-13-2012, 12:03 AM
  #1
Tak7
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Revisiting the Kaberle-Spacek deal

Hey all.

Thought I'd ask a question pertaining to the Kaberle-Spacek trade.

Some may remember me as the guy that took a lot of heat (and overlooked a lot of personal insults), when the Kaberle-Spacek deal happened, for suggesting that it was a bad trade for the Montreal Canadiens purely based on contract numbers, and where Kaberle was in his career.

As someone who has been a huge fan of Kaberle, I just didn't like the trade.

Now, having finished his first season at the club, I'm curious to know what people think now:

Is Kaberle a key piece in Montreal moving forward? Where does he fit in? Do you still make that trade if you can go back?

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04-13-2012, 12:23 AM
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LyricalLyricist
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Kaberle is a good player. Helps the team. Problem is, habs need another(but bigger) gorges shutdown guy more than they need another PMD. It may no sense in that regard. I can live with the contract, but he's redundant.

I will say this, I expect him to bounce back and have a much better year indicative of a top 4 d-man. However, unless habs deal weber, diaz or whoever for a shutdown guy, we're soft at D and kaberle doesn't help.

So essentially, it was a 'good' trade in terms of we got the better player and the cap is managable. It was bad because we didnt need him for 2.5 years.

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04-13-2012, 12:29 AM
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Lafleurs Guy
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Revisiting this trade is like revisiting the Bates motel.

Don't drop the soap in the shower...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak7 View Post
Hey all.

Thought I'd ask a question pertaining to the Kaberle-Spacek trade.

Some may remember me as the guy that took a lot of heat (and overlooked a lot of personal insults), when the Kaberle-Spacek deal happened, for suggesting that it was a bad trade for the Montreal Canadiens purely based on contract numbers, and where Kaberle was in his career.

As someone who has been a huge fan of Kaberle, I just didn't like the trade.

Now, having finished his first season at the club, I'm curious to know what people think now:

Is Kaberle a key piece in Montreal moving forward? Where does he fit in? Do you still make that trade if you can go back?
I like this Troy MaClure intro too. I should start all my threads like this.

Hi I'm Lafleurs Guy. You may remember me from such threads as "It's time to rebuild" and "It's time to rebuild NOW!" I like it.

All that being said, if you saw that this was a bad trade back then, good for you. You were absolutely right then and congrats on seeing it. I thought it was a disaster too btw. So I guess I'm two for three on being right this year as the Bourque deal also looks bad but Cole is about 2 billion times better than I thought he'd be. Can't win 'em all.

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04-13-2012, 12:39 AM
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OneSharpMarble
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What are you talking about "took heat"? Everyone said they hated this trade when it happened! It was a river of tears about gauthier and the end of the world. It was so bad you would almost swear gauthier had to be anglophone.

I didn't mind the trade when it happened and I havn't changed my mind so far. The guy did what we brought him in to do and what he did his whole career. Just because we have zero supporting staff for him doesn't mean he isn't doing his job.

Next year when we find someone who can shoot the puck and our powerplay isn't garbage then he will probably pot close to 50 points. We can then decide to either move him for a nice pick or hold on to him. I like the trade, he is much better than spacek who was **** reguardless of who played with him.

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04-13-2012, 12:42 AM
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LyricalLyricist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Revisiting this trade is like revisiting the Bates motel.

Don't drop the soap in the shower...

I like this Troy MaClure intro too. I should start all my threads like this.

Hi I'm Lafleurs Guy. You may remember me from such threads as "It's time to rebuild" and "It's time to rebuild NOW!" I like it.


All that being said, if you saw that this was a bad trade back then, good for you. You were absolutely right then and congrats on seeing it. I thought it was a disaster too btw. So I guess I'm two for three on being right this year as the Bourque deal also looks bad but Cole is about 2 billion times better than I thought he'd be. Can't win 'em all.
Excellent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
What are you talking about "took heat"? Everyone said they hated this trade when it happened! It was a river of tears about gauthier and the end of the world. It was so bad you would almost swear gauthier had to be anglophone.

I didn't mind the trade when it happened and I havn't changed my mind so far. The guy did what we brought him in to do and what he did his whole career. Just because we have zero supporting staff for him doesn't mean he isn't doing his job.

Next year when we find someone who can shoot the puck and our powerplay isn't garbage then he will probably pot close to 50 points. We can then decide to either move him for a nice pick or hold on to him. I like the trade, he is much better than spacek who was **** reguardless of who played with him.
It's rare I agree with you, but yah, trade wasn't bad and kaberle has good talent. Gauthier was wrong to acquire him when our D was in need of other things, but if our next GM can find a good balance in the line up then kaberle surely has a place with us.

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04-13-2012, 12:48 AM
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Kriss E
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
It's rare I agree with you, but yah, trade wasn't bad and kaberle has good talent. Gauthier was wrong to acquire him when our D was in need of other things, but if our next GM can find a good balance in the line up then kaberle surely has a place with us.
Kaberle is actually a guy I was thinking about last summer as a back up plan if Markov goes down and we don't re-sign Hammer.
But that was also assuming we sign another strong defensive Dman with some physicality to him, and not sign guys like Gill or Campoli.

I think it was pretty clear Markov was a goner for most of the year when we made this acquisition, and him being under contract for a couple years I'm sure actually attracted Gauthier even more. He had made the mistake of not coming in with a back up plan to Markov, and now he had just traded for one for more than a couple years.

But now, with Diaz, Weber, Markov and Kaberle, we gotta move some. Those four are pretty much identical, with different levels of talent. Markov won't be moved, so two out of the other three gotta go.

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04-13-2012, 01:48 AM
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Hi, I'm poster Jack DiBiase. You might remember from such topics as "Christmas Lucic" and "Christmas Lucic goes to Summer Camp".

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04-13-2012, 02:13 AM
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Mike8
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Hey Tak7, just wanted to congratulate you on making a good call that few among us had the foresight to recognise.

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04-13-2012, 02:22 AM
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Since Spacek didn't play any better than Kaberle this season and Carolina didn't manage to trade him at the deadline my thinking goes like this:

Its a good trade if Montreal flips him for any kind of asset this summer. Its a bad one if they don't.

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04-13-2012, 02:26 AM
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Hi, I'm WhiskeySeven, you may remember me from "Gauthier's not that bad, is he?" and "Oh come on, can someone other than Habaneros comment on my threads?" I'm here to revisit and talk to you about the Tomas Kaberle trade.


You see Timmy, Tomas Kaberle's play has devolved a bit since his hey-day with the Maple Leafs. He's now what we in the industry call "a puck-moving defenseman". That means he can contribute with initiating a break-out, skating the puck out of our zone and setting up a powerplay with relative ease. Most puck-moving defensemen, or PMD for short, tend to avoid physical play and Tomas Kaberle certainly fits that mold!


When we acquired Kaberle our line-up was very inexperienced and only had one PMD, 2nd year sophomore PK Subban, and our powerplay was, haha, non-existent! In fact, the player we traded for Kaberle was an under-performing, brittle and older Czech defenseman called Jaroslav Spacek. He was over-weight, his coveted slap-shot was astonishingly inaccurate, and he was both non-physical and couldn't skate!

So Pierre Gauthier figured it would be wise to trade for Kaberle and get a PMD.


Kaberle ended up having an average season paired with the worst defenseman on the Habs, an idiot called Chris Campoli. Unfortunately the team had a terrible record after December, the month in which he was acquired, so the correlation is easy to confuse. He did not have a good year but he is still an asset and he is very experienced - he could prove to be a very underrated asset, like Filip Kuba, next year.

G'night kids!


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04-13-2012, 02:37 AM
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Jack DiBiase
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Hi, I'm WhiskeySeven...
Little Timmy: But Mr WhiskeySeven, doesn't Kaberle's contract go at $4,250,000 for the next two seasons?

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04-13-2012, 02:50 AM
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WhiskeySeven
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Originally Posted by Little Timmy View Post
But Mr Troy McClure, doesn't Kaberle's contract go at $4,250,000 for the next two seasons?

How did you get my home number, this was supposed to be unlisted!

Anyways, with regards to your question, too many people focus on the cap-hit and not the production. The Montreal Canadiens organization presumably figured that his cap hit would be manageable with the demotion of Gomez (and the cap rising another ~15%), his production (true worth) and with the possbility of being able to flip him over to another team. Kaberle's value plummeted over less than a year, he was traded for a king's ransom at last year's trade deadline and acquired by the Canadiens for almost literally nothing the following December. That could either mean his play regressed magnificently over an alarmingly short span of time (some call for Ponce de Leon? Haha!) or his value and play will surely pick up.

Time will tell, timmy, but I'm betting that he's going to get all better. Until then, enjoy summer vacation - I'm going to enjoy a cool dip right now!


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04-13-2012, 02:55 AM
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Tak7
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Hey Tak7, just wanted to congratulate you on making a good call that few among us had the foresight to recognise.
Relax - I wasn't looking for some sort of recognition of me being correct. At no point when the trade was made did I say Kaberle would be a bust etc., but rather said that it was a bad trade for Montreal.

Just wondered, as mentioned in the opening post, how people who watched the Habs a lot closer than I do felt about the trade now that he's played for you guys.

I personally felt that his best days were before him well before he left the Leafs, and he's been well on his travels since. So, as mentioned, I was curious

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04-13-2012, 04:00 AM
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Simply put, it was a bad trade.

Spacek's contrat is finished. We have to hold onto Kaberle for another two years at 4.25m. We won't be able to trade him either, not at that amount - unless we're taking back another piss-poor contract. If Kaberle can regain his Toronto-form, then it's not so bad...

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04-13-2012, 04:55 AM
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I still make that trade 100 times out of 100.

Unfortunately, Gionta's injury was long term and Cammalleri decided not to show up. Kaberle had many poor plays, but he made some good ones as well. And he put up points with an underachieving team.

I'm comfortable with Kaberle going into next year. I'd pair him with a shutdown guy though, otherwise he's a bit hard to handle.

Markov - Subban
Kaberle - Gorges
Emelin - Diaz
St-Denis

I would obviously throw a huge contract offer at Ryan Suter, but there are other options I'd look over. I'm kinda on the Johhny Oduya bandwagon, but I'm not sure there's room.

I'd look at a possible Yannick Weber/Linus Omark trade.

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04-13-2012, 05:13 AM
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Comic book guy response to troy mclure:

Players like Kaberle and Gomez are but a shadow of the player they used to be...

In hindsight I doubt many a learned men would re do that trade...one of the fundamental aspects of producing a winning team is a clever allocation of your cap space etc...I for one find us to be severely lacking in this area...has beens like Gomez and Kaberle were bandaid solutions for bullet wounds we need to move forward and in a new direction without these two, the d core needs serious consideration for improvement

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04-13-2012, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Revisiting this trade is like revisiting the Bates motel.

Don't drop the soap in the shower...

I like this Troy MaClure intro too. I should start all my threads like this.

Hi I'm Lafleurs Guy. You may remember me from such threads as "It's time to rebuild" and "It's time to rebuild NOW!" I like it.

All that being said, if you saw that this was a bad trade back then, good for you. You were absolutely right then and congrats on seeing it. I thought it was a disaster too btw. So I guess I'm two for three on being right this year as the Bourque deal also looks bad but Cole is about 2 billion times better than I thought he'd be. Can't win 'em all.
Lol I am laughing my ass off, well done.

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04-13-2012, 06:05 AM
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Should have given Spacek a chance

The team's record was actually good with Spacek in the lineup, they should have let him play before trading him.

I don't know what's happened to Kaberle, but he is weak on defense and his passing has deteriorated. He can't even feed Subban one-timers much less catch people on the fly.

Kaberle isn't terrible, but he is not useful to the habs and he will be hard to move considering his contract. The habs probably have to:

1. Convince him to work hard in the off season
2. Give him some protected and power play minutes next pre-season when there is no contact.
3. Hope he looks good enough to be able to trade him before the real season when he starts looking weak and wasting power plays again.

If he gets his game together he could be useful for a year or two, but why not play Weber or Diaz for less money? Weber showed his upside at the beginning of the year and Diaz should only get better as he adapts to the league. Kaberle appears to be in decline (hope he has at least bottomed out).

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04-13-2012, 06:23 AM
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So why was Kaberle brought in the PP? Did you have a look at where our PP finished?

The trade was horrible period.

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04-13-2012, 06:38 AM
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For all the complaining that gets done that Montreal never buys low, this is a textbook definition of exactly that - they took an asset that was almost completely worthless (Spacek, who most fans wanted to dump to the minors despite common sense, logic, and the CBA which would have kept his cap hit on the books) and turned it into a useful player. Yes, Kaberle is a useful player.

Spacek couldn't even get dumped at the trade deadline for a late round pick.

Kaberle put up 22 points in 43 games for Montreal, a pace to get him above 40 points had he played here the whole season. Only 19 defensemen hit 40 points this year. That's how rare it is to get good production from a defenseman.

Gauthier did this to get a Markov fill-in, getting a good player for literally nothing. He needed to fix the power play and hoped that would be enough to get Montreal back in the playoff race. Unfortunately about a week later he fired Martin and installed Cunneyworth, and all hope was lost. But that shouldn't be on Kaberle.

He actually did fix the power play. Most people choose to ignore that, but the PP was far better with Kaberle than without.

With Kaberle in the Lineup: 26-for-151, 17.2%
Without Kaberle in the Lineup: 17-for-150, 11.3%

But as always, everyone here will focus on the negatives, and point out that since Kaberle is "soft" then there's no place in the league for him. Well, any stiff can crosscheck people in front of the net if that's what you're looking for. Kaberle can do what maybe only 30 others in the league can do - put up a serious number of points from the blue line, not to mention make a decent first pass.

I for one am actually looking forward to a regular power play that features Subban, Markov AND Kaberle on the point. Imagine a new coach having all 3 of those weapons at his disposal. One of those 3 will get to feast on the 2nd unit penalty kill all year.

As for 5-on-5, he's not going to be on the top pairing any more. But he was always "soft" in Toronto, and that didn't exactly prevent him from being their # 1 D for a very long time. Partner him up with Gorges, Emelin, or a mid level UFA on the right side and we're good.

Is he overpaid? Sure. But who isn't? Who are you going to get as a fill-in, even if Kaberle disappeared overnight? Who is going to come in and put up 40+ points from the blue line for less than $4.25 million? What killed this team is injuries and lack of depth. So getting rid of Kaberle, Weber and Diaz, well great, you've just got rid of what little depth we had, and we'd be compeltely dependent on trying to find some decent free agents from a very limited list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
So why was Kaberle brought in the PP? Did you have a look at where our PP finished?

The trade was horrible period.
Seems I'll need to repeat this over and over.

With Kaberle in the Lineup: 26-for-151, 17.2%
Without Kaberle in the Lineup: 17-for-150, 11.3%

17.2% would have been good enough for 14th in the league. Not fantastic, but certainly not a disaster.

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04-13-2012, 06:44 AM
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Bad, bad, bad trade. It stunk of desperation.

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04-13-2012, 06:56 AM
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vokiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
...
Seems I'll need to repeat this over and over.

With Kaberle in the Lineup: 26-for-151, 17.2%
Without Kaberle in the Lineup: 17-for-150, 11.3%

17.2% would have been good enough for 14th in the league. Not fantastic, but certainly not a disaster.
I didn't say Kaberle was horrible, I said the trade was. "Would have been" doesn't count when you do these kinds of move. The fact remains that he wasn't able to move this PP anywhere and he could have not to begin with. This is why this trade was very misguided IMHO.

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04-13-2012, 08:01 AM
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CCG: In the grand scheme of things, cost benefit/analysis perspective how much good from that improvemed powerplay with Kaberle, now he is Gomez 2.0 defense version...I really miss the old Kaberle....when he was actually decent, now we are stuck with his salary and his uber declining production, shoulda really kept Spacek last year...and even try him on the PP, seemed to work when he was with the Sabres...Yet we tried everything...forwards...and ultimately we tried Kaberle...but again in the grand scheme of things, stop gap measure that has kinda screwed us for the future and more importantly the present...

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04-13-2012, 08:18 AM
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Kaberle is not a core player, but he will be better than he showed last year. His hangover lasted the whole year pretty much...he won his cup, signed his contract, had a baby at home, etc...he had little reason to be motivated.

As 'bad' as he played he still got his points...but I think he'll be much better this year back there for us.

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04-13-2012, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
I still make that trade 100 times out of 100.

Unfortunately, Gionta's injury was long term and Cammalleri decided not to show up. Kaberle had many poor plays, but he made some good ones as well. And he put up points with an underachieving team.

I'm comfortable with Kaberle going into next year. I'd pair him with a shutdown guy though, otherwise he's a bit hard to handle.

Markov - Subban
Kaberle - Gorges
Emelin - Diaz
St-Denis

I would obviously throw a huge contract offer at Ryan Suter, but there are other options I'd look over. I'm kinda on the Johhny Oduya bandwagon, but I'm not sure there's room.

I'd look at a possible Yannick Weber/Linus Omark trade.
I agree here aside pairing Markov with Subban. I could see a shut down guy with Kaberle and try the Emelin with Markov to see if it can work. Subban with Gorges was solid but I would not be affraid to put Gorges on the right side.
I also do not shair the same feeling about Diaz in the starting line up.
My line up at defense looks like this:

Gorges-PK
Markov-Emelin
Kaberle-UFA
Diaz, St-denis for 7-8 spot.

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