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Quebec tuition crisis thread

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Old
04-21-2012, 09:22 AM
  #101
Corky
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To Ron Fournier...

I've read your comments on the strike on this thread and on the Habs board as well and all I have to say is that I hope your fellow strikers are not as delusional as you are. If they are, we are in for an entire summer of protests that will ultimately lead to nothing else than a lost semester for students that actually did not want to boycott and a lot of money wasted repairing the city after countless acts of vandalism.

In regards to your position on the illegitimacy of the current government, are you aware that the majority of the population does not support your strike. Charest's position on this subject and the mindless actions of the student community are actually helping him gain votes. What will you say if Charest is elected again? Will you still call his government illegitimate?.

Also, I have seen your comments on Plan Nord and mining rights, and all I have to say is don't talk about something you do not understand. I work in the natural ressources sector and my comments to those that say we are not taxing resources company enough is:
- Tax them more and they won't set a foot here. Mining is a cyclical industry and while it is making massive profits now, it won't necessarily in 5 to 10 years. The whole point of the business is to make investments when times are good that will help you go through the bad times.

Here, I'm just ranting but this whole student protest thing stinks of the left wing ideology that everything should be free for the lower to middle-class and the rich should pay for everything. This same left wing class is against subsidies to companies that want to set up shop here and think we should tax them as much as possible. Basically, the rich should pay for everything, but let's make it as hard as possible for anyone to become rich in this province.

When there are not enough rich people to pay for services anymore, you have to go the the debt market. When your debt level becomes unsustainable, then look at Greece if you want to know what happens then.

This province is going downhill fast if we do not wake up and smell the coffee soon....Although Charest has made dumb moves in the past (like any prime minister), I appreciate his efforts to create wealth and spread social services cost more equally.


Last edited by Corky: 04-21-2012 at 09:28 AM.
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04-21-2012, 10:41 AM
  #102
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Personally, I don't think Charest's main aim is to spread social services costs more equally.

The main thrust of governments in the last 20 years has been to create a positive environment for business while competing with other nations for the investment dollars. Governments have been reducing the tax burden on business while cutting spending on public programs. Those that get hit the most are those with the least influence in the political or economic sphere.

Aside from globalization, the accounting deal in Canada for taxation purposes has been to achieve a corporate tax rate (before breaks) of 25%, with 15 going to the feds and 10 going to the provinces. Federally the Liberals brought the rate down from 27 to 21% and Harper took it from 21 to 15%. The provinces have had mixed results in achieving their 10% goals, Ontario recently procrastinated in going from 11.x% to 10%. Provinces have also seen sales tax revenues decline by accepting the business-friendly HST. Theory has it that those provinces that don't make it will be less competitive than those that do, by attracting less investment. Maybe....

All this has been done in a bit more than a decade and it has put much pressure on public programs and debt levels. The financial crisis recession has been a new good way for governments to explain away their belt-tightening behaviors, much like GMs use the cap to explain to fans why they make certain trades that aren't necessarily optimum for the team.

As for the strike, I will agree that the majority of the population aren't buying it. I've been defending the strike (using decent arguments as a devil's advocate and people stop and go 'yeah ok', because they don't have any counter-arguments for mine at the moment) but I see their minds are made up already. (I'm not hardcore either way on this issue, I just always tend to argue for the underdog)

As a rule, I think university students are perceived as being 'favored' elements of society (they are getting a positive break with their education that will lead to some job advantages) so most people in the general population aren't leaning towards sympathizing with them; they might have a propensity to see them as 'whiners' that already have got a break, that maybe they didn't get. So they aren't starting on a positive note with general public opinion.

I think the students have lost this round, but the strike might continue for political payback purposes (for the next time). I don't think the Charest government figures they are losing this (they see they are winning), but there is a negative in that they look powerless to control it, and there are many other image negatives distantly associated with this economic unrest and unhappiness being channeled through the student protests.


Last edited by Puck: 04-21-2012 at 11:00 AM.
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Old
04-21-2012, 11:09 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by DeathFromAbove View Post
Why should the government care if students are protesting? Post-secondary education is not a right, these people are paying money for an education and if they choose not to attend classes that's between them and the university.
Because it costs them money? It is a logistical nightmare?

It has worked many times in the past in Quebec.

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Originally Posted by Johnny LaRue View Post
The students claim to care about their education, but they can't be bothered to show up to class. It's nothing more than that and anyone who thinks this is more than an opportunity to blow off work and responsibility is lying to himself.
Give me a freaking break Johnny. You have no idea what the **** you are even talking about.

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If they want lower tuitions, they should vote for a different government.
And they will, but that is not as effective as this.

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Bench-marking with other provinces is now irrelevant? That's a novel view.
Don't know if you have noticed or not, but Quebec has a much higher degree of social democracy than the ROC.

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All Quebeckers care about when it comes to the West is that they get their handouts from the Western provinces.
Hey look! Another arrogant Anglo ignorant comment about Quebec.

Quote:
Speaking of handouts, I think you have a lot to gain from tuitions in Quebec universities being frozen again, no?
Actually I don't. It doesn't even really affect my tuition because:

A) I am an out of province student.
B) I finish next year anyway.

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04-21-2012, 11:45 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Puck View Post
Personally, I don't think Charest's main aim is to spread social services costs more equally.
That's an opinion and I respect it, but he has stated that he wants the students to share a larger burden of the education costs. For me, this is spreading more evenly social services costs.

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Originally Posted by Puck View Post
The main thrust of governments in the last 20 years has been to create a positive environment for business while competing with other nations for the investment dollars. Governments have been reducing the tax burden on business while cutting spending on public programs. Those that get hit the most are those with the least influence in the political or economic sphere.
On your first point, government has actually increased spending on public programs since cost of education and health has been going up while users contribution has been frozen (or non-existent).

On your second point, while this was probably true in the 1970's, it is not anymore. Companies in Quebec are pushed to the brink of bankruptcy by unions that push working conditions to unsustainable levels. Associations of students have blocked all previous attempt by the government to raise tuition fees. Government protect these associations with anti-scab laws and the likes.

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Originally Posted by Puck View Post
Aside from globalization, the accounting deal in Canada for taxation purposes has been to achieve a corporate tax rate (before breaks) of 25%, with 15 going to the feds and 10 going to the provinces. Federally the Liberals brought the rate down from 27 to 21% and Harper took it from 21 to 15%. The provinces have had mixed results in achieving their 10% goals, Ontario recently procrastinated in going from 11.x% to 10%. Provinces have also seen sales tax revenues decline by accepting the business-friendly HST. Theory has it that those provinces that don't make it will be less competitive than those that do, by attracting less investment. Maybe....[/B]
I am not into the details that much for taxation in Canada so I can't really comment.

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Originally Posted by Puck View Post
I think the students have lost this round, but the strike might continue for political payback purposes (for the next time). I don't think the Charest government figures they are losing this (they see they are winning), but there is a negative in that they look powerless to control it, and there are many other image negatives distantly associated with this economic unrest and unhappiness being channeled through the student protests.
I would say that they look like the first government in decades that is actually standing up to a minority that's willing to disturb order to benefit at the expense of the majority.

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04-21-2012, 12:40 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Corky View Post
That's an opinion and I respect it, but he has stated that he wants the students to share a larger burden of the education costs. For me, this is spreading more evenly social services costs.



On your first point, government has actually increased spending on public programs since cost of education and health has been going up while users contribution has been frozen (or non-existent).

On your second point, while this was probably true in the 1970's, it is not anymore. Companies in Quebec are pushed to the brink of bankruptcy by unions that push working conditions to unsustainable levels. Associations of students have blocked all previous attempt by the government to raise tuition fees. Government protect these associations with anti-scab laws and the likes.



I am not into the details that much for taxation in Canada so I can't really comment.



I would say that they look like the first government in decades that is actually standing up to a minority that's willing to disturb order to benefit at the expense of the majority.
We can argue until the cows come home on public purse spending but I think it's safe to say that right-wingers disagree with left-wingers on the benefits of many programs. The role of govt. IMHO is to be the objective arbitrator between competing interests for wealth-resources. It's success in that role has been so-so IMO, politically those with the bigger voice tend to get heard more easily than those without.

For just one item, for instance, I don't think evidence on anti-scab legislation proves your point of view necessarily. Actually, evidence indicates jurisdictions with such legislation have had as much or more labour peace. Most academic studies on the topic don't support your point of view, although I know many believe it. The historical evidence actually points to longer work-stoppage disruptions compared to jurisdictions without such legislation. I know someone in business would perceive that such a law might give the employee an unfair strategic advantage in any industrial relations struggle, but records show actually the opposite effect occurs (disruptions are fewer and less time-consuming). Not everything actually plays out the way people perceive them to be.

Some public programs have expanded, but on the whole, we have seen a general clawback of many social benefits over the years. Most 'social' advances made during the post-WWII era have come to a halt in the nineties. While some groups have benefited in the last 2 decades, others are worse off. On the whole, issues regarding equitable distribution of the growing global economic pie have been unequal. Failure to address these concerns are going to cause more headaches down the road.

IMHO, if you are going to support one social program out of the many options available, it should be education. Ideologically, if you tend to be one that dislikes public programs, education should be the last one on your list of bugbears, of the lot. As someone mentioned here earlier, at least you can tell someone unsuccessful in life that is whining, that you gave him the opportunity and the tools to better themselves and they blew it on their own accord. If only those with the financial resources to get by can do it, it isn't universally accessible.


Last edited by Puck: 04-21-2012 at 12:51 PM.
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Old
04-21-2012, 12:54 PM
  #106
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Jean Charest lol

One could be tempted to say he's a great politician (in the getting elected sense) but he had no competition all these years.

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04-21-2012, 01:14 PM
  #107
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Jean Charest lol

One could be tempted to say he's a great politician (in the getting elected sense) but he had no competition all these years.
Eh, he would have been better than Kim Campbell

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04-21-2012, 03:11 PM
  #108
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Saw these on twitter but I don't know what they stand for, help please?
#polqc #assnat #ggi

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04-21-2012, 03:30 PM
  #109
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assnat = assemblée nationale
ggi = grève générale illimitée (unlimited general strike)
polqc = Quebec police

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky View Post
In regards to your position on the illegitimacy of the current government, are you aware that the majority of the population does not support your strike. Charest's position on this subject and the mindless actions of the student community are actually helping him gain votes. What will you say if Charest is elected again? Will you still call his government illegitimate?.
Polls change and I doubt he gained votes with yesterday's situation and comments. To me the longer this crisis goes on, the more Charest's incompetence and inaction will appear clear to the population, regardless of who wins the battle. Now with the serious corruption allegations that concern the PLQ and Charest himself, especially regarding the Plan Nord, if people are ever dumb enough to re-elect him I will have understood that what people really want is to get screwed by a big red liberal dick and in that regard the Liberals will be legitimate.

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Originally Posted by Corky View Post
Also, I have seen your comments on Plan Nord and mining rights, and all I have to say is don't talk about something you do not understand. I work in the natural ressources sector and my comments to those that say we are not taxing resources company enough is:
- Tax them more and they won't set a foot here. Mining is a cyclical industry and while it is making massive profits now, it won't necessarily in 5 to 10 years. The whole point of the business is to make investments when times are good that will help you go through the bad times.

When there are not enough rich people to pay for services anymore, you have to go the the debt market. When your debt level becomes unsustainable, then look at Greece if you want to know what happens then.
I've studied the Québec mining legislation in details. It is based off an 1800's american gold rush principle: free mining, which means the State priorizes mining exploitation by giving free access to Québec's natural ressources. The last time this law was modified was in the 1940's. Any government that respects his citizens' intelligence is going to change its 1800's-spirited mining legislation before engaging itself in a huge mining project.

Also, you bring the argument that taxing mining companies more is going make them go away. This is funny because BC, as I said earlier, has exploration mining royalties 30 000 times higher on average and get billions from them while québec makes approximately 1 million a year.
I don't know for you but this makes me question wether or not it is true that higher taxation is going to make these companies flee because as a government that respects its citizens, the BC gov established a system where companies have to make the highest bid to get a mining claim and guess what: their mining industry is flourishing. On the other hand, Québec gives its claims away for 0.10$(!!!) to anyone who requests them. As someone who works in the natural ressources business I can see how you don't want that to change, but just tell me why BC can make companies actually pay money for their ressources but if we do companies will go away.


Last edited by RonFournier: 04-21-2012 at 04:00 PM.
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Old
04-21-2012, 03:45 PM
  #110
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All Quebeckers care about when it comes to the West is that they get their handouts from the Western provinces.
I know its slightly off topic, but if you're going to bring equalization into this please understand how it works. Other provinces give Quebec NOTHING. That's $0.00 CDN from all the western provinces to quebec.
Important nuance given the nature of this discussion I feel.

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04-21-2012, 03:49 PM
  #111
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Because it costs them money? It is a logistical nightmare?

It has worked many times in the past in Quebec.
And what of the students who just want to attend class and actually get an education? Or are your beliefs more important than theirs?

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04-21-2012, 03:58 PM
  #112
RonFournier
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And what of the students who just want to attend class and actually get an education? Or are your beliefs more important than theirs?
They voted and the majority of their program or association voted for the strike.

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04-21-2012, 04:05 PM
  #113
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And what of the students who just want to attend class and actually get an education? Or are your beliefs more important than theirs?
Votes occur within each department, in addition, they vote every week to continue or not continue the strike. If there is a majority of people who don't want to strike, they can go ahead and vote it down.

I am not on strike. I voted for the unlimited strike at the GA for AUS McGill, but we lost, so we went back to class.

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04-21-2012, 04:58 PM
  #114
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To Ron...

If the system in BC was that good and 100% applicable to Quebec, we would probably copy it. Some people also refer to the mining tax system in Australia and are saying that Quebec should do the same thing. I know for a fact that the system in Australia is not applicable here for reasons I won't enumerate here. Charest is trying to put a system in place that works for Quebec.

I guess one of the main reason why we disagree is that you're under the impression that Charest is an incompetent that is just out there to screw the Qc population. I tend to think that most politicians are extremely smart and would make a lot more money in the private sector (that includes Charest). He's doing what he thinks is best for the province but you just can't make decisions that will please everyone.

Some people in Qc think Amir Khadir is the solution but I have yet to hear him say one thing that makes sense to me. I'm sure the guy is not an idiot if he got to where he is now, he just has opinions that vary greatly from mine.

At the end of the day, you try to vote for the party that you think will give you the most bang for your buck and you have to accept that when arguing with some people, agreeing to disagreeing is often the best solution.

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04-21-2012, 05:00 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by RonFournier View Post
They voted and the majority of their program or association voted for the strike.
It's not a strike, It's a boycott....Students that voted no to the strike should be allowed to go to class.

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04-21-2012, 05:27 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonFournier View Post
assnat = assemblée nationale
ggi = grève générale illimitée (unlimited general strike)
polqc = Quebec police



Polls change and I doubt he gained votes with yesterday's situation and comments. To me the longer this crisis goes on, the more Charest's incompetence and inaction will appear clear to the population, regardless of who wins the battle. Now with the serious corruption allegations that concern the PLQ and Charest himself, especially regarding the Plan Nord, if people are ever dumb enough to re-elect him I will have understood that what people really want is to get screwed by a big red liberal dick and in that regard the Liberals will be legitimate.



I've studied the Québec mining legislation in details. It is based off an 1800's american gold rush principle: free mining, which means the State priorizes mining exploitation by giving free access to Québec's natural ressources. The last time this law was modified was in the 1940's. Any government that respects his citizens' intelligence is going to change its 1800's-spirited mining legislation before engaging itself in a huge mining project.

Also, you bring the argument that taxing mining companies more is going make them go away. This is funny because BC, as I said earlier, has exploration mining royalties 30 000 times higher on average and get billions from them while québec makes approximately 1 million a year.
I don't know for you but this makes me question wether or not it is true that higher taxation is going to make these companies flee because as a government that respects its citizens, the BC gov established a system where companies have to make the highest bid to get a mining claim and guess what: their mining industry is flourishing. On the other hand, Québec gives its claims away for 0.10$(!!!) to anyone who requests them. As someone who works in the natural ressources business I can see how you don't want that to change, but just tell me why BC can make companies actually pay money for their ressources but if we do companies will go away.
Your sound like someone who just read a book and has formulated an opinion without any real world experience. That sir is the difference between what they call education and knowledge. It's quite obvious which side you are arguing from given your unwavering support for the strike.

Once again your theory of making the resource companies pay sounds great on paper but hold little creedance when it comes real world application. You should ask the people of Alberta just how popular and effective Ed Stelmachs raise in royalty rates went over. Resource companies jumped the border to SK & BC leaving Alberta behind. The PC's were forced to retract and the decision was ultimately the end of Stelmach and perhaps the party as this issue is what kicked the Wildrose in to gear. I also suggest you examine the Labour parties efforts in Australia to raise royalty rates. I'll give you a hint the outcomes were not much different.

Once again quite arguing from a textbook or from some separatist dogma and look at things from a pragmatic and realistic perspective. You've created a caricature of yourself which basically paints the picture of that crazy fanatical separatist that the ROC loves to portray. You sir are your own worst enemy.

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04-21-2012, 06:22 PM
  #117
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It's not a strike, It's a boycott....Students that voted no to the strike should be allowed to go to class.
*sigh* Not this again...

A boycott is according to the Free Dictionary: "To abstain from or act together in abstaining from using, buying, or dealing with as an expression of protest or disfavor or as a means of coercion." So, at first glance, yeah it sounds like that.

Here's where it differs completely: The situation right now comes not from a spontaneous action, but from something institutionalized in the system, with students associations recognized by the Departments they come from, and by agreements, Universities are bound to recognized the outcome of the vote from these associations. Like, you know... A strike. And no boycott I can think of.

Also, a boycott would only in this case affects classes, but it's not the case. It's every single thing that needs the approval of the students associations that is paralyzed.


Last edited by Garo: 04-21-2012 at 06:31 PM.
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04-21-2012, 06:44 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Puck View Post

For just one item, for instance, I don't think evidence on anti-scab legislation proves your point of view necessarily. Actually, evidence indicates jurisdictions with such legislation have had as much or more labour peace. Most academic studies on the topic don't support your point of view, although I know many believe it. The historical evidence actually points to longer work-stoppage disruptions compared to jurisdictions without such legislation. I know someone in business would perceive that such a law might give the employee an unfair strategic advantage in any industrial relations struggle, but records show actually the opposite effect occurs (disruptions are fewer and less time-consuming). Not everything actually plays out the way people perceive them to be.
I honestly haven't looked at the stats but it is definitely possible that there are less disruptions with an anti-scab law. The reason is exactly as you state it, it gives employees an unfair advantage. You need a company that has very healthy cash flows to survive a strike in Quebec. Most will generally give in to the union demand knowing that they will lose more money by allowing a strike or a lockout. Other companies have lots of money and can afford a strike or lockout, like we are currently seeing with Rio Tinto in Alma.

This is not sustainable because as we have seen recently, companies eventually move out of Qc to either go the the US or some emerging country. This is when the union goes out and cries to the government that it's not fair. Unfortunately, most unions do not know when enough is enough.

Anyway, getting off-topic...

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Originally Posted by Puck View Post
Some public programs have expanded, but on the whole, we have seen a general clawback of many social benefits over the years. Most 'social' advances made during the post-WWII era have come to a halt in the nineties. While some groups have benefited in the last 2 decades, others are worse off. On the whole, issues regarding equitable distribution of the growing global economic pie have been unequal. Failure to address these concerns are going to cause more headaches down the road.
You're talking global, I'm talking Quebec. Most people in Quebec do not pay taxes, it's a tiny amount of the population that pays for something like 80% of total taxes (I don't have the exact numbers). I agree with you that this is not fair, but we probably disagree on who's getting screwed.

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Originally Posted by Puck View Post
IMHO, if you are going to support one social program out of the many options available, it should be education. Ideologically, if you tend to be one that dislikes public programs, education should be the last one on your list of bugbears, of the lot. As someone mentioned here earlier, at least you can tell someone unsuccessful in life that is whining, that you gave him the opportunity and the tools to better themselves and they blew it on their own accord. If only those with the financial resources to get by can do it, it isn't universally accessible.
I think by asking the students to pay 17% of their tuition cost, we are supporting education. If you keep a tuition freze on, you'll just encourage young adults to study just for the sake of studying, which is a total waste of taxpayers money. If you want to be more cultivated, read a book for god's sake.

What the students are telling us by refusing to pay their fair share of tuition is that their education is a great investment for society, but a bad investment for themselves (investment too large for potential payoff). Sorry, but I really don't get that logic....

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04-21-2012, 06:47 PM
  #119
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You're talking global, I'm talking Quebec. Most people in Quebec do not pay taxes, it's a tiny amount of the population that pays for something like 80% of total taxes (I don't have the exact numbers).


Source please.

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04-21-2012, 06:50 PM
  #120
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*sigh* Not this again...

A boycott is according to the Free Dictionary: "To abstain from or act together in abstaining from using, buying, or dealing with as an expression of protest or disfavor or as a means of coercion." So, at first glance, yeah it sounds like that.

Here's where it differs completely: The situation right now comes not from a spontaneous action, but from something institutionalized in the system, with students associations recognized by the Departments they come from, and by agreements, Universities are bound to recognized the outcome of the vote from these associations. Like, you know... A strike. And no boycott I can think of.

Also, a boycott would only in this case affects classes, but it's not the case. It's every single thing that needs the approval of the students associations that is paralyzed.
The fact that it has always been done like that in the past does not make it right....You pay for a service, you should be allowed to get it, it's as simple as that.

And don't get me started on these strikes votes, they are a total joke....If you guys like democracy so much, then let the government that has been chosen by the majority of people in Qc do its job.

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04-21-2012, 06:51 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Because it costs them money? It is a logistical nightmare?

It has worked many times in the past in Quebec.
But is it working this time? It would seem that students are not willing to compromise here at all, which isn't exactly the best course of action here, is it?


Quote:
And they will, but that is not as effective as this.
So, again, it's all or nothing right?



Quote:
Don't know if you have noticed or not, but Quebec has a much higher degree of social democracy than the ROC.
Yep, and they can't afford it. I admire Quebec's culture of "social responsibility", but it has come at a severe price, hasn't it? Infrastructure, for one.


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Hey look! Another arrogant Anglo ignorant comment about Quebec.
Can you seriously blame people for this perception? Hell, look at the majority of Quebecois posters on this board alone and their attitude towards the ROC. What's certainly arrogant would be a perception that these types of "ignorant comments" are a one way street.

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04-21-2012, 06:59 PM
  #122
Garo
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Originally Posted by Corky View Post
The fact that it has always been done like that in the past does not make it right....You pay for a service, you should be allowed to get it, it's as simple as that.

And don't get me started on these strikes votes, they are a total joke....If you guys like democracy so much, then let the government that has been chosen by the majority of people in Qc do its job.
If you pay for a service without full knowledge of how things work, you're the only one responsible. Don't blame those who did their homework.

And I never was for the strike, mostly because I don't agree with exactly how these votes were conducted but people trying to deflect a legitimate debate with the ridiculous things I've heard in the past few days annoy me even more.

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04-21-2012, 07:01 PM
  #123
Corky
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post


Source please.
It's an article in french. I don't agree with what he says in the article but the figures are good I would hope.

http://lapresseaffaires.cyberpresse....un-diplome.php

The actual numbers are:

55% of the QC population do not pay taxes.
Citizens earning between 30k and 50k paid 21% of total taxes. (23.1% of total taxpayers)
Citizens earning between 50k and more paid the balance (79% of total taxes and 22% of total taxpayers)

So, 22% pays for 79% of taxes, I wasn't that far off it seems. This is something a serious protester against hiking tuition fees should know.

Also, people earning 100k+ are paying a staggering 41% of total taxes while representing 4.1% of total taxpayers.

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04-21-2012, 07:05 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Votes occur within each department, in addition, they vote every week to continue or not continue the strike. If there is a majority of people who don't want to strike, they can go ahead and vote it down.

I am not on strike. I voted for the unlimited strike at the GA for AUS McGill, but we lost, so we went back to class.
People shouldn't have to show up to a vote to be able to attend classes that they are paying money for, it's as simple as that.

When I was in university the student association was a joke of an organization that collected money off of me every year to give to anime clubs, I wanted nothing to do with the votes they had.

These protests will turn into a civil war between students (if they aren't already).

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04-21-2012, 07:06 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
But is it working this time? It would seem that students are not willing to compromise here at all, which isn't exactly the best course of action here, is it?
Well, it isn't over yet. Secondly, there seems to be negotiations coming up between the student associations and the government.

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So, again, it's all or nothing right?
You don't get success in this world from half-assing something.

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Yep, and they can't afford it. I admire Quebec's culture of "social responsibility", but it has come at a severe price, hasn't it? Infrastructure, for one.
I don't know enough about Quebec to know for sure, nor am I going to make a judgement on the little information I have.

All I know is the "infrastructure" in Montreal in my experience is perfectly fine.

Quote:
Can you seriously blame people for this perception? Hell, look at the majority of Quebecois posters on this board alone and their attitude towards the ROC. What's certainly arrogant would be a perception that these types of "ignorant comments" are a one way street.
Yes, I can blame people for this perception. Why shouldn't I? I see countless Anglos all across Canada use the same ignorant, half-baked statements about Quebec when they have never even set foot into this province. Anglos know very little, or anything about Quebec culture and it makes me sick to see such ignorance.

I never said it was a "one way street."

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