- Crosby and Malkin weren't bad, but they weren't great either. It's fair to say they were outplayed by Giroux and Couturier, respectively.
I see the Couturier myth is reaching epic proportions.
He did not, in any sense, outplay Malkin. The corsi numbers of Malkin's line were through the roof -- twice as good as they were throughout the regular season against lesser competition. That is, the amount of ES shots his line generated massively dwarfed the ES shots they allowed while on the ice.
The main thing Malkin's line was missing was luck. For instance, the combined shooting percentage of the Penguins when Neal was on the ice 5-on-5 was just 2%. Two percent! That isn't going to happen very often, but unfortunately it did this series. A playoff series just isn't long enough for the luck to even out.
The only thing your data "suggests" is that we need to sign someone who can play 45+ games a year because Fleury can't handle the workload of a #1 goalie. It shows that when Fleury is tasked with playing #1 minutes, he is either average or downright sucks in the playoffs.
At that point, isn't it just a better idea to get someone who can actually play 60+ games AND perform in the playoffs? Especially considering the cost it will take to land a "backup" who has to basically play half the schedule.
Look at the two teams that made the Stanley Cup last year (57 games Thomas, 60 games Luongo)...
Now, 2010: Philly had a goaltending carousel, and Chicago went 39 Niemi, 48 Huet.
2009: 62 Fleury, 46 Osgood
2008: 35 Fleury, 43 Osgood
2007: 56 Giguere, 58 Emery
2006: 19 Roloson and 37 Markannen, 28 Ward
2004: 38 Mikka (Oh, wow, what a coincidence... Poor guy starts 70 every year), 55 Buhlin Wall
2003: 73 Brodeur, 65 Giguere
2002: 65 Hasek, 51 Irbe
I see the Couturier myth is reaching epic proportions.
He did not, in any sense, outplay Malkin. The corsi numbers of Malkin's line were through the roof -- twice as good as they were throughout the regular season against lesser competition. That is, the amount of ES shots his line generated massively dwarfed the ES shots they allowed while on the ice.
The main thing Malkin's line was missing was luck. For instance, the combined shooting percentage of the Penguins when Neal was on the ice 5-on-5 was just 2%. Two percent! That isn't going to happen very often, but unfortunately it did this series. A playoff series just isn't long enough for the luck to even out.
Thank You! I'm tired of hearing how great Couturier played. Yeah he may have been good for a 19 yr old but Malkin had a lot of good looks. Malkin's shot was off, for whatever reason, for a good portion of the series. He missed the net a lot, that had nothing to do with anyone shutting him down and more to do with him being off on his shot or maybe just trying to be too precise.
Who said anything about being dominant? At this point, I'd settle for above average. And based on those numbers, it doesn't appear Fleury can even be above average if he's tasked with playing more than 35 games in the regular season.
no, it says he can't be average if he's playing above 60 in the regular season.
I think sometimes it's hard to disconnect the people from the players. Fleury & Bylsma are great guys. They have had great success in the past but is that clouding our view? I'm not saying they should go but it's something that should be objectively looked at because both of them were not at their best against the Flyers.
Bylsma&coaching staff is only rivalled by Flower for this one.
And yes, the D and PK.... terrible, but it is less a matter of being individually terrible than being clueless as to defending against what Philly threw at us. Game in - game out. In the game of minds, our coaching staff didn't even turn up. Third year running.
Byslma's 'system' is one of constant attack, clearing the zone asap, getting to their zone asap, defense constantly joining the rush, etc.
Shero brough in players to fit that system; quick wingers, puck moving defensmen.
I've said before and I'll say it again, Byslma's system works great against teams like Toronto and Columbus in November. It simply doesn't translate well in the playoffs. I also said this team is too small to beat teams like NY, Boston, Philly, etc in a series. We could outskate those teams, but the problem is, when a team figures out a way to counter our system, we're done. Byslma doesn't know any other way to play, and even if he did, we don't have the players to implement it. When a team gets to their forecheck, we have no defense. When we have to dump, chase, and grind, we can't becasue we don't have the size to do it. When it comes to net front presence (offensive or defensive), we have none.
We saw Montreal 2 years ago completely collapse around Halak, blocking tons of perimeter shots, and it was successful. Philly did the same yesterday. Guys like Kunitz, Dupuis, Kennedy, Cooke, Sully, Park, etc are all nice players. But they aren't getting to the net to get those dirty 'playoff' goals. Staal is the smallest 6'5" player in the league. Orpik, Engo, Michalek should almost never get out of position by getting in deep. they are the prototypical stay at home defensemen, but Bylsma doesn't use them as such.
Add into the mix that IMO the Pens, to a man, were WAY too overconfident. Throw in extremely poor goaltending, and it all adds up to a first round collapse (again).
So this offseason, either Bylsma is going to have to be replaced, or his system altered. No use Shero bringing in rugged wingers if the dump and chase isn't part of the plan. No use bringing in a Hal Gill, if he's going to be expected to play like Paul Coffey. Then again, if Shero would have built a bigger, more physical team, Byslma's system may have changed out of necessity. Regardless, something has to fundamentally change with this team.
Tangradi is big but for some reason Bylsma doesn't look at his size and willingness to go in front on the net as any kind of asset the Pens could use like last year in Game 7 against Tampa when he was scratched.
did you read the post or just zoom to the bolded part? I said he's not Pekke Rinne and never will be but the least we could do is help him out with a serviceable back-up and decrease his workload because that has worked in the past. If he's so terrible then we won't be able to get anything for him on the open market so we might as well dump everyone and start the full rebuild because you can't go anywhere with a "terrible" goalie.
I know he's not Pekke Rinne, he's not even remotely close. The thing is he didn't need to be Rinne, he just needed to be average. Instead he throws in one of the worst ever playoff performances, and it was far from a fluke. It happens every year, and getting a serviceable backup will not change anything.
I honestly do not think the Pens could get anything good for Fleury besides his contract off the books.
Also, how does dumping Fleury equal a full rebuild? He is clearly holding this team back and will continue to do so.
A few more points about our coaching this series, and how bad it was.
Our PK was bad beyond words. When Martin was removed, Adams was out, it didn't matter one bit. It is 100% on coaching. They NEVER challenged anyone with the puck. Just sat back, watching cross ice passes, and every so often going after a loose puck. Giroux looked like Gretzky out there. Why? Nobody ever got in his face. Our PK's just collapsed around Fleury. Decent strategy, except nobody could clear anyone from the front of the net. Again, not adjusting strategy, and not playing to your PK's strengths (speed to disrupt shots and passes)= bad coaching.
Also with that PK, Staal was getting ***** in faceoffs. All series, Bylsma only ever once put Sid (his best faceoff ma) on the ice. Why didn't he do it more? Clearing the puck before Philly has a chance to set up seems like a pretty good plan. Must have never dawned on DB or Granato.
Are you discovering today that the Penguins have been a lousy defensive team for years? C'mon, look at the NHL stats for the last 10 seasons and you'll see that we've allowed a high number of goals year in and year out. The Penguins have never been famous for their shut down Defense. The good news is that our offense consistently compensated for our Defensive lousiness.
This would be fine is these stats applied to the post-season as well but unfortunately, the reality is completely different.
So, since it's been the same for many years now, it can't be the players. Of course the players could have played better defensively and for some of them, much better, but at the end of the day, 3 consecutive seasons of playoffs meltdown has to be pinned on Coaching and Management, not on the players. Just a final remark, if it was not for an incredible game by Fleury in the 7th game against Detroit in 2009, we would still be chasing our 1st post-Lemieux Stanley Cup.
My 2cts.
That series Fleury was the reason the Penguins even had to go to game 7.
Does everyone forget that MAF let in a TERRIBLE goal from Ericsson to make the game 2-1? The Penguins also played one of their best defensive games ever in the game. He didn't play bad by any means, but it was far from incredible.
A few more points about our coaching this series, and how bad it was.
Our PK was bad beyond words. When Martin was removed, Adams was out, it didn't matter one bit. It is 100% on coaching. They NEVER challenged anyone with the puck. Just sat back, watching cross ice passes, and every so often going after a loose puck. Giroux looked like Gretzky out there. Why? Nobody ever got in his face. Our PK's just collapsed around Fleury. Decent strategy, except nobody could clear anyone from the front of the net. Again, not adjusting strategy, and not playing to your PK's strengths (speed to disrupt shots and passes)= bad coaching.
Also with that PK, Staal was getting ***** in faceoffs. All series, Bylsma only ever once put Sid (his best faceoff ma) on the ice. Why didn't he do it more? Clearing the puck before Philly has a chance to set up seems like a pretty good plan. Must have never dawned on DB or Granato.
I said in another thread that I'm going to try to hold off on blaming the coach's too much until I get to see how other teams do against Philly's pp in the next series. If Philly lights up other teams then I'll just have to respect their pp for being great. If it is merely average ( like I suspect it will be) then maybe I'll start to look at the coaches. The problem is that it's hard to blame the coaches for not adjusting when they ranked so highly in the regular season. I'm watching other teams in the playoffs and they are all blocking shots. I don't think our D blocked much of anything. Aside from putting someone out there to win faceoffs like you say I'm not sure what else you can do when your players are simply snakebit and unable to get the puck back.
Michalek wasn't the problem. Orpik wasn't problem. Fleury wasn't the problem. It was all Lovejoy & Martin even when they weren't out there. I'm sorry but it looks like bad coaching at this point.
I blame the mis-aligned terminator eyes in Ugene Malkin's avatar. This team thrives on precision. Such carelessness is what throws a team out of balance. Also I continue to blame IHWR. Avatars are everything in this league.
I blame the mis-aligned terminator eyes in Ugene Malkin's avatar. This team thrives on precision. Such carelessness is what throws a team out of balance. Also I continue to blame IHWR. Avatars are everything in this league.
Haha, the program did that, and I thought reducing it you wouldn't be able to notice.
Pretty much why I chose Other and here is my 2 Bob's worth........
Shero did nothing during the trade deadline.
Sid returning sort of put everyone else off. It was like hey the best player in the world is back, now we can sit back do nothing and watch Sid do everything (not taking anything away from Sid). Now who does this remind me of...Oh yeah a certain Rugby side back in Australia that I go for (and yes we pretty much have 2 players who are very similar to Sid and Geno when they get chances)
I think this will give Sid a full off-season and Training Camp to get in top fitness shape and work on what went wrong. I think we will see beast-mode Sid next year
Marc-Andre Fleury I have to say got so overworked in the end because BJ is too old and is a has-been (i'm sorry if I offend anyone here but it's the truth). I think a solid and consistent back-up goalie would be a good idea and maybe give Brad Theissen a game or 2 here or there.
Defence in the last 2 or 3 weeks of the regular season became pissweak. I have been saying since the Trade Deadline that Brooks has to go along with Paul Martin (I CBF thinking of others at the momemt).
I don't think any of the RFA's will be re-signed.
Dan Bylsma: Yes I think he lost the plot in the end and I also think he is too close to and is more of a mate to all the players. He also had no answer to what the "Dark Side of the Force" inflicted on the whole team.
Last but not least. I had a bad feeling that the moment Max and Jaromir joined the "Dark Side of the Force", I knew we were done for - bigtime.
That's it for now. Give me a week and I might change my mind.
That series Fleury was the reason the Penguins even had to go to game 7.
So the Penguins dominated the Red Wings so much so that only their weak goaltender held them back? Did he lose them games 1, 2, and 5?
Quote:
Originally Posted by metalan2
Does everyone forget that MAF let in a TERRIBLE goal from Ericsson to make the game 2-1? The Penguins also played one of their best defensive games ever in the game. He didn't play bad by any means, but it was far from incredible.
No, I guess the last-second, cup-winning save on Lidstrom helped erase that terrible goal. Now that you mention it, what exactly was terrible about that screened bomb into the top corner?
In this series MAF was not good enough; that much is certain. It didn't help that on almost every instance you wanted to point a direct finger at him, there was an open man not picked up in the crease, a player given more than moments to make a pass or pick a corner, or a backcheck that didn't exist.
It's a tough time, one filled with emotions and a desire to find the root of the problem. Pointing the finger at MAF is the easy out, and one that doesn't address the entirety of the collapse of each and every component of the organization. The saga that was Paul Martin, the pace at which Orpik failed to keep up with, the soft goals that stung from MAF, the lack of backcheck from just about every forward, the defensive blue-line giveaways from forwards and defensemen alike, the PK's brutal failures, the short-handed goals allowed, the refusal to address line match-ups, not going with players that were effective (yes, I wanted Tangradi dressed over Adams), or the unfortunately low shooting percentage from the top line...just about EVERYTHING went wrong, and on top of that the Flyers capitalized on just about every opportunity they were given. It was a perfect storm...and it still went 6.
Thank You! I'm tired of hearing how great Couturier played. Yeah he may have been good for a 19 yr old but Malkin had a lot of good looks. Malkin's shot was off, for whatever reason, for a good portion of the series. He missed the net a lot, that had nothing to do with anyone shutting him down and more to do with him being off on his shot or maybe just trying to be too precise.
Yep,not to mention that as i said in other threads, it's not like Couturier was the only Flyer to shadow Geno.
The guy was litterally having 2-3 defenders on him almost everytime he had the puck.
People say Giroux completely outplayed him (which is true) but let's for example compare the space Giroux had in PP with the space Geno had.
I was amazed at the space Giroux benefited in some PPs......fantastic PK from us!
This said, no one can deny Geno could have dealed better with that.
A few more points about our coaching this series, and how bad it was.
Our PK was bad beyond words. When Martin was removed, Adams was out, it didn't matter one bit. It is 100% on coaching. They NEVER challenged anyone with the puck. Just sat back, watching cross ice passes, and every so often going after a loose puck. Giroux looked like Gretzky out there. Why? Nobody ever got in his face. Our PK's just collapsed around Fleury. Decent strategy, except nobody could clear anyone from the front of the net. Again, not adjusting strategy, and not playing to your PK's strengths (speed to disrupt shots and passes)= bad coaching.
Also with that PK, Staal was getting ***** in faceoffs. All series, Bylsma only ever once put Sid (his best faceoff ma) on the ice. Why didn't he do it more? Clearing the puck before Philly has a chance to set up seems like a pretty good plan. Must have never dawned on DB or Granato.
This was false, the players over committed a lot and got pulled out of their box easily. Their box was never kept tight and got spread out where the box was wide open for cross ice passes. Down low on the PK wasn't much better.
You give them the perimeter like so many do to the Pens and keep the box tight while staying in the lanes. This wasn't a team to be aggressive with and it was so eye opening how much room they had in the middle of the box to make plays.
The forwards needed to be at just above the top of the hash marks and most times they were too close to the blueline chasing.
This was false, the players over committed a lot and got pulled out of their box easily. Their box was never kept tight and got spread out where the box was wide open for cross ice passes. Down low on the PK wasn't much better.
You give them the perimeter like so many do to the Pens and keep the box tight while staying in the lanes. This wasn't a team to be aggressive with and it was so eye opening how much room they had in the middle of the box to make plays.
The forwards needed to be at just above the top of the hash marks and most times they were too close to the blueline chasing.
I agree with the first part. The D was getting out of position. However, the forwards were never challenging anybody.
Dejan commented on this yesterday on the Fan. He basically said if you watch closely, the front of the Flyers jerseys ALWAYS faced the middle of the ice on the PP. Meaning that, there was never any pressure on them. It's easy to make passes when you have all day. Compare that with our PP. We constantly had trouble getting set up, and even when we did, there were battles along the boards, Flyers harassing our point men (leading to 3 SH goals), getting in Pens faces and lanes, etc. Our PK did none of that. I think we gave them too much respect.
Keeping a tight box is great (that's what she said), IF you can keep people away from the front of your net. Our D couldn't do that. Instead, someone would get the puck down low, and BOTH our D would follow them all around the ice.
I blame the mis-aligned terminator eyes in Ugene Malkin's avatar. This team thrives on precision. Such carelessness is what throws a team out of balance. Also I continue to blame IHWR. Avatars are everything in this league.
My post SOPO avatar will be up for a day or so...then I've got a new one prepped and ready to go.
