It seems you are looking more at his stats than his performance so far. Personally, I'd say that Andrei has been more than "decent" for the Preds in the playoffs so far. His points totals so far are average but the chances have been there for him and his linemates. A couple of inches difference on a few plays and AK is one of their leading scorers.
But his play has been about far more than just scoring for the Preds. They need him to use his size, speed and strength and he has done just that. He sets screens in front of the net, he works the corners and wins the puck, he plays the body, he backchecks hard and has shown more defensive awareness when his line is trapped in the defensive zone than he has tended to in the past. He is second on his team in hits and tied for the lead in takeaways which shows he is playing the style that Trotz wants him to play. The red Wings didn't score a single goal in that series when AK was on the ice. Now obviously that's a reflection of how his line/teammate were playing as well, but he more than pulled his weight in that regard.
He chased the puck down and regained possession for the Preds, beat out icing calls and laid a beating on the Wings when they tried to carry the puck. He helped his linemates create chances both off the rush and dominate the cycle deep in the Wings zone and contributed to the scoring by committee approach the Preds use. That's more than "decent" and worthy of his salary IMO.
I don't know, all I can remember from glancing at the Wings & Preds series is not hearing his name that often and the fact that the explanation comes from somewhat low ice time, except for that game where he played 20 minutes. Is this the game you were referring to?
I have to disagree on your more than decent logic, you're not comparing what a team could get for lower amount of money. When the trade was made you can bet that Montreal's management weighted all options and what probably came out is that they could either re-hire him for lower at the end of the season ( he said he would sign for lower ) or just find a player with potentially equivalent impact/production which is more than plenty in the league. My point exactly.
I'm not arguing whether his play is adequate or not, just whether you can replace him easily or not. If you don't like "decent", then replace it with "more than decent" and I'll still say that the Habs can hire someone else for lower.
I told myself not to click in this thread because I knew the butt hurt Habs fans will always come up with the same old cliches to bash the bros.
They don't even have the decency to admit that the Kostitsyn are part of Nashville of success.
Like WTK said, I rather believe Babcock or Trotz's opinion on AK over some butt hurt hater Habs fans.
Same here, I didn't check this thread knowing already what the clowns have to say. Big mistake and to late now, I know better for next time.
However these comments have zero value from zero value random posters, when hockey people like Babcock or Trotz (best coach in the NHL) said otherwise.
I don't know, all I can remember from glancing at the Wings & Preds series is not hearing his name that often and the fact that the explanation comes from somewhat low ice time, except for that game where he played 20 minutes. Is this the game you were referring to?
I wasn't referring to any specific game but the whole series. Not sure where you got that idea from. His defensive play was strong in each game and although he was involved in more offensive chances in some games than others, he was still involved in each game.
As for his ice time, it's fairly typical for the Preds forwards rather than low IMO. The only line that gets low ice time is the 4th. Everyone else is fairly evenly matched at even strength. Special teams time then boosts some players TOI more than others and centers get a few extra shifts with Trotz using 2 centers quite a bit on defensive zone draws. That game he got 20 minutes he was arguably the best of the Preds forwards (scored one, covered Weber while he pinched for the other goal and hit the post in the last minutes amongst other plays) and it was the only game the Preds trailed in. Since the Preds needed offense, Trotz put him (and the rest of the top 6) out there a lot and they almost managed to tied the game as a result.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vokiel
I have to disagree on your more than decent logic, you're not comparing what a team could get for lower amount of money. When the trade was made you can bet that Montreal's management weighted all options and what probably came out is that they could either re-hire him for lower at the end of the season ( he said he would sign for lower ) or just find a player with potentially equivalent impact/production which is more than plenty in the league. My point exactly.
I think your point (and perhaps some of the confusion between us) depends on how he is utilised. If you take his usage under Cunneyworth (especially as the trade deadline approached) as the basis for what kind of player/impact you can get for that much money then yes, I'd agree that you could spend less money and still get someone of at least equal use. If you give a skilled player small minutes on the 4th line alongside a player struggling as much as Gomez has been with little to no PP time then for $1m or so you can get a player suited to such a role through UFA.
If you take AK's usage on the 3rd line alongside Eller as the example of his usage then I figure you could find someone cheaper depending on exactly what you would expect from them. If you just want a 3rd liner for a simple north-south style of game with PK duties thrown in, then you probably can get that for cheaper than AK. But whether they can bring the offensive skills and chemistry to the 3rd line that AK brought is in doubt (unless you sign a player out of form with their previous team as a reclamation project and hope they now perform at the peak of their abilities). If you want a 3rd liner with a strong two way game, good shot, good passing and vision, strong skater and hard hitter who can also play several roles on the PP and fill in on the top 6 and play in tough matchups with the oppositions best players then I think that is going to cost at least the same as AK, probably more. I also don't think that there are plenty of such players who would cost less.
If you take AK's usage when playing with Pleks in the top 6, getting tough matchups, being the physical presence he was, who can be used as a playmaker or a shooter while being decent defensively then I really don't think there are plenty of players who will be available as UFAs who we could sign, and especially not for less than AK unless, like I said, they have had issues elsewhere and we take them on as a reclamation project.
Does that sound like a fair assessment to you? For my liking, he'd at least be used on the Eller line, otherwise in the top 6. And for that role, I don't feel there are plenty of players who could contribute what he did for less. Of the upcoming UFA crop, who are the players you feel would provide what AK provided us with for less?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vokiel
I'm not arguing whether his play is adequate or not,
By saying "Look at his performance in Nashville now" and quoting some stats, it does sound like you are trying to comment on his play. At least it did to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vokiel
just whether you can replace him easily or not. If you don't like "decent", then replace it with "more than decent" and I'll still say that the Habs can hire someone else for lower.
Like I said above, I think that depends how you intend to use such a player. If you want someone for the 4th line winger of Gomez role that AK played this season, then yes, you or I could probably sign someone better suited for less money ourselves. But if you want someone for top 6 usage, who will have chemistry with all 3 of our top centers, who on any given line can be the trigger man, the physical presence or a playmaker while playing a solid defensive game against some of the top players the other teams have, then I'd like to know who you think we could sign for less than $3.25m and just how much less you would intend to give them.
Personally, instead of comparing them to grinders, I'd rather have players with equal talent and a better work ethics... but that's just me.
Penner?
Funny to me that posters who were happy that AK was traded still feel the need to tell people that he sucks and that he's not worth the money he's getting.
Problem is, a guy like that is basically a 1st-liner, maybe even a superstar. Kostitsyns are very talented, probably Andrei more than Sergei, but Andrei lacks... something, in order to be more consistent. I'm not sure what it is. Probably hockey sense. I think the effort is there, he just doesn't know how to fully exploit his talents. I think Sergei is more aware of what he has to do in order to be succesful, but he doesn't have the size and the talent Andrei has.
So yeah, of course I'd love a guy like Andrei with better ethics and understanding of the game, but that's kind of a silly discussion, since that would be like saying I'd rather have $10k than 5 bucks. Andrei is a good 2nd-3rd line guy, he's good offensive depth. You can't compare him to 1st liners.
Edit-Yeah, I guess that's what you're saying huh? I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not!
I guess you missed the gist of my post. Kostitsyn lovers purposely compared them to 3-4th line grinders. Why I ask? Why not compare them to 2-3rd line players with skills but with a better work ethics? Because if they do that, Serge and André don't stand a chance and their lovers know it! It's borderline hypocrisy.
I dont miss any of them. They are very ordinary players with no grit, who play 1 out of 8 games with minimal intensity. We dont need those 2 in Montreal
Problem is, a guy like that is basically a 1st-liner, maybe even a superstar. Kostitsyns are very talented, probably Andrei more than Sergei, but Andrei lacks... something, in order to be more consistent. I'm not sure what it is. Probably hockey sense. I think the effort is there, he just doesn't know how to fully exploit his talents. I think Sergei is more aware of what he has to do in order to be succesful, but he doesn't have the size and the talent Andrei has.
So yeah, of course I'd love a guy like Andrei with better ethics and understanding of the game, but that's kind of a silly discussion, since that would be like saying I'd rather have $10k than 5 bucks. Andrei is a good 2nd-3rd line guy, he's good offensive depth. You can't compare him to 1st liners.
Edit-Yeah, I guess that's what you're saying huh? I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not!
This is it . While AK does hit, both he and SK are more finesse kind of players, not power forwards. If they were consistent they would be 1st liners like Marleau, Heatley etc., but they arent. They therefore are like most finesse scorers in this league, 20 plus goal scorers , and that is why they play on the 2nd line. In habsland fans hate that inconsistency and are never okay with such players. Id be thrilled to have skilled players always working hard but these are the finesse guys that play the 1st line or are the physical some skilled kind of players like Clowe, Malone, Hartnell etc that can play top 6 and are very hard to find. Most teams and fans just have to accept having some inconsistent scoring type finesse guys on the 2nd line, we dont.
I think the damming thing about trading A. Kostitsyn away is that there is at least 1 maybe 2 or 3 positions in the current lineup were Kostitsyn would be about as good of a fit as any one to fill. And getting a 2nd rounder back does not help if it would cost more than that in trade terms to fill that spot.
I don't much care for either one.
Habs fans expect one thing above all. One thing we have seen true habs do.
Real Habs have sold their soul to the team. Would do ANYTHING to win.
Give up their body to a point of playing with broken bones just to help the team. We have seen this when the Team was a dynasty and we have seen more then one Habs dynasty team. Lots of players now, sure, say the right thing off ice but watch them on the ice and it don't take long to see the fakers. They swear to the heavens that they would die for the habs but that's just what they say to the media or for TV.
I believe if the habs want to be the real HABS again, the had better get more Quebec born players and more Canadian born players. Players that were brought up with the CH tatoo on their hearts.
A little less hammer and cycle and a bit more poutine.
I don't much care for either one.
Habs fans expect one thing above all. One thing we have seen true habs do.
Real Habs have sold their soul to the team. Would do ANYTHING to win.
Give up their body to a point of playing with broken bones just to help the team. We have seen this when the Team was a dynasty and we have seen more then one Habs dynasty team. Lots of players now, sure, say the right thing off ice but watch them on the ice and it don't take long to see the fakers. They swear to the heavens that they would die for the habs but that's just what they say to the media or for TV.
I believe if the habs want to be the real HABS again, the had better get more Quebec born players and more Canadian born players. Players that were brought up with the CH tatoo on their hearts.
A little less hammer and cycle and a bit more poutine.
Carefull you will get jumped if you continue to post like this as that is a terrible thing to say about our team lol I know I did lol. I tend to agree with you 100%.
I guess you missed the gist of my post. Kostitsyn lovers purposely compared them to 3-4th line grinders. Why I ask? Why not compare them to 2-3rd line players with skills but with a better work ethics? Because if they do that, Serge and André don't stand a chance and their lovers know it! It's borderline hypocrisy.
Euh no. I love how you like to point fingers.
This all started because someone said we didn't need those ''lazy'' russians. They also just flat out chose to ignore the fact reputable coaches like Trotz, and apparently Babcock, have positively commented on those ''lazy'' russians.
And when I posted that we're better with those ''lazy'' russians than with scrappers or grinders on the 2nd line (which is what happened this year, not a sarcastic argument but the actual truth), then someone responded that we'd be better with the grinders there, which, even the most clueless hockey fan would disagree with.
And you kind of lost your credibility on the subject when you kept criticizing AK and then saying we should bring in Penner instead.
The fact you refer to a group of posters as ''lovers'' also demonstrates the lack of maturity you are bringing to this discussion.
Would people prefer Cole and MaxPac? Of course. No point in discussing something everybody agrees on.
This year, Plek played with a grinder almost all year. That's a fact, not a hypothetical situation. There is no doubt AK is a better option. Well, apparently it isn't as obvious for some people that claim to be hockey fans. Clearly, they are more Habs fan then actual hockey fans, otherwise they wouldn't spit out such nonsense.
......exactly why the Preds valued Paul Gaustad far greater than AK.
No, it's because BUFFALO valued him. They made a better trade, doesn't mean the Preds value Gaustad more. Actually has absolutely nothing to do with that.
Look at what we gave for Gomez, was he really worth that much? Gaustad isn't worth a 1st. It was a good move from the Sabres. The Preds are obviously going for it this year, they overpaid for Gill, probably refused to give more for Andrei. At the time, maybe there was a big demand for Gaustad too.
In any event, looking the assets exchanged isn't a good measuring stick for value at all.
No, it's because BUFFALO valued him. They made a better trade, doesn't mean the Preds value Gaustad more. Actually has absolutely nothing to do with that.
Look at what we gave for Gomez, was he really worth that much? Gaustad isn't worth a 1st. It was a good move from the Sabres. The Preds are obviously going for it this year, they overpaid for Gill, probably refused to give more for Andrei. At the time, maybe there was a big demand for Gaustad too.
In any event, looking the assets exchanged isn't a good measuring stick for value at all.
You bet they did a better trade than our beloved Mr.Gauthier.
A late 1st rounder this year might mean a solid 2nd or 3rd line player or even a top goalie like Subban or Vasilevski
I take it by his lack of response that Habsterix is having difficulty finding that elusive player with equal talent, a better work ethic and similar cap hit.
And you kind of lost your credibility on the subject when you kept criticizing AK and then saying we should bring in Penner instead.
The fact you refer to a group of posters as ''lovers'' also demonstrates the lack of maturity you are bringing to this discussion.
And your credibility was lost long before when, with your condescending comments, you pretended that only you knew hockey... and by taking things out of context, like you've done here once again with the Penner comment. Why? Because all I said is that I was so fed-up with AK that I'd rather have Penner instead (back then) as we knew that AK wasn't working out and a change of scenery might have worked for Penner. See how different it sounds in context?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HCH
Like who?
Pacioretty, Cole, Eberle, Pavelski, Kane (Evander)... just to name a few.
Yes, I do believe that AK has the skillset and the physical attributes of those guys. The work ethics, the heart, the desire is what makes the difference.
