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Offseason discussion continued (Contract chart in Post #1)

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Old
05-01-2012, 10:38 PM
  #926
eXile59
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Well, my idea is to bring in two capable netminders and let their performance dictate who is the #1. It's clearly not a failure waiting to happen if it's resulted in 2 cup victories in recent memory. And comparing goaltenders to quarterbacks is so off base I don't even have the time to refute it.
They have a word for those 2 cup victories. Their called the "outliers". I know they happened in a short time of each other but that's hardly enough to say it's a trend when compared to the last 30 years. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

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05-01-2012, 10:40 PM
  #927
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Since talk of goalies and amount of games played is at hand, here's a repost of something I posted up for the MAF thread.

For what it's worth on the overworking of goalies, Mike Smith appeared in the same amount of games this year (67) as MAF, Jon Quick appeared in 70, Pekka Rinne led the league with 73 games, Craig Anderson would of been neck and neck with Rinne until he missed a couple weeks late in the season, finishing with 63. Pretty sure Anderson was leading or second in league in appearances this year at time of injury. He also played 71 for Colorado during his playoff run with them 2009-10. All have been excellent so far this postseason. From 2008-09 on, MAF has average finish of 8.5 ranking position in games played, every year being between 8-10th in games played.

Crazily, Mikka Kiprussoff played the least amount of games for him in 7-8 years this year, only appearing in 70. I knew he played a lot, but damn that's a lot. The other league leaders in games played this year were Cam Ward (68, led league last with 74), Jonas Hiller (73) and Niemi (68).

Since lockout, there have been Cup winners with an extremely good tandem duo (2011 Bruins Thomas & Rask, 2007 Ducks with JS Giguere & Bryzgalov), teams where the starting position was in the air for a good chunk of the season (2006 Hurricanes & 2010 Blackhawks) and the 2008 Red Wings had two really old guys in Hasek & Osgood split time.

The most "normal" Cup winner was 2009 Pens with MAF playing 62 games in regular season.

Before lockout, the previous 12 champs (didn't want to look back further than that) had a starter go over 60 games 9 times, exceptions being Nikolai Khabibulin appearing in 55 games for TB, Patrick Roy & Stephane Fiset each playing around 40 games in 1996 and a Osgood/Mike Vernon tandem in 1997.

I lean toward the streak since the lockout of a Cup winning goalie playing less than 60 games 5 out of 6 times to be a bit of anomaly and one that has a very good chance of falling this year if any team other the Bruins or Blues wins the Cup. That or teams have begun valuing goalies differently than in the past, not heavily investing in one because of the recent trend of free-talent finds like Tim Thomas/Craig Anderson/Elliot and Smith this year being a less risky investment. All of those guys and some others I didn't mention were acquired on the cheap and have been very productive. Teams may be thinking that putting 5+mil on one goalie is not cost efficient because A)-Salary cap limits spending, so you look for bargains where you can get them B)-If you're paying a goalie a lot and he gets hurt and/or ineffective, you're probably in a scenario where you skimped a bit on your back-up because you don't want to tie a lot of money into a back-up if you're already paying the starter good coin.

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05-01-2012, 11:58 PM
  #928
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Do people really think we would have beat the Flyers with Harding or Vokoun in net?

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05-02-2012, 12:06 AM
  #929
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Assuming Maf was traded to TB, what kinda return we talking about? a 1st round pick+prospect?

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05-02-2012, 12:23 AM
  #930
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Originally Posted by 66-29-33 View Post
Assuming Maf was traded to TB, what kinda return we talking about? a 1st round pick+prospect?
Teddy Purcell is the only realistic roster player they'd trade that I'd want.

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05-02-2012, 12:24 AM
  #931
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Teddy Purcell is the only realistic roster player they'd trade that I'd want.
I'd be interested in Brett Connolly.

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05-02-2012, 07:22 AM
  #932
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Do people really think we would have beat the Flyers with Harding or Vokoun in net?
Maybe, maybe not. But goaltending was certainly the biggest of many problems in that series.. and in recent past series. I do think that between Vokoun & Harding you'll find a goalie that won't literally knock pucks into their own net in crucial playoff games.

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05-02-2012, 08:01 AM
  #933
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Maybe, maybe not. But goaltending was certainly the biggest of many problems in that series.. and in recent past series. I do think that between Vokoun & Harding you'll find a goalie that won't literally knock pucks into their own net in crucial playoff games.
Jacob, I like you're posts and usually agree... but here I have to disagree... How many playoff games/series has Fleury cost us compared to how many he's won for us for the past 6 yrs? (Sans this series) ... If you get rid of Fleury and replace him with Harding and Vokoun, that is a serious risk that it actually pans out... it often doesn't imo... look at Philly with Biron/Esche/Leighton/Boucher etc... you don't get rid of goalies who in recent yrs people had pegged as "team MVP" and "Vezina candidate" because of frustration .. does it excuse his ALL TIME horrendous series? NO... but, everything in that series was just so strange, (our pk, game 4, big leads blown, bad goals, etc) that I don't think its smart to get rid of Fleury just for that. just my opinion (which doesn't mean much to say the least)

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05-02-2012, 10:09 AM
  #934
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Originally Posted by Giant Yankee Pens View Post
Jacob, I like you're posts and usually agree... but here I have to disagree... How many playoff games/series has Fleury cost us compared to how many he's won for us for the past 6 yrs? (Sans this series) ...
We haven't won a single series in which we weren't the better team, goalies excluded. He has stolen less than a handful of games.
And as for all time worst.... he was worse still against Montreal.

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05-02-2012, 10:17 AM
  #935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
Maybe, maybe not. But goaltending was certainly the biggest of many problems in that series.. and in recent past series. I do think that between Vokoun & Harding you'll find a goalie that won't literally knock pucks into their own net in crucial playoff games.
that's not true. I mean come on, Bryz was terrible and the flyers pushed through it. You really think Harding and Vokoun would actually be better than Fleury, a proven goalie, who has had playoff success in the past and has won 40 games multiple times?


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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
We haven't won a single series in which we weren't the better team, goalies excluded. He has stolen less than a handful of games.
And as for all time worst.... he was worse still against Montreal.
what are you basing this off of? Were you around in 2007-2008? Fleury won us basically every series...

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Old
05-02-2012, 10:35 AM
  #936
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post

what are you basing this off of? Were you around in 2007-2008? Fleury won us basically every series...
We've only made the playoffs once since we drafted Fleury?

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05-02-2012, 10:38 AM
  #937
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We've only made the playoffs once since we drafted Fleury?
we've only won one cup with Crosby on the team too, bud.

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Old
05-02-2012, 10:42 AM
  #938
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
we've only won one cup with Crosby on the team too, bud.
Maybe we'd have won more if Fleury would quit crapping the bed in the first or second round.

As for my point, the reason I said what I said was because all I ever see people reference is either a]2007-08 or b]his game 6 and 7 performance against Detroit as proof that Fleury is this money goalie come playoff time. It's as if every other playoff series/game the Pens have played in since he's joined the team is dismissed or ignored outright.

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Old
05-02-2012, 11:12 AM
  #939
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Originally Posted by 66-29-33 View Post
Assuming Maf was traded to TB, what kinda return we talking about? a 1st round pick+prospect?
We're not rebuilding so I wouldn't want Picks or Prospects unless they're accomplished players who are going to have a lengthy career or top picks, i.e #1 round top 10. I'd look for Hedman in return + Conacher. I know Conacher goes against what I said but I think he has huge ability.

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05-02-2012, 11:15 AM
  #940
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Maybe we'd have won more if Fleury would quit crapping the bed in the first or second round.

As for my point, the reason I said what I said was because all I ever see people reference is either a]2007-08 or b]his game 6 and 7 performance against Detroit as proof that Fleury is this money goalie come playoff time. It's as if every other playoff series/game the Pens have played in since he's joined the team is dismissed or ignored outright.
2009 Flyers series. We don't make it out of the first round with an average goalie performance. Biron was very good. Fleury was great.

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Old
05-02-2012, 12:45 PM
  #941
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Maybe we'd have won more if Fleury would quit crapping the bed in the first or second round.

As for my point, the reason I said what I said was because all I ever see people reference is either a]2007-08 or b]his game 6 and 7 performance against Detroit as proof that Fleury is this money goalie come playoff time. It's as if every other playoff series/game the Pens have played in since he's joined the team is dismissed or ignored outright.
If MAF was the only thing wrong with this team than we would have played like the Flyers did in the first round...Bryz was brutal but that rest of that team was great. MAF was brutal and 75% of the other Pens were brutal. You can overcome the struggles of a goaltender if youre a good team. Thats what the Flyers did. Us on the other hand...we were a bad team that series. Top to bottom.

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05-02-2012, 12:57 PM
  #942
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
If MAF was the only thing wrong with this team than we would have played like the Flyers did in the first round...Bryz was brutal but that rest of that team was great. MAF was brutal and 75% of the other Pens were brutal. You can overcome the struggles of a goaltender if youre a good team. Thats what the Flyers did. Us on the other hand...we were a bad team that series. Top to bottom.
anyone trying to put the blame on one player nomatter who is just wrong. even our best players played like........well you know what i mean.

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Old
05-02-2012, 01:16 PM
  #943
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Rob Rossi's latest tweet.

I hope it was a joke. But you can never tell with Rossi


Last edited by Shrimper: 05-02-2012 at 01:26 PM.
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Old
05-02-2012, 01:43 PM
  #944
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Rob Rossi's latest tweet.

I hope it was a joke. But you can never tell with Rossi
What did he say? i don't use twitter.

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Old
05-02-2012, 01:50 PM
  #945
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
We're not rebuilding so I wouldn't want Picks or Prospects unless they're accomplished players who are going to have a lengthy career or top picks, i.e #1 round top 10. I'd look for Hedman in return + Conacher. I know Conacher goes against what I said but I think he has huge ability.
I dunno if Fleury has Hedman value. Kinda hard to tell what his value is. A 27 yr old with 226 career regular season wins, 43 career playoffs wins in 75 games, 1 cup, 2 finals appearances, 5M cap hit for several more seasons. Maybe a team would take a chance on that? i dunno. I'm still going to take 1 more chance on Fleury with hopefully a fixed Defense. The guy's still 27, and on his way to a 500 win career if he can get 25 or more wins per season the rest of his career. Fleury has a good resume.

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05-02-2012, 02:30 PM
  #946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
Rob Rossi's latest tweet.

I hope it was a joke. But you can never tell with Rossi
Quote:
Rob Rossi ‏ @RobRossi_Trib
If #pens get Subban for Martin and Michalek, does that confirm that Lemieux and Bergevin are BFFs ?
That one?

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Old
05-02-2012, 02:55 PM
  #947
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Fleury's value isn't going to be much since few teams need a #1 netminder. In fact, only TB and Toronto do off the top of my head. That said, the Pens also don't *have* to trade him, and GMs are stupid, so who knows.

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05-02-2012, 03:00 PM
  #948
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Do people really think we would have beat the Flyers with Harding or Vokoun in net?
I think we would've beaten the Flyers if we had a goalie that didn't let in so many bad goals and made the occasional big save, regardless of who that goalie might be. MAF crapped the bed in that series, and although we shouldn't point the finger solely at him, it definitely did not help our cause AT ALL.

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Old
05-02-2012, 03:06 PM
  #949
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Do people really think we would have beat the Flyers with Harding or Vokoun in net?
It wouldn't have been any worse, that is for certain. As bad as our team d was, Fleury was worse. A goaltender with even a touch of puck handling skills would've been nice too. Probably could've helped out the likes of Martin and, to a lesser extent, Niskanen (nothing was going to help Lovejoy, imo).

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05-02-2012, 03:07 PM
  #950
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That one?
Pens could get more for those 2 IMO, although that would give us alot of cap space. I guess Subban signs a 4M deal in his next deal. But it's Rossi....

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