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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

U18 day 9 SEMIFINALS Fin-Swe & Can-USA

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Old
04-20-2012, 05:18 PM
  #201
razor ray
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Originally Posted by Talus View Post
the US is the class of the tournament,they gear themselves every year for this one event.

they are housed in Ann Arbor Michigan usually for 2 yrs and practice on the big ice surface.

they are expected to win and they do.
Another great win for USA. Lets hope they could bring home the gold!

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04-20-2012, 06:19 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
It would have been better described as our "C" team. Even then we got to the Semi's and lost by one goal to the best team in the tournament. If the American player had received the 5 Minute Major he deserved things may have turned out differently. Not bad for a team thrown together in the last 2 weeks.
Replacing one 50 point guy in CHL with another doesn't make much difference. It's not about B or C team, it's just you have depth. This year's Russia wasn't good but it also could've been called B team, I would count at least two lines of players whom I'd choose over two lines of these guys but it was coach's decision... and who knows if they'd play better if actual top performers of MHL would be taken instead of these guys. Unless you have a ton of kids of this age scoring over 100 points in CHL this year who weren't here (or just over 80) I can't see how it's a C team.....

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04-20-2012, 06:37 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
Replacing one 50 point guy in CHL with another doesn't make much difference. It's not about B or C team, it's just you have depth. This year's Russia wasn't good but it also could've been called B team, I would count at least two lines of players whom I'd choose over two lines of these guys but it was coach's decision... and who knows if they'd play better if actual top performers of MHL would be taken instead of these guys. Unless you have a ton of kids of this age scoring over 100 points in CHL this year who weren't here (or just over 80) I can't see how it's a C team.....
I am not going to argue with you about something most hockey people know. This was a team of Canada's lesser lights thrown together on the fly. The timing of this tournament has ruined it for everyone.

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04-20-2012, 06:43 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
I am not going to argue with you about something most hockey people know. This was a team of Canada's lesser lights thrown together on the fly. The timing of this tournament has ruined it for everyone.
Pushing the tournament further would ruin it for players based in Europe, because they already finished their seasons. They would have to just train for weeks (some maybe longer). This is always about compromise.

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04-20-2012, 06:46 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by zorz View Post
Pushing the tournament further would ruin it for players based in Europe, because they already finished their seasons. They would have to just train for weeks (some maybe longer). This is always about compromise.
But what about Canada? Why are we always sacrificing?

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04-20-2012, 06:53 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
But what about Canada? Why are we always sacrificing?
Well that's not question for me, I didn't make the decision ;-)

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04-20-2012, 06:53 PM
  #207
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Everybody is sacrificing as more Euros and Americans are playing in the CHL. For most people the U18 isn't about who wins and loses anyways, rather its an opportunity to view and judge prospects.

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04-20-2012, 06:53 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Talus View Post
the US is the class of the tournament,they gear themselves every year for this one event.

they are housed in Ann Arbor Michigan usually for 2 yrs and practice on the big ice surface.

they are expected to win and they do.
Art Berglund, former director of AHAUS, made the decision a couple of decades ago, based on the success achieved in the 1980 Olympics, to adopt the old Soviet model for training National Teams for international tournaments. It was a smart move, and over time, you can see the success that the US has achieved in world junior events. The US made the decision to become more competitive, and to win international tournaments whenever possible. Its the difference between Olympic-level training and the kind that is done in various pro sports leagues. It works, and they deserve congratulations for pulling it off!

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04-20-2012, 06:56 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by zorz View Post
I didn't make the decision ;-)
That is not what I heard.


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04-20-2012, 06:58 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Hanji View Post
Everybody is sacrificing as more Euros and Americans are playing in the CHL. For most people the U18 isn't about who wins and loses anyways, rather its an opportunity to view and judge prospects.
That's fair but no one cares because it does not include the best of the best - it isn't even close. Heck, over the years, even the American fans have lost interest and take far less pride in the wins. This tournament, at this time of year, is a Lose-Lose.

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04-20-2012, 07:13 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
That's fair but no one cares because it does not include the best of the best - it isn't even close. Heck, over the years, even the American fans have lost interest and take far less pride in the wins. This tournament, at this time of year, is a Lose-Lose.
Nah. Apart from hardcore fans no one cares because players are too young for it to matter. Whats next, U15? I mean even the U20 isn't big outside of Canada.

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04-20-2012, 07:20 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Hanji View Post
Nah. Apart from hardcore fans no one cares because players are too young for it to matter. Whats next, U15? I mean even the U20 isn't big outside of Canada.
I disagree. In previous years many American posters took pride in this tournament. They have slowly disappeared. Now we are down to a handful of die hards.

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04-20-2012, 07:34 PM
  #213
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Id say all HF posters are diehards, especially if taken the time on an u18 thread.

I mean how many people care about the Ivan Hlinka or knows it exists? Thats U18 best against best. TSN doesnt even bother to broadcast it.

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04-20-2012, 07:39 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Hanji View Post
Id say all HF posters are diehards, especially if taken the time on an u18 thread.

I mean how many people care about the Ivan Hlinka or knows it exists? Thats U18 best against best. TSN doesnt even bother to broadcast it.
You got me there.


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04-21-2012, 12:50 AM
  #215
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damn, thought the semis were tomorrow. Reading through the thread I know who won but I'm still disappointed I missed this. I'm really starting to like watching usa vs sweden finals

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04-21-2012, 12:58 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Art Berglund, former director of AHAUS, made the decision a couple of decades ago, based on the success achieved in the 1980 Olympics, to adopt the old Soviet model for training National Teams for international tournaments. It was a smart move, and over time, you can see the success that the US has achieved in world junior events. The US made the decision to become more competitive, and to win international tournaments whenever possible. Its the difference between Olympic-level training and the kind that is done in various pro sports leagues. It works, and they deserve congratulations for pulling it off!
I agree that it is a good move in terms of winning junior tournaments, it certainly gives them a huge advantage. I don't think it really makes a difference though in terms of developing players. Just like the Soviets the individual players are going to look better if they are playing against teams that didn't have the same prep time. Once they enter leagues and the playing field is leveled then you get a better picture of where they are at in terms of player development.

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04-21-2012, 06:50 AM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Hanji View Post
Id say all HF posters are diehards, especially if taken the time on an u18 thread.

I mean how many people care about the Ivan Hlinka or knows it exists? Thats U18 best against best. TSN doesnt even bother to broadcast it.
That's not always the case, there's usually a U-20 tournament going on at the same time and e.g. Finland picks the best players that could play at the Ivan Hlinka Tournament to play there instead. Meaning that it's highly likely the likes of Barkov, Ristolainen etc. will be at the U-20 tournament or with their club teams during the Ivan Hlinka.

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04-21-2012, 08:53 AM
  #218
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Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
But what about Canada? Why are we always sacrificing?
Well, Hockey Canada's probably pretty happy to have such competitive junior leagues instead. That's the "sacrifice". But league hockey in Europe will probably remain September-April and those leagues are in majority.

Who knows though, back in time we only played October-March and it seems like we're constantly pushing the schedule a little bit further in the spring. If European hockey seasons ever go into May(not unthinkable) I wouldn't be surprised if they move the World Champs(with U18 simultaneously) to September. WC first two weeks in September > NHL camp/European seasons start > NHL season starts.

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04-21-2012, 10:21 AM
  #219
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I think the IIHF likes having different tournaments that different areas of the world dominate - in order to create interest.

The U-18's, the U.S. dominates.
The WJR's, Canada dominates.
The WC, Europe dominates.

They want something for everyone.

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04-21-2012, 11:07 AM
  #220
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I would rank the players on this Canadian team as follows. Graded A, B and C. 8 A, 3 B, 12 C.

However the real point in my mind is seeing how these players perform. How do they stack up against other countries' players. Are they improving, what do they need to improve etc.

It's an evaluation tourney in its present format.

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04-21-2012, 11:13 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by canuck2010 View Post
I would rank the players on this Canadian team as follows. Graded A, B and C. 8 A, 3 B, 12 C.

However the real point in my mind is seeing how these players perform. How do they stack up against other countries' players. Are they improving, what do they need to improve etc.

It's an evaluation tourney in its present format.
That is a good way of looking at it. It gives players, not in the Memorial Cup, a chance to show their wears.

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04-21-2012, 11:30 AM
  #222
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I think NHL scouts also prefer the timing of the tournament. The last thing they'd want is to scout the European kids coming off a 3 week lay-off.

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04-21-2012, 12:40 PM
  #223
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To be honest, I'm always surprised at how poorly Canada performs at this tournament. I know quite well that they don't have all their best players but they've got a deep enough talent pool that the players they bring have enough talent to show better. At the U20s Canada takes a month before the tournament to have players get together and pick a real team so they remain very competitive despite losing top players to the NHL. If they could find some way of getting U18 players together over the course of the season for some tournament play it might do them well.

It's still annoying to see the way so many Canadians say this tournament doesn't mean anything because they can't bring their best. I'm not going to make an argument that the Ivan Hlinka isn't relevant because the US doesn't bring it's best. Take these tournaments for what they are. I am proud of the US achievements at this tournament while acknowledging the advantages we have in it.

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04-21-2012, 12:49 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
That's not always the case, there's usually a U-20 tournament going on at the same time and e.g. Finland picks the best players that could play at the Ivan Hlinka Tournament to play there instead. Meaning that it's highly likely the likes of Barkov, Ristolainen etc. will be at the U-20 tournament or with their club teams during the Ivan Hlinka.
And the US actually plays with a B squad there, donīt they. So basically the Ivan Hlinka isnīt anymore of a best on best than the U18 WC - at the U18 WC Canada has a B team (well not even completely a B team) and other teams miss some players from CHL or European pro play-offs and at the Ivan Hlinka US plays with a B team and European teams miss some of their players that are playing at the U20 tournaments.

Does anyone please know the groups for next year? The system for determining the groups itīs the same like in the WJC, right?

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04-21-2012, 01:05 PM
  #225
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Now that I've got that out of the way...

Obviously I'm happy with the results for the US team so far. They've relied on a strong defensive corps and solid team defense with some opportunistic offense and it's lead to good results. It's pretty much exactly what needed to happen for the team to do what they've done as they have no clear offensive leaders up front.

Seth Jones is playing the best hockey I've ever seen out of him. He's been a force all over the ice and it's great to see him progressing like this. I think I may have been underestimating him in a number of ways but it's clear that he's a player to be very excited about.

I've seen a lot of praise for Trouba as well but I have to say I was hoping for a bit more from him. He's a gifted player skill wise but he hasn't made his presence felt offensively the way I think he's capable of. On top of that, he's made some poor decisions with the puck that could have really hurt had it not been for the strong team defense being played.

The rest of the defense has done well. Skjei is still a great skater though I don't see the same upside I saw in him last season. Grzelcyk is a nice player and he should be very good in college. I had hoped to see a larger role for Will Butcher as I really liked him in my viewings of the U17 team but he's being sheltered here a bit. The one real disappointment for me is Pat Sieloff as he looks very shaky in many situations.

The forwards are about what I expected. No high-end skill in the group but they're solid as a team and can create enough offense to get by with their solid team play. There's no pure goal scorer or playmaker amongst them but they cycle well and have some guys who will go hard to the net and that's what forwards who aren't overwhelmingly skilled need to do. It really does make me hope that the emphasis on skill development in US youth hockey will take further hold though.

The goalies haven't been seriously tested but they've made the stops they needed to make.

It's hard to see them beating the Swedes but I felt the same way last year so who knows.

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