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Offseason discussion continued (Contract chart in Post #1)

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05-01-2012, 06:41 PM
  #901
Guins71
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Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
What about trading Fleury (possibly to Tampa Bay) and then signing Vokoun and Harding on one and two year deals respectfully? Huh?

Vokoun & Harding combined would take up less cap space than Fleury alone.
And possibly make not let in so many fluky goals and ***** themselves?

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05-01-2012, 06:47 PM
  #902
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Rundblad
Yah... I think that's right. And then they traded him to get Turris. Interesting how stuff works out. Would you rather have Turris now or Tarasenko next fall? Not so sure that worked out for Ottawa but we'll see. Have to actually get it done on the ice for the big praise to mean anything.

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05-01-2012, 06:49 PM
  #903
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Originally Posted by Guins71 View Post
And possibly make not let in so many fluky goals and ***** themselves?
Possibly, yes.

Split duties, stop as many pucks as Fleury does in the regular season, go into the playoffs with two fresh and hungry netminders, with a better team in front of them because that 2+ mill saved can be spent elsewhere.

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05-01-2012, 07:33 PM
  #904
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I dunno about Sid/Geno taking the same contract. Cap has gone up quite a bit. 9.5 has them leaving significant money on the table and being paid the most in the league along with Ovy.

I don't see Geno ever being traded, but giving Staal the 2C role and locking him up at 5.75 longterm would have me think twice about it.

Moving Fleury shouldn't be out of the question. But we're better off finding a backup that can win us a playoff game and see where Fleury's at next year.

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05-01-2012, 08:32 PM
  #905
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
What about trading Fleury (possibly to Tampa Bay) and then signing Vokoun and Harding on one and two year deals respectfully? Huh?

Vokoun & Harding combined would take up less cap space than Fleury alone.
That's not a half bad idea. I doubt it will happen, but i like the concept

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05-01-2012, 08:36 PM
  #906
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re: mpp9

If you're spending $5 million on a starter you better be absolutely sure that they can carry the load through the regular season AND playoffs. I see nothing positive in investing so much in a starter and then having to spend possibly another million or more on a backup in case the starter ***** the bed, as he's done in 2 of the last 3 playoffs.

In my scenario, you could have Vokoun for $2 million and Harding for $1.5. Both significant raises on their current deals.. And it leaves you with $2.5 million to invest elsewhere.

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05-01-2012, 08:40 PM
  #907
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
What about trading Fleury (possibly to Tampa Bay) and then signing Vokoun and Harding on one and two year deals respectfully? Huh?

Vokoun & Harding combined would take up less cap space than Fleury alone.
The two goalie system doesn't work. You need a clear number 1 guy who isn't constantly worried about being pulled.

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05-01-2012, 08:46 PM
  #908
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Well, I think Vokoun would be the backup and Harding would be the new franchise goalie.

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05-01-2012, 08:59 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
The two goalie system doesn't work. You need a clear number 1 guy who isn't constantly worried about being pulled.
I couldn't disagree more, for a few reasons. First, competition is a good thing regardless of the position. Goalies *should* feel a little heat if they don't play well. Second, we're talking about a salary cap and what the best way is to maximize the money you have available. Spending 3.5 million is a lot better than spending 6 million if you feel like you can get equal - or better - results on the ice. Third, you don't have to look very hard to find teams that, for one reason or another, had goalies split starts in the regular season and go on to win the Cup. The Wings in '08 and Chicago in '10.

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05-01-2012, 09:08 PM
  #910
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
I couldn't disagree more, for a few reasons. First, competition is a good thing regardless of the position. Goalies *should* feel a little heat if they don't play well. Second, we're talking about a salary cap and what the best way to maximize the money you have available. Spending 3.5 million is a lot better than spending 6 million if you feel like you can get equal - or better - results on the ice. Third, you don't have to look very hard to find teams that, for one reason or another, had goalies split starts in the regular season and go on to win the Cup. The Wings in '08 and Chicago in '10.
I agree with having competition amongst goalies, and have 2 that can perform (Kings/Blues this year, Preds last year), but I would stick with Fleury over any of the goalies on those two cup winners you mentioned.

Is it unreasonable to think BJ could have a bounce back year next year, and possibly at a cheaper price after the eggs he laid this year? We all know Theissen probably isn't the answer, and the goalie UFA list this summer is far from great. Perhaps Biron could be had, but at what price?

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05-01-2012, 09:10 PM
  #911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
re: mpp9

If you're spending $5 million on a starter you better be absolutely sure that they can carry the load through the regular season AND playoffs. I see nothing positive in investing so much in a starter and then having to spend possibly another million or more on a backup in case the starter ***** the bed, as he's done in 2 of the last 3 playoffs.

In my scenario, you could have Vokoun for $2 million and Harding for $1.5. Both significant raises on their current deals.. And it leaves you with $2.5 million to invest elsewhere.
I still like MAF and am not a big believer in Vokoun (I think he's overrated - not to mention getting old), but I wouldn't complain if we acquired Harding. Still not sure he'd be good enough to carry the mail all playoffs long but if the defense was sturdy enough he could probably get 'er done for a lot cheaper than MAF. I wonder if asking MAF to split time (like STL does) would mentally destroy him or if he'd be a gamer / thrive on the competition a bit.

Too bad we can't get Schneider over here. Smith has another year on his deal in PHX but as long as Tippett is with that team, Smith will be with the team IMO. What's LAs situation? Bernier is supposed to be pretty damn good... can't see him being a backup his whole career.

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05-01-2012, 09:12 PM
  #912
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Unless you have a clear-cut, franchise goalie (Lundqvist, Quick, Rinne, etc) goalie by committee isn't a horrible idea. Play the hot hand until he stumbles.

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05-01-2012, 09:15 PM
  #913
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Unless you have a clear-cut, franchise goalie (Lundqvist, Quick, Rinne, etc) goalie by committee isn't a horrible idea. Play the hot hand until he stumbles.
Worked for STL... until two games ago.

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05-01-2012, 09:23 PM
  #914
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Worked for STL... until two games ago.
Halak is out for the remainder of the 2nd round isn't he? He missed a game or two in the first round.

I think Harding as a back up would push Flower and give us someone to go to if he ***** the bed. Flower played out of his mind at times in the season. If he doesn't believe in the defense he seems to crap himself. Even when the D was playing bad during the season everyone thought they'd turn it around. If the defense goes MIA and isn't coming back I think anyone would overcommit/overplay the puck.

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05-01-2012, 09:41 PM
  #915
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Worked for STL... until two games ago.
If St. Louis gets bounced this round, they will be trading Stewart to get the piece that they think they are missing.

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05-01-2012, 10:00 PM
  #916
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Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
I couldn't disagree more, for a few reasons. First, competition is a good thing regardless of the position. Goalies *should* feel a little heat if they don't play well. Second, we're talking about a salary cap and what the best way is to maximize the money you have available. Spending 3.5 million is a lot better than spending 6 million if you feel like you can get equal - or better - results on the ice. Third, you don't have to look very hard to find teams that, for one reason or another, had goalies split starts in the regular season and go on to win the Cup. The Wings in '08 and Chicago in '10.
The Wings in 08 replaced a hall-a-famer with a hall-a-famer. Besides you take two examples out of how many? Fleury, Thomas, Ward, Khabbibulin, Brodeur, Roy, Belfour ect.... Number ones through out.

The competitiveness has to come from within. Roy & Brodeur were never worried about their spots especially in their later years. They just hated to lose. I don't want a goalie who has to be forced to compete because he doesn't want to lose his job.

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05-01-2012, 10:04 PM
  #917
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I like the concept of adding both Vokoun and Harding (especially since they're both right-catching goalies, so the defense would make a smooth transition from one to the other), but I think it's unrealistic to think 1 team can land arguably the two best UFA goalies on the market this summer.

However, I think we could land one of them, and then maybe land a goalie via trade elsewhere.

I'd like to offer Edmonton Fleury and someone like Cooke, Kennedy or Jeffrey (plus Martin) in a deal for the first overall pick, Dubnyk and a depth defenseman like Theo Peckham. I don't think Edmonton would do this, but they could be tempted.

Vokoun and Dubnyk would be a nice combo. Or maybe Harding and Khabibulin? We could possibly try something with Columbus and give Steve Mason a shot? He's not THAT bad, he needs a change of scenery though. Mason with Vokoun would be an interesting combo.

I'd really like to see this organization move on from Fleury (and cash in on his reputation), but I doubt we're ballsy enough to do it.

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05-01-2012, 10:12 PM
  #918
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
What about trading Fleury (possibly to Tampa Bay) and then signing Vokoun and Harding on one and two year deals respectfully? Huh?

Vokoun & Harding combined would take up less cap space than Fleury alone.
I wouldn't rule out trading Fleury, but only if it enabled us to bring in MORE offense -- not merely keep the players we have (i.e. a Zach Parise type guy).

If we could add another pont-per-game player, or average another goal-for per game, then I would feel comfortable taking a less established guy in goal.

Too bad the goalie market is not so strong as it is flooded with more supply of quality goaltenders than anytime in recent memory, and Fleury coming off a terrible playoff performance, so I don't think we would get much back for him in return unfortunately....besides cap space (though that could be valuable enough, depending on who we could spend it on)

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05-01-2012, 10:16 PM
  #919
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I wouldn't rule out trading Fleury, but only if it enabled us to bring in MORE offense -- not merely keep the players we have (i.e. a Zach Parise type guy).

If we could add another pont-per-game player, or average another goal-for per game, then I would feel comfortable taking a less established guy in goal.

Too bad the goalie market is not so strong as it is flooded with more supply of quality goaltenders than anytime in recent memory, and Fleury coming off a terrible playoff performance, so I don't think we would get much back for him in return unfortunately....besides cap space (though that could be valuable enough, depending on who we could spend it on)
I wouldn't be so sad if they traded Fluery, but I just can't see them doing it.

I could see them trading one of the big 3 and someone else sort of like the Flyers did last year.

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05-01-2012, 10:20 PM
  #920
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
The Wings in 08 replaced a hall-a-famer with a hall-a-famer. Besides you take two examples out of how many? Fleury, Thomas, Ward, Khabbibulin, Brodeur, Roy, Belfour ect.... Number ones through out.
Point is, 2 of the last 5 cup winners split their regular season games between 2 capable starters and went on to win the Cup. I hardly feel like I cherry picked these examples. Also, look at the total number of regular season starts for the goalies that reached the finals in the last 6 years or so. Most, including the ones I'd call legit starters, had relatively light workloads in the regular season. That would suggest, to me, that having two capable netminders is beneficial come playoff time because they're not overworked.

Quote:
The competitiveness has to come from within. Roy & Brodeur were never worried about their spots especially in their later years. They just hated to lose. I don't want a goalie who has to be forced to compete because he doesn't want to lose his job.
Well, that's what most Pens fans are suggesting Fleury needs. A strong backup to push him, rest him and step up in the playoffs if Fleury collapses again. So we may at least be in agreement that Fleury should probably go.

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05-01-2012, 10:24 PM
  #921
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I'm a huge believer in MAF still, so I'm definitely not sold on bringing Vokoun and Harding both. Let alone the fact combined they have ZERO playoff series wins in their careers. Harding I'll give a pass on, but at least Fleury gets us to the post-season unlike Vokoun. I'm all for bringing in Vokoun... but only as a back-up to help ease the load for Fleury.

If Fleury had to be moved, Vokoun-Harding isn't the combo we're looking for. We'd be missing Fleury by the 5th game into the season. Now if Fleury s***ts the bed again next year, I'm all for a change. But the change shouldn't be now, not after he's had 2 team-MVP seasons for us.

Just sign Vokoun at $1.5m or something like that, give him 25ish starts. Fleury won't be fatigued in the playoffs like years past, and I think we'll see it show positively.

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05-01-2012, 10:25 PM
  #922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
Point is, 2 of the last 5 cup winners split their regular season games between 2 capable starters and went on to win the Cup. I hardly feel like I cherry picked these examples. Also, look at the total number of regular season starts for the goalies that reached the finals in the last 6 years or so. Most, including the ones I'd call legit starters, had relatively light workloads in the regular season. That would suggest, to me, that having two capable netminders is beneficial come playoff time because they're not overworked.



Well, that's what most Pens fans are suggesting Fleury needs. A strong backup to push him, rest him and step up in the playoffs if Fleury collapses again. So we may at least be in agreement that Fleury should probably go.
Taking fewer regular season starts is different than having two number one goalies. In the end the coach has established the number 1 goalie & there is no controversy about it. Having two Goalies is like trying to have two Quarterbacks. It's failure waiting to happen.

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05-01-2012, 10:27 PM
  #923
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Originally Posted by Killswitch7187 View Post
I'm a huge believer in MAF still, so I'm definitely not sold on bringing Vokoun and Harding both. Let alone the fact combined they have ZERO playoff series wins in their careers. Harding I'll give a pass on, but at least Fleury gets us to the post-season unlike Vokoun. I'm all for bringing in Vokoun... but only as a back-up to help ease the load for Fleury.

If Fleury had to be moved, Vokoun-Harding isn't the combo we're looking for. We'd be missing Fleury by the 5th game into the season. Now if Fleury s***ts the bed again next year, I'm all for a change. But the change shouldn't be now, not after he's had 2 team-MVP seasons for us.

Just sign Vokoun at $1.5m or something like that, give him 25ish starts. Fleury won't be fatigued in the playoffs like years past, and I think we'll see it show positively.
I agree. Bring in a number 2 & establish that he is being brought in not take Fleurys place but give lessen the load during the regular season. Something BJ didn't do this year.

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05-01-2012, 10:28 PM
  #924
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Since talk has turned to MAF, he are a list of goalies that have bigger caphit than MAF for speculation purposes.

All years remaining on contract are going from next season , 2012-2013, on-

Pekka Rinne-7 for 7 more years (newest contract for a goalie)
Henrik Lundqvist-6.875 for 2 more years
Cam Ward-6.3 for 4 more years
Ryan Miller-6.25 for 2 more years
Niklas Backstrom-6 for 1 more year
Miikka Kiprusoff-5.83 for 2 more years
Ilya Bryzgalov-5.66 for 8 more years
Roberto Luongo-5.33 for 10 more years
Tim Thomas makes same as MAF but has only 1 year left on his contract.

Martin Broduer had a 5.2 hit this season and is a UFA, unknown on if he will keep playing/keep current salary/take a little pay cut/etc.

MAF is currently 9th in league in caphit for his position. Only goalie in off-season that has a chance to pass him, and by all account will either match or exceed him, is Carey Price.

So MAF will almost be a guarantee to be the 9th or 10th in caphit for position.

Now if the Pens do bring in another good goalie alternative, such as Harding or Vokoun, they're looking at around either 2 mil for either player, making the caphit somewhere around 7 for next season. All the above goalies in caphit have back-ups making under 1 mil, except for Flyers, as Sergei Bobrovsky had an ELC that had an originally caphit of 900K that reached 1.7 due to bonuses hit. Cory Schneider will easily clear the 1 mil barrier but it is extremely unlikely that both he and Luongo will be on the team next year. Lindback may just reach 1 mil depending on how much NSH is required to tender on his RFA contract. Carey Price's back-up, Peter Budaj makes just over 1 mil, at 1.15.

So if the Pens go with MAF/one of Vokoun/Harding, they will be paying an extreme premium for the position. I would personally try to move MAF and go another route, possibly the Vokoun/Harding route because the team can't afford to be one of the top spending teams in the league on goaltending with the performance they're getting. They are likely to get similar, if not better, performance for 3.5-4 at the position compared to the around 7 for MAF/good back-up scenario and with the ****** contracts they have on d, saving that 3 mil or so is extremely important.


Last edited by Sivek: 05-01-2012 at 10:36 PM.
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05-01-2012, 10:33 PM
  #925
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Taking fewer regular season starts is different than having two number one goalies. In the end the coach has established the number 1 goalie & there is no controversy about it. Having two Goalies is like trying to have two Quarterbacks. It's failure waiting to happen.
Well, my idea is to bring in two capable netminders and let their performance dictate who is the #1. But splitting starts evenly between two goalies is clearly not a 'failure waiting to happen' if it's resulted in 2 cup victories in recent memory. And comparing goaltenders to quarterbacks is so off base I don't even have the time to refute it.


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