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Offseason discussion continued (Contract chart in Post #1)

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Old
04-30-2012, 06:30 PM
  #876
mpp9
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Strait/Bortuzzo will have to go on waivers next year. Lovejoy better be the odd man out especially if Despres sticks. He serves zero purpose on a team full of PMD.

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04-30-2012, 07:02 PM
  #877
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Strait/Bortuzzo will have to go on waivers next year. Lovejoy better be the odd man out especially if Despres sticks. He serves zero purpose on a team full of PMD.
Bylsma has plenty of love and joy for Ben, so don't get your hopes up!

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04-30-2012, 07:10 PM
  #878
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Bylsma has plenty of love and joy for Ben, so don't get your hopes up!
We all how much Shero loves to have 10 Ds available at the start of the season.

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04-30-2012, 07:29 PM
  #879
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Food for thought because I've seen the 2012 #1 and #5 picks bandied about, #1 cap hit will be ~3.8M, #5 1.8M.

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04-30-2012, 08:14 PM
  #880
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
That's fair. I do think it's unlikely that both Despres and Morrow WON'T be ready next year. I'm confident one of them will be in the lineup given their skills and that both played well in their debuts. Especially Despres whose debut was more of a pressure situation vs. Morrow's first 8 games.
While I think there's a good chance that Despres is in the starting 6 next year, it honestly wouldn't surprise me if NEITHER of Despres & Morrow were full time next year. The Pens have a history -- and rightfully so -- of letting their young defenseman spend as much time as possible in the minors. I think they would prefer to take the same path with both of these players.

If Despres makes this team next year, I think it's either because we don't have someone performing better who should be (i.e. Martin), and/or because of salary cap considerations. Despres hasn't exactly "outperformed" the AHL competition, and I think he could really benefit from another year in the AHL.

Morrow also needs to polish his defensive game and learn the Pens system. I think there's virtually no chance he sees much NHL time next year, if any.


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What do you guys think about the following package for Jordan. I honestly foresee this helping us out a lot in the long term.

Nikolai Kulemin
Luke Schenn
5th Overall Pick in 2012

for

Jordan Staal
Eric Tangradi
That deal may have looked a lot better one year ago, but both Kulemin and Schenn had weak years this year and their value is down, so I don't see the Pens needing to add Tangradi, whom I'm expecting to play for us full-time next year.

Also, if the Pens aren't sold on Schenn, for that deal to go down, it may need to be a 3-way trade in which Schenn goes to another team for a forward, as the Pens would likely pick a defenseman at the #5 slot.


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Originally Posted by Fogel View Post
Food for thought because I've seen the 2012 #1 and #5 picks bandied about, #1 cap hit will be ~3.8M, #5 1.8M.

No one pcked at #5 is going to play for at least 2 years, so I'm not sure how relevant that would really be for us and the cap considerations.

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04-30-2012, 08:20 PM
  #881
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Originally Posted by Fogel View Post
Food for thought because I've seen the 2012 #1 and #5 picks bandied about, #1 cap hit will be ~3.8M, #5 1.8M.
While that is true for the moment, these are the type of things that very well may change in the new CBA. ELCs are always fair game in labor negotiations as they have no effect on any current members of the NHLPA.

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04-30-2012, 08:34 PM
  #882
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Originally Posted by Jonjmc View Post
While that is true for the moment, these are the type of things that very well may change in the new CBA. ELCs are always fair game in labor negotiations as they have no effect on any current members of the NHLPA.
I think that would only be the case if they sign the CBA prior to anyone signing their ELC. I'd imagine a great deal of lawyering if they tried to change a signed contract.

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04-30-2012, 09:49 PM
  #883
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Originally Posted by gordie View Post
Bylsma has plenty of love and joy for Ben, so don't get your hopes up!
Shoot me now.

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04-30-2012, 10:05 PM
  #884
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He'd look nice anywhere right now. To answer your question I think it depends somewhat on the draft class. Possible some teams, faced with a choice between a skilled prospect that needs 2-3 years to hit the ice, and an experienced guy who could jump in immediately and be a big help on special teams or plug a whole as a 2nd/3rd line tweener, might take the player because it's more of a sure thing. Even if the upside is not as good. Particularly if they already have prospects in the same mode as the one they're likely to give up / trading directly after the pick.

If it were picks for picks I think the answer is it would probably take a 1st and 2nd or 1st and 3rd that same draft. IOW we would've traded Ottawa our 1st and 2nd/3rd pick last year to get their 1st pick, given who it was. I don't remember for sure but I don't think it was in doubt who the next player to go in the draft was going to be. Tarasenko was definitely the best guy left.




That's fair. I do think it's unlikely that both Despres and Morrow WON'T be ready next year. I'm confident one of them will be in the lineup given their skills and that both played well in their debuts. Especially Despres whose debut was more of a pressure situation vs. Morrow's first 8 games.
From what you say, the Pens should have done that. Would be special to think of him with Malkin and Neal next year.

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04-30-2012, 10:18 PM
  #885
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Originally Posted by Fogel View Post
Food for thought because I've seen the 2012 #1 and #5 picks bandied about, #1 cap hit will be ~3.8M, #5 1.8M.
What is the hit for #2 and #3 overall?

Would be nice to trade Staal for a nice NHL player and Ryan Murray.

Staal
Martin
Strait
Tangradi

for

Johansen
#2 Overall Pick (Ryan Murray)

Johasen gives the Pens a replacement for Staal at 3C and insurance if Crosby or Malkin is out for a while. Also continue to build the defense of the future to support Crosby and Malkin.

Columbus gets a #1 Center to build around and maybe find a way to keep Nash. They get a solid PMD in Martin. Also get a solid, cheap defenseman and a highly rated PF prospect.

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04-30-2012, 11:27 PM
  #886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fogel View Post
I think that would only be the case if they sign the CBA prior to anyone signing their ELC. I'd imagine a great deal of lawyering if they tried to change a signed contract.
Of course if it's signed under the current CBA the numbers your originally posted are accurate. I'm not sure there is going to be any rush for a GM to sign the current crop of draftees, unless they have a good idea that ELCs in the next CBA are going to be less favorable to the clubs. While the base salaries may go up a bit for ELCs, it's the bonuses that are the problem.

The whole concept of a bonus counting against the cap until it can't be achieved is an odd idea at best, and something that the players and and teams that spend to the cap would want altered. Something as simple as attained bonuses count against next years cap would make much more sense.

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Old
05-01-2012, 12:34 AM
  #887
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How about finding a half decent backup for MAF? Not sure what happened to BJ this season, but he instantly went from being one of the better backups in the league to absolute *****.

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05-01-2012, 12:53 AM
  #888
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Lovejoy is out, are we really discussing this? It's as plain as day.

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Old
05-01-2012, 05:54 AM
  #889
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Lovejoy is out, are we really discussing this? It's as plain as day.
ya when your team puts two rookies into the line-up over you at the most important time of the year, you should probably be worried about your job. If we had a game tomorrow he'd be what, our number 9 D-man? Throw Bortuzzo or even Morrow into the mix next year and he just doesn't have a spot here.

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05-01-2012, 06:51 AM
  #890
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ya when your team puts two rookies into the line-up over you at the most important time of the year, you should probably be worried about your job. If we had a game tomorrow he'd be what, our number 9 D-man? Throw Bortuzzo or even Morrow into the mix next year and he just doesn't have a spot here.
I'd much rather trade Lovejoy for what ever we can get, 7th rd pick, than lose Strait or Bortuzzo to waivers. Either one could step in and be your 7th D-man next year and both are younger with so much more upside. I think the writing is on the wall for Lovejoy. On a lesser team he might be a regular 5-6 bottom pairing D-man next year. Just not on the Pens.

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05-01-2012, 07:46 AM
  #891
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Originally Posted by Jonjmc View Post
Of course if it's signed under the current CBA the numbers your originally posted are accurate. I'm not sure there is going to be any rush for a GM to sign the current crop of draftees, unless they have a good idea that ELCs in the next CBA are going to be less favorable to the clubs. While the base salaries may go up a bit for ELCs, it's the bonuses that are the problem.

The whole concept of a bonus counting against the cap until it can't be achieved is an odd idea at best, and something that the players and and teams that spend to the cap would want altered. Something as simple as attained bonuses count against next years cap would make much more sense.
While it is logical to rework the bonus part of the ELC, I think there will be too much of a time crunch for the GMs to hold out and delay signing rookies. The CBA expires on Sept 15 and the season usually starts the first week of October, say the 7th. Preseason is usually about 2 weeks with a few days off right before the regular season starts. There are always a very small amount of NHL ready draftees with whom you can wait since you know they will be there on opening day, but for the rest, the teams usually have to wait for training camp and preseason to take a look at. Training camp isn't a problem, but I'm fairly certain that players who participate in preseason have to have a contract signed. That gives teams maybe a week to figure out if they want to sign a guy to the ELC and throw him in the fire.

There are a few scenarios where it can . Of course, it is all moot if all the GMs decide to delay the signing draftees and bring them up later, but I think there would be a strong threat of collusion charges. Only 4 2011 draftees played the majority of the season with another 3 getting a taste, but there have been no draft years in recent memory that didn't produce at least a few straight to the NHL draftees. Second scenario would be to have a delay in the regular season to lengthen the offseason and give GMs more time to work with the new CBA. It seems the most logical, but also would either shorten the season in terms of games or increase the length of time the season would be spread out. We'll see in the end.

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05-01-2012, 10:03 AM
  #892
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Man ... it is going to be one very, very loooooooooooong off season


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05-01-2012, 10:22 AM
  #893
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Malkin skating with the Russian national team today

http://www.championat.com/photo/hock...ij-malkin.html

http://fyeahevgenimalkin.tumblr.com/...m-in-novogorsk

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Old
05-01-2012, 04:29 PM
  #894
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I think Sid/Geno are gonna be looking at 9.5+ next contract. More than fair and right along the lines of what they took last time (around 15% of the salary cap each). With Neal at 5, Staal at 6, Fleury at 5, Letang at 6. 41 million invested in 6 players.

I really don't see us being able to build a strong team around them with the average cap hit of the remaining 16 roster players being less than 1.5 mil with the current cap of 64 mil.

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05-01-2012, 04:35 PM
  #895
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
I think Sid/Geno are gonna be looking at 9.5+ next contract. More than fair and right along the lines of what they took last time (around 15% of the salary cap each). With Neal at 5, Staal at 6, Fleury at 5, Letang at 6. 41 million invested in 6 players.

I really don't see us being able to build a strong team around them with the average cap hit of the remaining 16 roster players being less than 1.5 mil with the current cap of 64 mil.
What is the league average for each team's top 6 salaries?

$7M is a lot for an average.

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05-01-2012, 06:08 PM
  #896
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
I think Sid/Geno are gonna be looking at 9.5+ next contract. More than fair and right along the lines of what they took last time (around 15% of the salary cap each). With Neal at 5, Staal at 6, Fleury at 5, Letang at 6. 41 million invested in 6 players.

I really don't see us being able to build a strong team around them with the average cap hit of the remaining 16 roster players being less than 1.5 mil with the current cap of 64 mil.
I certainly hope not.

Yes, technically it is "fair" for those guys to command those salaries, but if they really want what is best for the team, they will take a minor discount to allow the team some flexability. Any contract over Stamkos' $8million or Eric Staal's $8.25 million would still make Sid & Geno the very higest paid players in the league, behind Ovechkin's contract. And just because Sid & Geno outperform Ovie, it doesn't mean they need to be paid more than him.

If Sid & Geno insist on getting the maximum salary, we'll always have problems with wingers & D. Hopefully they follow in the lines of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kane, Toews and even Stamkos who took less money than they could have in recent years.

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05-01-2012, 06:18 PM
  #897
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
I think Sid/Geno are gonna be looking at 9.5+ next contract. More than fair and right along the lines of what they took last time (around 15% of the salary cap each). With Neal at 5, Staal at 6, Fleury at 5, Letang at 6. 41 million invested in 6 players.

I really don't see us being able to build a strong team around them with the average cap hit of the remaining 16 roster players being less than 1.5 mil with the current cap of 64 mil.
I don't see either of them commanding that much. Both of them understand the concept of team and salary cap.

I'm saying they sign 5 year extensions at the same salary. What would be even better is 8.7years at $7.1mil per.

Do they deserve more, yes and we know it. Will they be selfish and command that...I honestly don't see it.

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05-01-2012, 06:26 PM
  #898
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From what you say, the Pens should have done that. Would be special to think of him with Malkin and Neal next year.
I forget what STL offered but it was comparable and Ottawa isn't going to trade a guy like that to us, that's for sure. They sent him west where he's less likely to cause problems for them.


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Lovejoy is out, are we really discussing this? It's as plain as day.
Yah I don't see the Reverend getting any love next year. Was nice while it lasted...

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05-01-2012, 06:32 PM
  #899
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What about trading Fleury (possibly to Tampa Bay) and then signing Vokoun and Harding on one and two year deals respectfully? Huh?

Vokoun & Harding combined would take up less cap space than Fleury alone.

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05-01-2012, 06:39 PM
  #900
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I forget what STL offered but it was comparable and Ottawa isn't going to trade a guy like that to us, that's for sure. They sent him west where he's less likely to cause problems for them.
Rundblad

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