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Old
04-22-2012, 06:07 AM
  #326
Pinkfloyd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Rosbeef View Post
You're right. With odds like that, it's not worth ever trying to come back at all.


Yeah because this type of comment isn't an attempt to move the goal posts. Facts are that your chances of tying the game up when you had to score a goal with a minute to go just to bring it to within one are lower than if you had scored that goal with five or ten minutes to go. That's the entire point of it. It's not impossible but it is improbable to make a goal happen on one or two plays in that limited time frame.

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Old
04-22-2012, 06:09 AM
  #327
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It doesn't really matter to move Marleau we need someone coming back who's speed at least comes close to his.

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Old
04-22-2012, 06:19 AM
  #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
There are many reasons why it happened. Some of it is luck. Some of it was poor execution. None of it has to do with desire or effort.



How am I excusing Marleau? He didn't produce a single point in a series where the team lost. Nobody is getting excused is the entire purpose of this. I don't excuse Thornton just because he went a point per game. I don't care what you or anyone else interprets that production to be. To me, he had his hand in this team losing this series just like everyone else. What you guys are doing are excusing Thornton from this team loss just to pile on to Marleau for his failure to produce. But in reality, Thornton didn't do enough and wasn't good enough either. He had his failures in this series and doesn't deserve a pass for it either.



Actually, I'm not. I don't think you even know how to judge what is a fallacy and what isn't. Your entire arguments have always been assumptive that because I don't think Marleau was as bad as everyone likes to think or that Thornton wasn't as good as people like to think that that means I'm excusing the guy.
gretzky or lemieux wouldn't of been able to make up for the waste of a roster spot that marleau and pavelski had in this series.

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Old
04-22-2012, 06:23 AM
  #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
There are many reasons why it happened. Some of it is luck. Some of it was poor execution. None of it has to do with desire or effort.



How am I excusing Marleau? He didn't produce a single point in a series where the team lost. Nobody is getting excused is the entire purpose of this. I don't excuse Thornton just because he went a point per game. I don't care what you or anyone else interprets that production to be. To me, he had his hand in this team losing this series just like everyone else. What you guys are doing are excusing Thornton from this team loss just to pile on to Marleau for his failure to produce. But in reality, Thornton didn't do enough and wasn't good enough either. He had his failures in this series and doesn't deserve a pass for it either.



Actually, I'm not. I don't think you even know how to judge what is a fallacy and what isn't. Your entire arguments have always been assumptive that because I don't think Marleau was as bad as everyone likes to think or that Thornton wasn't as good as people like to think that that means I'm excusing the guy.
This is hilarious. You're saying I don't even know what a fallacy is?

First off, saying you didn't get lucky is a cop out. Thornton or desi had no problems executing in order to score more points then Patty did.

Second, again, you commit the same fallacy over and over again. Its called Tu quoque. Otherwise known as the "you, too" fallacy.

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Old
04-22-2012, 06:57 AM
  #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
There are many reasons why it happened. Some of it is luck. Some of it was poor execution. None of it has to do with desire or effort.



How am I excusing Marleau? He didn't produce a single point in a series where the team lost. Nobody is getting excused is the entire purpose of this. I don't excuse Thornton just because he went a point per game. I don't care what you or anyone else interprets that production to be. To me, he had his hand in this team losing this series just like everyone else. What you guys are doing are excusing Thornton from this team loss just to pile on to Marleau for his failure to produce. But in reality, Thornton didn't do enough and wasn't good enough either. He had his failures in this series and doesn't deserve a pass for it either.



Actually, I'm not. I don't think you even know how to judge what is a fallacy and what isn't. Your entire arguments have always been assumptive that because I don't think Marleau was as bad as everyone likes to think or that Thornton wasn't as good as people like to think that that means I'm excusing the guy.
Did Thornton literally have to put the team on his back?! He was doing everything short of it to make something happen. Is it not obvious when he actually shoots and scores that he's not getting any help? He is nowhere near responsible for the series loss.

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Old
04-22-2012, 07:40 AM
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
There are many reasons why it happened. Some of it is luck. Some of it was poor execution. None of it has to do with desire or effort.



How am I excusing Marleau? He didn't produce a single point in a series where the team lost. Nobody is getting excused is the entire purpose of this. I don't excuse Thornton just because he went a point per game. I don't care what you or anyone else interprets that production to be. To me, he had his hand in this team losing this series just like everyone else. What you guys are doing are excusing Thornton from this team loss just to pile on to Marleau for his failure to produce. But in reality, Thornton didn't do enough and wasn't good enough either. He had his failures in this series and doesn't deserve a pass for it either.



Actually, I'm not. I don't think you even know how to judge what is a fallacy and what isn't. Your entire arguments have always been assumptive that because I don't think Marleau was as bad as everyone likes to think or that Thornton wasn't as good as people like to think that that means I'm excusing the guy.

You must be delusional There is no way you can justify the bad play from Marleau by saying other players didnt produce and what not, Marleau is one of the players who must and is expected to produce.

And to say Thornton was bad and comparable to Marleau is a laughable statement

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Old
04-22-2012, 09:25 AM
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Grit is the single most overrated aspect of winning a hockey game. Marleau was hitting and not scoring. Skill>grit, and it isn't particularly close.

How many big hits did you see any Blues player throw? I can remember one by Oshie in game 2. That's all.
Everytime I hear the grit convo, this is what I say to myself.

Not gonna lie i'd love me an SJ Nash or Parise jersey haha.

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Old
04-22-2012, 09:47 AM
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
So with these moves the lines would look something like :

Yakupov-Thornton-Parise/Semin
Cooch-Marleau-Havlat
MacArthur-Gagner-Galiardi
Winnik-Desi-Wingels

Vlasic-Burns
Stuart-Braun
Demers-Vandy
Murray(I would try to get something for him though or use him to spruce up a trade)

Griess
Anyone
If that could actually happen, that lineup is gold.

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Old
04-22-2012, 11:11 AM
  #334
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After a sucker punch to the stomach, I come here and find the person trolling Sharks fans the most is not another team's fan rubbing salt in the wounds, but our very own PF.

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Old
04-22-2012, 11:20 AM
  #335
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PF just wants Justice. Justice for Patty. When we point out Patty's failure, we're supposed to point out the failures of all other players, coaches and DW to be fair...Probably Remenda and the rest of the Sharks media (sans Hedican) for being such homers and deluding us into thinking this team ever had a chance.

I couldn't care less. I simply want a new team and org. I won't be renewing my partial season tickets until this team changes drastically.

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Old
04-22-2012, 11:21 AM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
That's certainly an interesting interpretation of garbage time production. If he were a 60 minute player, don't you think he would have scored those points a little earlier than the dying stages of the third period?
thorntons a playmaker. meaning he gets his points by giving teammates tap in/easy shot goals.

he cannot get points if his teammates are shooting those passes into the goalies chest.

funny how his points came from when he WASNT with marleau and pavelski (i think this is true, if they hadda been out there, sure as hell one of them could have done as much as a secondary assist)

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Old
04-22-2012, 12:01 PM
  #337
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Was patty even on the ice in that last game when we went empty net?

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Old
04-22-2012, 12:03 PM
  #338
Swervin81
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Don't know if he's been mentioned but I might take a flyer on MPS with that 55th overall pick, maybe trade a late pick as well for a project guy like Omark. Both provide speed. MPS also has lots of untapped potential.

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Old
04-22-2012, 12:04 PM
  #339
Rickety Cricket
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I think one thing we have to consider is that the Sharks probably lost money. This might mean the ownership might tighten the purse strings and not allow DW to spend to the cap.

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Old
04-22-2012, 12:04 PM
  #340
Rickety Cricket
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Originally Posted by Swervin81 View Post
Don't know if he's been mentioned but I might take a flyer on MPS with that 55th overall pick, maybe trade a late pick as well for a project guy like Omark. Both provide speed. MPS also has lots of untapped potential.
Didn't Omark essentially ask for a trade on Twitter?

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Old
04-22-2012, 12:04 PM
  #341
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I know you're angry.....I'M ANGRY.

But we all knew this was the worst possible matchup for us. We went 8 and 1 against this team. There isn't much to say past that. The PK was a joke, but we couldn't score either. We weren't going to be able to change the system overnight for a playoff series, but as others said clearly our game doesn't work against this type of team. Honestly I'm hoping the Blues get at least to the WCF so I can say, "oh well, Sharks would have run into the blues this year no matter where they were seeded." If the blues get knocked out by LA or Chicago or something THEN I will really be upset. I think if it wasn't for the blues the Sharks really could have made a run this year. We got beat by a better team that was tailor made to beat us.

I would strongly prefer a coaching change to blowing up the roster. I think the abysmal PK gives DW something to justify the change. A couple more PK's = A couple more wins in the regular season and we finish 3rd and get Chicago. I'm in the minority but I don't think we blow it up yet.

Like others said we aren't going to be able to trade Marleau. I think the most drastic thing the team should attempt is trading Murray and possibly Clowe while they still have value. I think we need one more scoring winger. Seto was a huge loss. Keeping pavelski at center all year would have made a big difference.

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Old
04-22-2012, 12:09 PM
  #342
Rickety Cricket
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Originally Posted by SharksFailToClear View Post


I know you're angry.....I'M ANGRY.

But we all knew this was the worst possible matchup for us. We went 8 and 1 against this team. There isn't much to say past that. The PK was a joke, but we couldn't score either. We weren't going to be able to change the system overnight for a playoff series, but as others said clearly our game doesn't work against this type of team. Honestly I'm hoping the Blues get at least to the WCF so I can say, "oh well, Sharks would have run into the blues this year no matter where they were seeded." If the blues get knocked out by LA or Chicago or something THEN I will really be upset. I think if it wasn't for the blues the Sharks really could have made a run this year. We got beat by a better team that was tailor made to beat us.

I would strongly prefer a coaching change to blowing up the roster. I think the abysmal PK gives DW something to justify the change. A couple more PK's = A couple more wins in the regular season and we finish 3rd and get Chicago. I'm in the minority but I don't think we blow it up yet.

Like others said we aren't going to be able to trade Marleau. I think the most drastic thing the team should attempt is trading Murray and possibly Clowe while they still have value. I think we need one more scoring winger. Seto was a huge loss. Keeping pavelski at center all year would have made a big difference.

I'd like to see the Sharks keep McLellan, but get better assistants. I'd also like to see some tweaks to the roster to try to get more speed in the top 6. Nothing too drastic, small changes can make a difference.

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Old
04-22-2012, 12:13 PM
  #343
Gene Parmesan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swervin81 View Post
Don't know if he's been mentioned but I might take a flyer on MPS with that 55th overall pick, maybe trade a late pick as well for a project guy like Omark. Both provide speed. MPS also has lots of untapped potential.
No to both from me.

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Old
04-22-2012, 12:18 PM
  #344
do0glas
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Marleau needs his own line for a season, you can easily build a killer second line around him and a killer first line around JT.

By spreading it out you have less holes to fill.

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Old
04-22-2012, 12:19 PM
  #345
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I figured people would be interested in this....but Brodie is talking about the potential changes for this team during the off-season on 95.7 The Game

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Old
04-22-2012, 12:20 PM
  #346
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We have to get Kitten Mittons back, The Nemesis really screwed the pooch on that trade.

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Old
04-22-2012, 12:20 PM
  #347
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I'd like to see the Sharks keep McLellan, but get better assistants. I'd also like to see some tweaks to the roster to try to get more speed in the top 6. Nothing too drastic, small changes can make a difference.
yep. I think that's DW's biggest problem...he likes the big splash and bold move that breaks up chemistry. Keep don't blow it up. Keep a lot of what works and make a small change or two.

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Old
04-22-2012, 12:25 PM
  #348
Swervin81
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I'll ask this as a Leafs fan: Would you guys take Connolly? He has great skill and speed, and is good on the PK. He's extremely lazy, but get a great motivating coach, and he can really have potential. He has 1 year left at $4.75M, which can be a problem.

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Old
04-22-2012, 12:27 PM
  #349
HBSauce
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Originally Posted by Swervin81 View Post
I'll ask this as a Leafs fan: Would you guys take Connolly? He has great skill and speed, and is good on the PK. He's extremely lazy, but get a great motivating coach, and he can really have potential. He has 1 year left at $4.75M, which can be a problem.

We already have enough of those on the team, don't need more.


Plus I don't think our coach could motivate a potato...

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Old
04-22-2012, 12:35 PM
  #350
Pinkfloyd
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
gretzky or lemieux wouldn't of been able to make up for the waste of a roster spot that marleau and pavelski had in this series.
Not something that you can prove but I bet both Gretzky and Lemieux would have done more than what Thornton did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UniversalRemonster View Post
This is hilarious. You're saying I don't even know what a fallacy is?

First off, saying you didn't get lucky is a cop out. Thornton or desi had no problems executing in order to score more points then Patty did.

Second, again, you commit the same fallacy over and over again. Its called Tu quoque. Otherwise known as the "you, too" fallacy.
Proving me right here because none of this refutes what I have said.

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Originally Posted by sharkbite3 View Post
Did Thornton literally have to put the team on his back?! He was doing everything short of it to make something happen. Is it not obvious when he actually shoots and scores that he's not getting any help? He is nowhere near responsible for the series loss.
Are you seriously trying to say that Thornton was doing all he could and played well every time that he was out there because he didn't. The power play went 2 for 17 in this series and anyone watching those games in those moments should be able to come to the conclusion that Thornton didn't always make the smartest plays with the puck and wasn't setting up great chances repeatedly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beltes View Post
You must be delusional There is no way you can justify the bad play from Marleau by saying other players didnt produce and what not, Marleau is one of the players who must and is expected to produce.

And to say Thornton was bad and comparable to Marleau is a laughable statement
I'm not justifying Marleau's play in the slightest. Nice how you are reading what isn't there for whatever reason. Thornton's play stands on its own like Marleau's does. Saying Thornton did everything he could for the team is ignoring the things he failed at in the series and the power play is a big part of that. Your last statement is something I never said so I'd appreciate it if you stopped pretending like I did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CloweForbidzYou View Post
thorntons a playmaker. meaning he gets his points by giving teammates tap in/easy shot goals.

he cannot get points if his teammates are shooting those passes into the goalies chest.

funny how his points came from when he WASNT with marleau and pavelski (i think this is true, if they hadda been out there, sure as hell one of them could have done as much as a secondary assist)
The whole play-maker thing is a cop out. His job is to generate offense and not fall into some pigeonholed role of what he or anyone thinks he is. If his teammates aren't scoring goals then he needs to do it. Part of the reason why teams are able to shut down the shooters on his line is because of his unwillingness in many, many instances to put the puck in the net himself. Everyone knows just how dangerous Thornton can be when he is thinking of scoring goals himself and it opens up the passing side of it when he takes more of the reigns like that.

In the playoffs, you have to make adjustments to your game based on what the defense is giving you. Thornton, for the most part, didn't do it until it was too late. Some obviously didn't do it at all like Pavs, Marleau, and Clowe. However, I'm not going to sit here and judge Thornton's performance as great or doing all he could just because everyone else around him may have sucked to everyone else.

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