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Poll: Who should be blamed for this loss?

View Poll Results: Who deserves the blame for the Pens first round exit?
Coaching Staff 46 34.59%
Management (Ray Shero) 4 3.01%
The Players 76 57.14%
Other 7 5.26%
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-23-2012, 11:39 AM
  #26
yuri28
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Originally Posted by spcastlemagic View Post
Malkin and Crosby, as leaders with letters on their jersey, are expected to provide more than just offense. Their on-ice leadership wasn't there and helped contribute to our lack of composure and discipline in games 1-3. And frankly, they didn't step up in the 2010 playoffs either. We won't win the cup with our superstars being outclassed by rookies.

I'm saying Fleury, Bylsma, the entire D-corps, and Shero should share more of the blame, but the only player who looks good after that series is Staal for me. He's the only player that stepped up his game.
Interesting remark.
I know Sid has proven in the past he could be a good two-way forward but still, nowhere near a Selke contender.
For Geno, it's even worse.
I wonder how much this serie will affect both of them in that aspect.
Perhaps that both Geno and Sid will work at becoming more and more two way forwards with the risk of decreasing their offensive numbers.

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Old
04-23-2012, 11:49 AM
  #27
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Players

seems like they are too over-confident. like they could win the series without 100% effort

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Old
04-23-2012, 11:51 AM
  #28
Le Magnifique 66
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The linesman for the non offside call in game 1


But honestly I've defended the guy over and over and is a big fan of his but Flower totally sucked in this series and if we want to win another Cup with this core he needs to be a lot better. Way to many **** goals

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04-23-2012, 12:02 PM
  #29
Shady Machine
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The biggest problems IMO in order of significance:

1. The PK
2. Team defense (or lack there of) in games 1-3
3. Fleury (arguably tied for second)
4. Our top 4 defensemen (specifically Martin and Orpik)
4. Bylsma
5. Sid and Geno not stepping up as leaders or taking over any game like we pay them to do.
6. Shero for not taking chances to pick up a stay at home dman (Gill and/or Grossman would have made a hell of a difference IMO) or a backup goalie (not sure who would have been available).
7. Everyone else

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Old
04-23-2012, 12:20 PM
  #30
dr robbie
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Lack of Defense - Martin needs to GO. Orpik didn't step up.
Poor Goaltending (aside from game 5) - yes, too many opportunities, but way too many soft goals.
Special teams - those SH goals and lack of PP goals were disgusting. And the PK was horrid as well.
Not changing up things when the series starting going downhill

Overall, I'd say all of the players came into the postseason with a poor attitude. They didn't give it everything in the first few games and that was enough to end our season.

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Old
04-23-2012, 12:24 PM
  #31
Shady Machine
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Originally Posted by dr robbie View Post
Lack of Defense - Martin needs to GO. Orpik didn't step up.
Poor Goaltending (aside from game 5) - yes, too many opportunities, but way too many soft goals.
Special teams - those SH goals and lack of PP goals were disgusting. And the PK was horrid as well.
Not changing up things when the series starting going downhill

Overall, I'd say all of the players came into the postseason with a poor attitude. They didn't give it everything in the first few games and that was enough to end our season.
Honestly if you would have told me coming into this series we would have 7 pp goals in 6 games and nothing else, I would have guessed we were the team that won the series. The PP could have been better but it was definitely successful. The PK, on the other hand, was pathetic.

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Old
04-23-2012, 12:25 PM
  #32
billybudd
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I vote coaching is mostly to blame. I'd follow that with defense and Fleury.

Coaching implemented a system that is very effective versus Toronto in December, but not so much in the playoffs. Teams have figured us out, and we make no adjustments to 'our game'.

I've never seen so many defensive breakdowns as I've seen with this team over the last month. Yes the players are playing terrible, but did guys like Orpik, Z, and Martin suddenly forget how to play the game? Z and Martin were highly touted d'men, and played great last year. What's changed with them, except an entire year now in our 'system' and playing our 'game'? Is Z instructed to flop to the ice instead of blocking shots like he was known for? Is Orpik instructed to leave his zone for a big hit constantly? Why are guys like Engelland, Orpik, and Z continually joining the rush, and not hanging back? How many times have we seen Engo, Orpik, Martin, etc behind the opposing goalies net? That's our 'system', and good teams will exploit it.

We can also get into specifics about coaching's inability or refusal to avoid/exploit line matchups. Their inability to make any adjustment whatsoever on a PK that was repeatedly humiliated this series. Another sub-par PP. Lack of discipline on the ice. Not pulling Fleury till after 6 goals in game 4?

Yes, lots of blame to go around. But my vote goes to coaching.

I think Tippet's system probably insulated Michalek from having to make complex reads, which is where he gets into trouble. In a more conservative scheme, it's possible he would be more effective.

Orpik is showing a lot of signs of wear and tear. He doesn't cover anywhere near the ground he did two years ago. Can't reverse the effects of time.

As for Martin, he's either hurt, washed up or his giva****ometer is broken. I doubt any change to what the team is doing would correct his game.

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Old
04-23-2012, 12:25 PM
  #33
spcastlemagic
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Originally Posted by yuri28 View Post
Interesting remark.
I know Sid has proven in the past he could be a good two-way forward but still, nowhere near a Selke contender.
For Geno, it's even worse.
I wonder how much this serie will affect both of them in that aspect.
Perhaps that both Geno and Sid will work at becoming more and more two way forwards with the risk of decreasing their offensive numbers.
The only offensive number I care about is win total.

"Two-way play" is part of where Sid and Malkin can improve, but for me it is more about setting the tone, and sending a message to the team about how they are going to play. Essentially, leadership.

Sid, Geno, and Letang are in a weird position in their careers. They've done it all and know they've done it all, so they don't have that passion that push themselves like they did in 09 (or Giroux right now). They can't do the furious young upstart thing. But neither are they these wily vets who know how to keep a locker room in check and get everybody to buy in.

For the last two years all it has been was "wait for us to be healthy, you just wait"... but then it came and the team fell apart and lost its character. Hopefully this failure will act as an impetus for the core to re-dedicate itself to playing the right way, and ditch the undeserved ego that keeps them from adapting and growing.

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Old
04-23-2012, 12:40 PM
  #34
Sidney the Kidney
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Originally Posted by spcastlemagic View Post
A total team meltdown can't be pinned on one individual. Not sure why Crosby and Malkin are getting through this gigantic failure of a playoff relatively unscathed.
Probably because they generated enough offense during the series that even with average goaltending/defense, the Pens easily win the series. They're tied for 3rd in playoff scoring. They did their part. Nothing they could do about horrible defense and a goalie with a .834 save percentage.

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Old
04-23-2012, 01:12 PM
  #35
Gold Diamond
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This system is not built for playoff success. We need to be able to tighten things up - we cannot do this with this set of players and system.

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Old
04-23-2012, 01:14 PM
  #36
Ragamuffin Gunner
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Team defense
Special teams
DB
MAF



Stupid penalties
Everything else

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Old
04-23-2012, 01:52 PM
  #37
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Penalty Kill --- we generate momentum off of that. There's no way you can tell me these guys were raring to go after seeing basic layups for the Flyers.

Fleury, Crosby, Malkin, and Letang --- our leaders ... each in their own way did not do that this series ... whether it's coming up with the big save, the big goal, staying out of the f-ing box, and keeping your ass on the ice when we need you. This was also the first year we really didn't have that "I've done this before veteran" prescence on the playoff squad too. Hopefully these four learn the lesson from this series.

Defense corps --- Whether it's the system or the players, just give me more heart. I'm a defense guy ... there is no reason why the Flyers should have had all these layups and breakaways. Force them to f-ing EARN it. That's what you do in the playoffs.

Bylsma --- I know he did not tell our players to go out and leave openings, leave rebounds, etc. And even though I don't want him gone, the buck stops with him. This cannot happen next year, period.

I can't really blame Shero because we all saw the prices people were dealing players for. I can't think of one dealt player that has been so impactful to his team in the playoffs yet ... Gaustad and his faceoffs might be it. Grossman was someone successful, Kubina wasn't, AK hasn't done much, Winnik and TJ did little for SJ.

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Old
04-23-2012, 02:13 PM
  #38
spcastlemagic
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Probably because they generated enough offense during the series that even with average goaltending/defense, the Pens easily win the series. They're tied for 3rd in playoff scoring. They did their part. Nothing they could do about horrible defense and a goalie with a .834 save percentage.
For all of the other problems with the team, they still didn't play very well - and yes, that's by their very high standards. If you want to be THE BEST PLAYERS IN THE WORLD, 1A and 1B, you have to do it when it counts, and those two didn't.

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Old
04-23-2012, 02:19 PM
  #39
Florentino Ariza
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Everything sucked. Incredibly, they could have won the series if they hadn't taken dumb penalties when they knew they would get killed by the Flyers. That has to fall on Bylsma. As the coach, if he wasn't openly sanctioning that kind of behavior (perhaps to send a message), he allowed it to happen.

Crosby lost all the composure that he needs to be a good captain and he looked like a little baby in game 3 (or whichever game that was).

Fleury kept giving up lame goals that made the team nervous in front of him

Nothing more needs to be said about Paul Martin.

The Flyers straight up put on a defensive clinic against Crosby and Malkin and they didn't take dumb penalties in the process. Even so, as everybody knows, we still could have won.

I still point to dumb penalties as the reason we lost the series. (dumb penalty --> inevitable Flyers goal --> deflation)

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Old
04-23-2012, 02:23 PM
  #40
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Fleury
Defense
Special teams/coaching
Fleury

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Old
04-23-2012, 02:25 PM
  #41
Mo Wanchuk
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Does anyone else think we need a "bad cop" assistant to offset Dan's good cop image?


This team does not fear the coach at all. The breakdowns during the regular season losing streak, isles games and then the first 2 games of the PO cemented the idea that he is not seen as a hardass. I for one would love to see MT brought back as an assistant.

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04-23-2012, 02:59 PM
  #42
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I voted coaching. The defense has been bad to terrible all season, with a few bright spots mixed in. Even during the winning streak it was bad, however, we were scoring 4-6 goals every game so it was overlooked. Go back and look at the GDTs from all season. The defense was bad. In my opinion, we scored enough goals to win every game but game 6. The fact that nothing changed systematically points to coaching. If Disco isn't gone, then I think we'll at least see the assistants go, and a message sent to Disco that he may be next.

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Old
04-23-2012, 03:48 PM
  #43
gordie
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Originally Posted by Mo Wanchuk View Post
Does anyone else think we need a "bad cop" assistant to offset Dan's good cop image?


This team does not fear the coach at all. The breakdowns during the regular season losing streak, isles games and then the first 2 games of the PO cemented the idea that he is not seen as a hardass. I for one would love to see MT brought back as an assistant.
What is missing is the urgency and hard edge and fear that the coaches doghouse was in your future if you didn't perform. Therrien loved to belittle Fleury, might need some more of that. Therrien loved in practice to see his players show some intensity. I remember one practice Kris Letang was tangling with a teamate and Therrien was yelling that's enough. When coaching an NHL team you want the foam to coming out of their mouths which hasn't been seen around these parts for 3 years.

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Old
04-23-2012, 03:57 PM
  #44
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1. Bylsma.

Keep in mind that last year and this year we were all pimping the depth and quality of our defense and now so many of you are over-reacting in the opposite direction. the personnel isnt as bad as it looked which means we need to look at the coach for possible improper utilization. Brooks orpik in particular seems to be regressing since we won the cup and that defies understanding. Usually defensemen get more solid as they age. Hes not old enough yet to account for this decline.

2. Maf. We pay him like a top 10 goaltender but he plays like a bottom ten goaltender who occasionally puts on a good show. Even this year when people were saying "where are the haters now?" Well he still didnt put up a great sv pct. He still sucks at playing the puck. He still gives up softies, and he sucked in the playoffs. He gets paid at least a million too much which couldve meant the difference in having hal gill as a rental or signing jagr instead of dupuis/kennedy/whoever.

3. Sid/Geno/Staal - all three of them need to be called out. Staal and sid were both in the vicinity of cross ice passes that ended up buried in the net. Neither one was playing defense like it mattered. This bothers me because i feel that they both regressed. Perhaps they think that they can succeed without the urgency that they played with in winning the cup? Maybe sid is still concussed? Either way i was not happy with the defensive effort from either player. Geno played his heart out but he just doesnt think the game right. His talent deserves the contract and he worked his butt off but it was so much wasted effort. Again i think coaching is an issue. If geno were more controlled hed be unstoppable.


So thats what i think. I think bylsma was outcoached. I think many of the forwards werent commited to playing a total game. I think maf has always been a weaker link than some of the fanbase believes and he was put in front of a cannon. Its not entirely fair to blame him for failing to save us but i think wed be stupid not to admit that hes not elite. He never was. Elite athlete maybe. Elite in shootouts. Elite at making highlight reels.
But elite goaltender? No.

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Old
04-23-2012, 04:02 PM
  #45
OGBobbyFarnham
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It's not hard to really, if you look at things logically:

-Flyers were a bad matchup for us. From the outset. I knew this was anyones series. The way we played and the NON-adjustments by the coaching staff were the most dissappointing for me.

-If you go back to game 1. DB's job should've been getting Geno away from Couturier and exposing the Philly's third D-Pair with his full offensive arsenal at his disposal. The glaring problems on the Defensive end were apparent to anyone who isn't blind.

-Game 2. Goes with the same lineup. I understand he gave them that chance. But to lose large again AND go with the same lineup for Game 3 was just mind boggling to me.

-Game 4, DB was forced to change things up front which actually benefitted him for the matchups. He actually "fell" into that scenario. The one thing i'll give him credit for was benching Martin but it was too late at that point.

-Game 5. Same lineup as Game 4. Great effort all around and we actually looked like a playoff team overall.

-Game 6. Massive failure not going with the same lineup. Just plain stupid. Theres no excuse for DB there. The effort slumped after the 2 soft goals from Fleury. They knew their goose was cooked and they didn't have the energy to get back into it. Credit the Flyers though. It was thier best defensive game of the series imo.

As for Fleury. He just got shakey after so many spots where he couldn't make a save to maintain the lead or to stop the bleeding. I felt bad for him. He wasn't getting much help until game 4.

I expected this to go either way. It's just the way we went out was dissappointing. Flyers put the spotlight on the problems. Against another team we may have escaped with just our offensive talent alone....Maybe.

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Old
04-23-2012, 04:07 PM
  #46
gordie
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Too much bad matchup talk. True Stanley Cup Champions can overcome any matchup that is why they lift the cup at the end of the season. When teams lose in the first round they have far bigger problems that have caused their failure then who they played in the first round.

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Old
04-23-2012, 04:15 PM
  #47
DoctrSteveBrule
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Originally Posted by gordie View Post
Too much bad matchup talk. True Stanley Cup Champions can overcome any matchup that is why they lift the cup at the end of the season. When teams lose in the first round they have far bigger problems that have caused their failure then who they played in the first round.
you can't set the bar at "must pass the first round" and not concern yourself with matchups. If you draw the line subjectively at the first round, then matchups play a key role. Would you be clamoring like its the end of the world like this if we played Florida in the first round, beat them and then lost in the 2nd or 3rd round?

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Old
04-23-2012, 04:18 PM
  #48
MetalheadPenguinsFan
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1. The Players (Primarily our defense and then Fleury to an extent. Goodness knows we scored enough.)

2. Bylsma (is he scared of timeouts or what???? Christ man...you had them. Why didn't use you them??? Or use them appropriately?)

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Old
04-23-2012, 04:19 PM
  #49
metalan2
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did you look at the stats i posted? Even strength MAF was better than Bryz. You can't fault Fleury for the multitude of ridiculous power play goals we gave up and 1 of the 3 SH goal was his fault.
You would think an NHL goalie would be able to make some saves on a powerplay. Not to mention your goaltender has to be your best penalty killer, MAF was the worst.


The Penguins lost a goalie battle where the other guy played terrible. I said before the series all we needed to win this series was MAF to play average, just average, and he played incredibly terrible again.


It comes down to him and that's it. Blame it on the defense all you want, but every defense needs a goalie that can stop pucks. MAF just does not do that well.

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Old
04-23-2012, 04:29 PM
  #50
Coach John McGuirk
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In no particular order:

Fleury
Bylsma
Defense
PK
Discipline
Malkin

If I had to put them in order:

1a. Defense
1b. PK
2. Fleury
3a. Discipline
3b. Bylsma
4. Malkin

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