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Old
04-22-2012, 04:48 AM
  #276
Le Rosbeef
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Three of Thornton's five points in this series came in situations where the game was pretty much decided by the time the points were put on the board.

There is a significant difference.
What difference does that make? If you're implying it's somehow easier, why didn't Patrick do it too?

The bottom line is what he brought and nobody can defend the fact that Andrew Desjardins outproduced him. Chubbs is right - he's not a 4th line plug, he's amongst the top 20 or players in the league according to his cap hit. Disappearing is totally and completely unacceptable and this isn't the first time it has happened.

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04-22-2012, 04:49 AM
  #277
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lol single-handedly? Give me a break. That's scapegoating at its finest.

And the Thornton thing was different than Marleau's. Context has a hell of a lot to do with it and it seems that you're the one forgetting here. Three of Marleau's four goals against the Canucks either gave the Sharks the lead or tied the game. And the story was similar against Chicago. Three of Thornton's five points in this series came in situations where the game was pretty much decided by the time the points were put on the board.

There is a significant difference.
Even ignoring Marleau's lack of point production until his lone goal in game 7, it was his mistakes that cost them the games that got them there in the first place. So yeah, not only was he not helping the team on the scoreboard, but he was hurting them by not having his head in the game when the responsibility fell on him.

And the game isn't over until the buzzer. You say the points were pointless, but had they scored afterward then those points wouldn't have looked so bad. I guess if you had your way, the team should just start packing their bags in the last few minutes of the game instead of trying to make a comeback.

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04-22-2012, 04:52 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
And if you go back and look at everyone and apply a relatively similar standard, you can make that claim about everyone for the Sharks in this series, including Jumbo. Jumbo wasn't always hard on the back check, he certainly wasn't as physical as Marleau, and he was making many soft plays with the puck especially on the power play.
You seem to love the defense of "look at everyone else and how much they sucked too" and that's just not an answer. Thornton made mistakes, but he also did a ton of good out there that actually showed on the scoreboard. Marleau was outproduced and outcompeted by our grinders.

Marleau is making 6.9 million. You can't hold him to the same standard as guys who make a fraction of what he does.

And I'm cutting off this conversation not because I don't want to continue, but because I think we're going a bit off-topic.

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04-22-2012, 04:54 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Le Rosbeef View Post
What difference does that make? If you're implying it's somehow easier, why didn't Patrick do it too?

The bottom line is what he brought and nobody can defend the fact that Andrew Desjardins outproduced him. Chubbs is right - he's not a 4th line plug, he's amongst the top 20 or players in the league according to his cap hit. Disappearing is totally and completely unacceptable and this isn't the first time it has happened.
You're also talking about a single five game sample size. If you really have to ask what difference context makes for points then there's no point continuing this.

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Originally Posted by Chubbs View Post
Even ignoring Marleau's lack of point production until his lone goal in game 7, it was his mistakes that cost them the games that got them there in the first place. So yeah, not only was he not helping the team on the scoreboard, but he was hurting them by not having his head in the game when the responsibility fell on him.

And the game isn't over until the buzzer. You say the points were pointless, but had they scored afterward then those points wouldn't have looked so bad. I guess if you had your way, the team should just start packing their bags in the last few minutes of the game instead of trying to make a comeback.
Again, scapegoating. A team gives up four goals to lose means it's not on one guy for the loss no matter how much you want to believe otherwise. Pretending like context in scoring doesn't matter is an asinine argument to make. By the standard you're trying to pass off, a goal that gives you a 1-0 win is as important as a secondary assist in a 7-1 loss.

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04-22-2012, 04:57 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Chubbs View Post
You seem to love the defense of "look at everyone else and how much they sucked too" and that's just not an answer. Thornton made mistakes, but he also did a ton of good out there that actually showed on the scoreboard. Marleau was outproduced and outcompeted by our grinders.

Marleau is making 6.9 million. You can't hold him to the same standard as guys who make a fraction of what he does.

And I'm cutting off this conversation not because I don't want to continue, but because I think we're going a bit off-topic.
If you can't hold him to the same standard then pointing to their production is equally pointless. And the reason why you can't is that those grinders play much different competition than he does.

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04-22-2012, 04:57 AM
  #281
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Even ignoring Marleau's lack of point production until his lone goal in game 7, it was his mistakes that cost them the games that got them there in the first place. So yeah, not only was he not helping the team on the scoreboard, but he was hurting them by not having his head in the game when the responsibility fell on him.
The only game where Patty was a complete liability was game 5. The rest of them he was still getting his chances and his line was producing. He wasn't really a problem.

OT, but I've never figured out how the hell his linemate got a hattrick and he didn't pick up so much as a secondary assist on any of the goals.

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04-22-2012, 04:59 AM
  #282
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Relocate the entire franchise out of California.

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04-22-2012, 04:59 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Again, scapegoating. A team gives up four goals to lose means it's not on one guy for the loss no matter how much you want to believe otherwise. Pretending like context in scoring doesn't matter is an asinine argument to make. By the standard you're trying to pass off, a goal that gives you a 1-0 win is as important as a secondary assist in a 7-1 loss.
You don't have to be a Marleau hater to know that Game 5 was one of the worst games Marleau had as a Shark.

As for your 2nd point, I'd agree with you if Thornton got some random assist in the waning seconds of the game, but he didn't. He actually started a comeback that gave the Sharks a chance to tie the game. 1 goal with a minute left certainly isn't impossible (especially considering St. Louis was on their toes at that point). If they mounted a comeback, those points wouldn't look so pointless anymore would they?
And even if you consider them "garbage points", that's still 3 more garbage points than Marleau was able to produce.

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04-22-2012, 05:01 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
You're also talking about a single five game sample size. If you really have to ask what difference context makes for points then there's no point continuing this.ives you a 1-0 win is as important as a secondary assist in a 7-1 loss.
Haha! Ok, alright then. Don't continue, I'll survive.

Your argument was flawed which was the point I made to you and you tried to dliute with semantics yet again. I ask you directly: If it was somehow easier to score for Thornton at those points in the game, how didn't Patrick contribute?

But like most of your answers, you dance around like a Jackie Chan clone if anyone presents something that conflicts with your view.

I have one simple number for you: 0.

Context, effort, other players, wind direction, brand of toothpaste. It's all IRRELEVANT. Patrick was a waste of space in this series on $2m per annum, let alone 7...


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04-22-2012, 05:01 AM
  #285
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
OT, but I've never figured out how the hell his linemate got a hattrick and he didn't pick up so much as a secondary assist on any of the goals.
Dan Boyle is a very selfish PPQB. On that note, the actual goal for the hat-trick was just an amazing end-to-end rush by Thornton, especially considering how badly he played Ericsson.

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04-22-2012, 05:03 AM
  #286
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Dan Boyle is a very selfish PPQB. On that note, the actual goal for the hat-trick was just an amazing end-to-end rush by Thornton, especially considering how badly he played Ericsson.
Boyle is the biggest ****ing puck-hog I have ever seen.

And any time you're feeling crappy about Marleau being signed for $6.9M, just remember that at least you don't have Ericsson signed for $3.5M.

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04-22-2012, 05:05 AM
  #287
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
You don't have to be a Marleau hater to know that Game 5 was one of the worst games Marleau had as a Shark.

As for your 2nd point, I'd agree with you if Thornton got some random assist in the waning seconds of the game, but he didn't. He actually started a comeback that gave the Sharks a chance to tie the game. 1 goal with a minute left certainly isn't impossible (especially considering St. Louis was on their toes at that point). If they mounted a comeback, those points wouldn't look so pointless anymore would they?
And even if you consider them "garbage points", that's still 3 more garbage points than Marleau was able to produce.
Against the Red Wings? Maybe but you still don't account for the other three goals that were not on his shoulders so saying he single-handedly cost them the game is still ludicrous.

As for the Thornton bit, the point is that they didn't because it was taking them too long for the offense to get going to make a difference. Those attempted comebacks were for naught because they weren't getting the job done when the game started or was within a shot. That's on everyone. All of them.

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04-22-2012, 05:06 AM
  #288
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at least you don't have Ericsson signed for $3.5M.
How Ericsson makes 3.5 and White only 2.8 is beyond me...
It's not even the case of more potential considering White is younger.

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04-22-2012, 05:08 AM
  #289
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How Ericsson makes 3.5 and White only 2.8 is beyond me...
It's not even the case of more potential considering White is younger.
Wings fans are finally starting to realize that White is not a top-2 defenseman, even though that contract is a steal.

Hilariously, they've bumped the Babcock-Burns "I'm pissed off/gold medal pick" thread.

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04-22-2012, 05:09 AM
  #290
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Against the Red Wings? Maybe but you still don't account for the other three goals that were not on his shoulders so saying he single-handedly cost them the game is still ludicrous.

As for the Thornton bit, the point is that they didn't because it was taking them too long for the offense to get going to make a difference. Those attempted comebacks were for naught because they weren't getting the job done when the game started or was within a shot. That's on everyone. All of them.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but was the GWG not scored because of an extremely lackadaisical effort by Marleau in the defensive zone?

As for your 2nd point, again, at least Thornton has those points to lean on. Marleau can't even say he got garbage points.

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04-22-2012, 05:10 AM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Le Rosbeef View Post
Haha! Ok, alright then. Don't continue, I'll survive.

Your argument was flawed which was the point I made to you and you tried to dliute with semantics yet again. I ask you directly: If it was somehow easier to score for Thornton at those points in the game, how didn't Patrick contribute?

But like most of your answers, you dance around like a Jackie Chan clone if anyone presents something that conflicts with your view.

I have one simple number for you: 0.

Context, effort, other players, wind direction, brand of toothpaste. It's all IRRELEVANT. Patrick was a waste of space in this series on $2m per annum, let alone 7...
That kind of question is a silly one to ask. What difference does it make who scores those points when it is coming in a situation where a loss is pretty much known? I'll tell you what that difference is. It's none so putting value into Thornton's points is ridiculous.

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04-22-2012, 05:11 AM
  #292
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I think Galiardi deserves another shot, he didn't get to prove himself, let the Sharks build him up the proper way.
I would even say Moore. Moore was set up to fail in this system.

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04-22-2012, 05:11 AM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
That kind of question is a silly one to ask. What difference does it make who scores those points when it is coming in a situation where a loss is pretty much known? I'll tell you what that difference is. It's none so putting value into Thornton's points is ridiculous.
Proving my point that with semantics, yet again you dodge an answer. Brilliant!

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04-22-2012, 05:11 AM
  #294
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Wings fans are finally starting to realize that White is not a top-2 defenseman, even though that contract is a steal.
Colin White could look like a top-2 defenseman if paired with the perfect human.

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04-22-2012, 05:13 AM
  #295
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but was the GWG not scored because of an extremely lackadaisical effort by Marleau in the defensive zone?

As for your 2nd point, again, at least Thornton has those points to lean on. Marleau can't even say he got garbage points.
And there are three other goals that were put up that would make the same difference between a win and a loss in that one particular game which takes away from the whole single-handedly lost us the game angle.

It's not much solace for Thornton to have those points to lean on when they were too little, too late. In his mind, like it should for everyone else, it's as if he didn't score because it didn't get them what they needed.

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04-22-2012, 05:13 AM
  #296
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What difference does it make who scores those points when it is coming in a situation where a loss is pretty much known? .
The difference was, Thornton still gave the team a chance to win which is a lot more than you could say for Marleau. Down by one goal with less than a minute left isn't an impossible come-back in the slightest. Just look at Seabrook.

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04-22-2012, 05:14 AM
  #297
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That kind of question is a silly one to ask. What difference does it make who scores those points when it is coming in a situation where a loss is pretty much known? I'll tell you what that difference is. It's none so putting value into Thornton's points is ridiculous.
Doesn't matter. So you're basically saying that Thornton plays a 60 minute game while Patty does not?

That doesn't help your case for him, bud.

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04-22-2012, 05:14 AM
  #298
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Proving my point that with semantics, yet again you dodge an answer. Brilliant!
Yet you really have nothing in response to that point. Proving that the difference is none.

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04-22-2012, 05:15 AM
  #299
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And there are three other goals that were put up that would make the same difference between a win and a loss in that one particular game which takes away from the whole single-handedly lost us the game angle.
When that lackadaisical effort was within the last 2 minutes of the game, then yes, a huge blame should be placed on that player.

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04-22-2012, 05:15 AM
  #300
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Doesn't matter. So you're basically saying that Thornton plays a 60 minute game while Patty does not?

That doesn't help your case for him, bud.
That's certainly an interesting interpretation of garbage time production. If he were a 60 minute player, don't you think he would have scored those points a little earlier than the dying stages of the third period?

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