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04-23-2012, 12:22 AM
  #1
Tw1ster
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Goaltending Depth

With the depth with in the organization in terms of goaltending, would you guys like to see Niemi shipped out in order to give at least one of Sateri, Sexsmith, or Stalock a shot at the big leagues?

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04-23-2012, 12:25 AM
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TheJuxtaposer
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Stalock is the most NHL-ready, and as low as I am on Nemo, going into the season with a Greiss/Stalock doesn't sound like a winning formula. Maybe they work, a la Nabby/Vesa, but it's a big risk.

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04-23-2012, 12:25 AM
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WantonAbandon
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Originally Posted by Tw1ster View Post
With the depth with in the organization in terms of goaltending, would you guys like to see Niemi shipped out in order to give at least one of Sateri, Sexsmith, or Stalock a shot at the big leagues?
What depth? Sateri is no where near ready. Sexsmith was looking to be a bust until this season. Stalock still needs to prove that he is even the same guy who may or may not be suitable for an NHL job.

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04-23-2012, 12:28 AM
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Pretty sure we'll see Niemi play out his contract here, like it or not.

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04-23-2012, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
What depth? Sateri is no where near ready. Sexsmith was looking to be a bust until this season. Stalock still needs to prove that he is even the same guy who may or may not be suitable for an NHL job.
So would you keep Nemo as number one or bring someone else in?

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04-23-2012, 12:37 AM
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So would you keep Nemo as number one or bring someone else in?
Keep him as number one. With that said the Sharks need to be a team that can score, because Niemi is pretty much good for one goal and the Sharks likely will never have a great pk with him in net. With Niemi they can't copy the Blues, Kings, Nashville, and Coyotes who will likely be the winners of the West. The new guard kicked the old guards ass this season.

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04-23-2012, 12:48 AM
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Niemi wasn't stellar this season, but proved he can handle the playoffs. We need a coach who can give him 25+ games off during the regular season. This will also give opportunity for youth to show what they have (or don't have)

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04-23-2012, 01:40 AM
  #8
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The whole reason Niemi was brought in was to prevent the back-breaking easy goals. He proved he could not do that. Ship him out, bring in a stopgap with skills and go from there.

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04-23-2012, 02:51 AM
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I say ship him out ASAP, he still has value and honestly griess in my opinion has better skills for this sharks team. He can actually follow where his own rebounds go for one, and seems more solid in net, not always flailing about like nemo. We have a ton of young untapped goalies in the pipes and could really use the cap dump and possible returns from trading nemo.

Possilbly grab a vet goalie to back him up, platoon with Griess and play which ever one is hot, sort of exactly what should have been done more of this year, and a part of what helped to blues do well.

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04-23-2012, 04:30 AM
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don't think niemi has that much value. he's okay but he's without a doubt slightly below average. keep in mind stl was one of the lower scoring teams in the league, yet we still got lit up for 2,3,4 goals. niemi's performance in the po was below average in the west, better than luongo or howard or crawford but worse than scheider, quick, elliot, smith, and rinne.

his rebound issues are horrendous and i think a reason why our defensive system blows. i think we should try stallock, he's been on the radar for like the past 5 years, time to give him a shot. he's not that young, he's been around forever. cory schneider is only a year older, and look at him now, he's going to replace luongo.

anyway while i dont blame him for our woes, he still wasn't very good this season.

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04-23-2012, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
I say ship him out ASAP, he still has value and honestly griess in my opinion has better skills for this sharks team. He can actually follow where his own rebounds go for one, and seems more solid in net, not always flailing about like nemo. We have a ton of young untapped goalies in the pipes and could really use the cap dump and possible returns from trading nemo.

Possilbly grab a vet goalie to back him up, platoon with Griess and play which ever one is hot, sort of exactly what should have been done more of this year, and a part of what helped to blues do well.
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Originally Posted by endy View Post
don't think niemi has that much value. he's okay but he's without a doubt slightly below average. keep in mind stl was one of the lower scoring teams in the league, yet we still got lit up for 2,3,4 goals. niemi's performance in the po was below average in the west, better than luongo or howard or crawford but worse than scheider, quick, elliot, smith, and rinne.

his rebound issues are horrendous and i think a reason why our defensive system blows. i think we should try stallock, he's been on the radar for like the past 5 years, time to give him a shot. he's not that young, he's been around forever. cory schneider is only a year older, and look at him now, he's going to replace luongo.

anyway while i dont blame him for our woes, he still wasn't very good this season.
This, although I do blame him a little more than some - several games this season were only lost because he let in soft goals, his play style and lack of control causes the team to panic in front of him when trying to clear the puck or cover for him being way out of position. I want him gone and would like to see Greiss or Stalock given a chance...we have goaltender depth, use it.

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04-23-2012, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Nighthock View Post
Niemi wasn't stellar this season, but proved he can handle the playoffs. We need a coach who can give him 25+ games off during the regular season. This will also give opportunity for youth to show what they have (or don't have)
With Greiss playing those 25+ extra games we'd probably have a better chance with him winning them than the coaching staff blaming the loss on Niemi, "getting into his groove."

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04-23-2012, 06:27 PM
  #13
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Originally Posted by Tw1ster View Post
With the depth with in the organization in terms of goaltending, would you guys like to see Niemi shipped out in order to give at least one of Sateri, Sexsmith, or Stalock a shot at the big leagues?
Not at this time - it's not 100% Nemos fault that the team is playing golf now.
I'd be less inclined to just give him the starts/games and more likely to play the best player. I think Nemo is a fine tender for us, he's a little goofy in holding on to some shots with his glove at times and sometimes his rebounds are not so great which impacts the team most on the PK the most. With that said we have some up and coming tenders that need a chance to see if they are NHL ready, Griess went a long way to prove himself to me this past year. In the past I was not convinced that he was an NHL goalie, he proved himself to me with his play this year. I'm just saying Nemo should be #1 till someone else takes his job like Nabber did to Shields.

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04-23-2012, 07:24 PM
  #14
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Replacing Niemi is #1 on my list, I wouldn't be averse to this but ideally we would have a better starter signed.

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04-23-2012, 07:27 PM
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I have faith Stalock will win a job in the big league during training camp. I won't be surprised if he outplays Niemi and takes the starting job either.

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04-23-2012, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Vajakki View Post
There's been a lot of talk about Luongo's contract and whether anyone wants it or not but I don't think that will be the biggest problem.
It is the biggest problem. In fact, it is THE reason why the Canucks are even looking to move him in the first place.

If his contract weren't an issue, Vancouver would be thrilled to have such a talented backup goalie on their roster. But that's the problem. In today's NHL, you simply can't afford to have $5+ million of cap space simply sitting on the bench as an insurance policy.

Yes, Luongo is a better goaltender than Antti Niemi. But the entire lesson of Antti Niemi is that the minimal difference in results is not worth the dramatic difference in value.

You don't need to pay top dollar for a 10-year finely crafted NHL veteran to get decent production. Evgeni Nabokov is a significantly better and more talented goaltender than Niemi. But regardless of whether it came by hook or by crook, at the end of the 2010 season Nabokov had a .922 save percentage, and Niemi had a .920 save percentage in 2011 (.915 in 2012). That's a difference of .002....or basically about 1 extra goal every 20 games or so.

The biggest reason (aside from advancing age and injury history) for replacing Nabokov with Niemi is that you don't need to pay $6+ million for .922 when $2 million will get you .920 or pretty close to it. Nabby was better, but he wasn't worth the money (especially not if he suffered a pulled groin midway through the season or something).

Painful as this is for me to say, goaltending just isn't a particularly valuable commodity in today's game. The difference in performance between the best goaltenders in the league and AHL callups is no more than one extra save per game......and a lot of even that has to do with the team involved, the matchup of goalie & defensive system and the relative health of the goaltender. The difference in save percentage between Henrik Lundqvist (.930) and Jonas Gustavsson (.902) is only 1 additional goal every 36 shots against....and even most of that difference can be attributed to the differences in talent between the Rangers and the Maple Leafs. Give Gustavsson 60 starts for the Rangers, and it's likely he posts at least a .910-.915 save percentage. Same in reverse if Lundqvist goes to Toronto.

Luongo isn't worth it for the same reason that the Blackhawks won the Cup with a guy who wasn't expected to even make their roster at the beginning of the season (Niemi) rather than the guy whom they paid $5-6 million to tend their goal (Huet). For the same reason that Brian Elliott--a guy who finished with a sub-.900 percentage in 2011--set the all-time NHL single season record this year....and still couldn't win the starter's job for St. Louis. For the same reason that guys like Boucher, Greiss, Toskala, Niittymaki, Stalock and even the great Nolan Schaefer have all posted decent to stellar numbers in their various stints with the Sharks. For the same reason that both Corey Schneider and the much maligned Corey Crawford have both posted better numbers this postseason than Luongo did in 2012 or 2010.

Even as an objectively better goaltender than Niemi, Luongo simply isn't worth tying up $5-6 million worth of cap space (enough for an extra 25-35 goal scorer) every year for the next decade when there is almost certainly some goaltender out there currently serving in the AHL (whether in the Sharks system or elsewhere) or toiling as some frustrated backup for some other team who could be just as good if not better if given the opportunity.

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04-23-2012, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Nighthock View Post
Niemi wasn't stellar this season, but proved he can handle the playoffs. We need a coach who can give him 25+ games off during the regular season. This will also give opportunity for youth to show what they have (or don't have)
He did? So these five games where he was average with a .914 save percentage proves what eighteen games last year didn't at an .896 save percentage. If you consider his series this year a good series, he's had four good series out of eight.

He's still inconsistent. He'll be good one month and poor the next. He'll be good one series and poor the next. I agree that he needs to be limited more by the coaching staff but it seems the team has given him this status that he hasn't ever really earned.

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04-23-2012, 07:51 PM
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He did? So these five games where he was average with a .914 save percentage proves what eighteen games last year didn't at an .896 save percentage. If you consider his series this year a good series, he's had four good series out of eight.

He's still inconsistent. He'll be good one month and poor the next. He'll be good one series and poor the next. I agree that he needs to be limited more by the coaching staff but it seems the team has given him this status that he hasn't ever really earned.
Statistically, this was his 3rd best performance in a playoff series in his career (as PF noted, out of 8 thus far). His efforts against the Sharks in 2010 and the Red Wings in 2011 were the only better ones.

So as bad as he was on some of those goals against (the series winning goal against, the one that squeaked through his pads that Vlasic scored on, and getting consistently beat by unscreened wrist shots from above the faceoff circles on the PK)....this was still one of his better postseason performances. An average Niemi performance (and/or against a better caliber offensive opponent) would've looked much worse.

ETA: Oh, and because I think it's relevant, for as good as their defense was, the Blackhawks PK unit in the 2010 playoffs was pretty bad, too. A paltry 82%. An even worse 77% over the final 3 rounds.

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04-23-2012, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by SJGoalie32 View Post
Statistically, this was his 3rd best performance in a playoff series in his career (as PF noted, out of 8 thus far). His efforts against the Sharks in 2010 and the Red Wings in 2011 were the only better ones.

So as bad as he was on some of those goals against (the series winning goal against, the one that squeaked through his pads that Vlasic scored on, and getting consistently beat by unscreened wrist shots from above the faceoff circles on the PK)....this was still one of his better postseason performances. An average Niemi performance (and/or against a better caliber offensive opponent) would've looked much worse.
That's kind of the whole point, this was a *good* playoffs for him and he was still a big problem.

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04-23-2012, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
Replacing Niemi is #1 on my list, I wouldn't be averse to this but ideally we would have a better starter signed.
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That's kind of the whole point, this was a *good* playoffs for him and he was still a big problem.
But wait......why would you think this would be a problem for the Sharks?

I thought you were quite clear about how it was all just a matter of bad "luck" and bad calls by the refs that beat us.

I don't understand.....how is replacing Niemi supposed to make the Sharks luckier? Did he not tap his goalposts in the right order enough times for the Sharks to win more games? Did he have the wrong rabbit's foot under his chest protector? Does he own a black cat?

And how is replacing Niemi going to make refs call more penalties in the Sharks favor. I mean, okay, I guess I could see how Luongo might be an upgrade as he's clearly a more skilled diver than Niemi and would thus draw more calls......

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04-23-2012, 08:18 PM
  #21
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Both Stalock and Sexsmith are RFAs...no way San Jose signs them both.

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04-23-2012, 08:22 PM
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Both Stalock and Sexsmith are RFAs...no way San Jose signs them both.
How come?

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04-23-2012, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by SJGoalie32 View Post
Statistically, this was his 3rd best performance in a playoff series in his career (as PF noted, out of 8 thus far). His efforts against the Sharks in 2010 and the Red Wings in 2011 were the only better ones.

So as bad as he was on some of those goals against (the series winning goal against, the one that squeaked through his pads that Vlasic scored on, and getting consistently beat by unscreened wrist shots from above the faceoff circles on the PK)....this was still one of his better postseason performances. An average Niemi performance (and/or against a better caliber offensive opponent) would've looked much worse.

ETA: Oh, and because I think it's relevant, for as good as their defense was, the Blackhawks PK unit in the 2010 playoffs was pretty bad, too. A paltry 82%. An even worse 77% over the final 3 rounds.
If we go off of save percentage, this was actually his 4th. His first playoff series against Nashville was better but your standard may have been different.

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04-23-2012, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
How come?
NHL: Niemi & Greiss
AHL: Sateri & one of Stalock or Sexsmith
ECHL: Heemskerk & Anderson (SJ will be affiliated with SF is my guess)

Where does the "loser" of Stalock/Sexsmith play? As folks should have realized after Niittymaki and Stalock were loaned out this season they're automatically the second fiddle where they end up, and that all but kills their development.

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04-23-2012, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by 210 View Post
NHL: Niemi & Greiss
AHL: Sateri & one of Stalock or Sexsmith
ECHL: Heemskerk & Anderson (SJ will be affiliated with SF is my guess)

Where does the "loser" of Stalock/Sexsmith play? As folks should have realized after Niittymaki and Stalock were loaned out this season they're automatically the second fiddle where they end up, and that all but kills their development.
Yeah. Stalock got a rough deal. As an aside, my "friend" who's a Rivs fan got all indignant because Stalock didn't show up for his final interview with Peoria and went off about how he's a terrible person and how the Rivs "gave him a chance" and "let him play" even though he got a total of two starts, both of which he was awesome in.

Goodbye Sexsmith, I guess.

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