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Simmonds + Schenn > Richards? Couturier + Voracek > Carter?

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Old
04-23-2012, 11:57 AM
  #1
Defmincex13
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Simmonds + Schenn > Richards? Couturier + Voracek > Carter?

Simmonds + Schenn > Richards?
Couturier + Voracek > Carter?

Agree/Disagree.

At this point after now advancing in the first round. I think its a good time to reflect on what we have gained by subtraction. I can safely say at this point in my mind that the Flyers have come out on top with there off season trades involving these players. This last round vs the penguins has proven it. Now if the Flyers only did one of either of these looking like a loss. So lets look at Richards first.

Couturier after his ability to shut down Malkin most of the series has shown me hes a better D minded forward then Richards. +1 for Paul. Simmonds brings just as much if not more grit and jam then Richards and is clear and away better then richards on the fore check and in the crease area as a power forward role. Schenn brings the hard hits just as well as Richards and at the right times. +2 Paul. All of these players can score just as easily as Richards could in my mind. Flyers come out on top with trading away Richards.

Now we look at Carter. None of the 4 players can skate in the zone and score ( i mean miss high and wide) as effortlessly as Carter can. In all seriousness Carter was a big body and a goal scorer. But looking at Voraceks puck handling and ability to enter the zone and get us set up without having to dump and chase is so valuable. Something Carter or Richards could not do on regular basis. Then you go back to the fact that all 4 players can and do score in big moments. Schenn and Couturier are solid faceoff guys and none of the 4 are defensive liabilities.

Now I was a huge fan of both Carter and Richards and still respect them as players. But essentially the Flyers were able to take 2 players, split there talents and abilities up into 4 players and let those 4 guys do what they do best and hone and focus on being a particular type of player. I think we can all agree the way the Flyers were set up, they had to put to many hats on Richards and Carter thus spreading them out a bit to thin.

The icing on the cake is that Schenn and Couturiers ceilings are still pretty high and they have been put in a great place for the next 2 seasons to grow without having the weight of being stars on this team just yet. And that will pay huge dividends in the next 5 to 10 years of this organization.

Simmonds and Voracek have room for growth but I would say you will never see these guys double there yearly stats while the rookies will.

We still have a long way to go in the playoffs to call this season a success. But what if we saw Phi vs LA in the cup finals??!??!! What would really be a shot in the gut is if that happened and Carter and Richards won the cup vs the flyers. Gagne I would be happy regardless granted hes not playing.

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Old
04-23-2012, 12:01 PM
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StandingCow
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I wasn't a fan of the richards trade, as much as I like simmer and Schenn, I still wouldn't mind still having Richards... but loving Simmonds and Schenn.

Huge fan of the Carter trade. Was really happy when we let him go, he didn't seem to show up in big games and was having injury issues... plus the return.. my god... is amazing.

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Old
04-23-2012, 12:01 PM
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I think the Flyers got more benefit out of these trades this year, but time will tell really. Carter scored 40 once before and a full season in LA could see him reach that again, if not higher. Richards seems to be playing the same game out there as he did here and there is certainly nothing wrong with that. Meanwhile, we all know how well these moves worked out for the Flyers this season. That being said, there is no guarantee that Couturier, Schenn, Simmonds, and Voracek will continue their ascent. They could plateau earlier than you think. I'm not saying this will happen, but like most things, I am not going to jump to conclusions after a small sample size. For now, Flyers are winning this trade. Ask me again in a couple years.

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04-23-2012, 12:08 PM
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Drink: Totally hear you. As it stands any combination 2 of sean, wayne, jakub, brayden would right now not equal the current value of Richards or Carter. But the way this team is set up and the roles these players are asked to play. I don't see us feeling the same way about this team this year if we still had Richards and Carter. Throw in the fact that moving them allowed Giroux to get more ice time.

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04-23-2012, 12:09 PM
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I'm undecided on the Richards trade.

The Carter trade was a huge win. Frankly, Jake & Couturier are both better players than Carter, and I say that as a fan of Jeff Carter's. Cousins looks like he'll be a player as well.

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04-23-2012, 12:11 PM
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Love the trades.

I'll admit I was worried about the Richards trade, but now I couldn't be happier.

Don't get me wrong, I did like Richards when he was here, but the vibe around this team is so different now. I feel like there is more determination and sacrifice on this team than on prior years. And I don't know if it's just in my head or not, but I feel like this team is one unit when in the past I felt like it was cliquey.

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04-23-2012, 12:15 PM
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I think it's pretty clear that both trades have worked out for the best.

The Flyers are a much deeper team to play against and for all the crap that Bryzy has received (justifiably so) they do have a legit #1 goalie and a deep team.

I had my doubts, but the Flyers did very well on both trades.

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04-23-2012, 12:16 PM
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You are forgetting two huge aspects of these trades. Most importantly, they wanted to change the partying culture and morbid locker room. Secondly, Carter's contract is bad. Getting rid of that is a big plus.

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04-23-2012, 12:19 PM
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Mja: I think the Carter trade makes the Richards trade a win. I see your point if you look at them alone. But the skills sets obtained by the Carter trade replace anything the flyers may have lost with Richards. And that 7th overall pick in Couturier is it.

Again, nothing against Richards and Carter. This is not based purely on talent and skill, but for the molding of a roster. In a way the organization was able to breakdown the abilities of Richards and Carter and build them back up in 4 players instead of 2 (depth among perfection of the talents). Doing this with allowing Giroux to become the #1 center and become what we see now along with some luck with the play of Read/talbot/hartnell has been huge. Pauly H has really worked some magic.

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04-23-2012, 12:21 PM
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As of today, I'd say that equation only holds for the Carter trade.

Watching the Kings game last night, Carter missed some glorious chances to ice the game in the third and in ot. He completely gassed it and missed the net by a mile, more than once. I couldn't help but think that's why we got rid of him. Total ghost in the playoffs. Jake on the PP and Couts in a checking role easily exceed what Carter brought.

As for the Richards trade, I'd say it's pretty even. All else equal, I don't think we are a better team with our #2 line as Briere-Schenn-Simmonds as we would be with Briere-Richie-JVR/Jake.

Once you factor in the culture change and future returns I think we could easily come ahead in both

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04-23-2012, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Defmincex13 View Post
Mja: I think the Carter trade makes the Richards trade a win. I see your point if you look at them alone. But the skills sets obtained by the Carter trade replace anything the flyers may have lost with Richards. And that 7th overall pick in Couturier is it.

Again, nothing against Richards and Carter. This is not based purely on talent and skill, but for the molding of a roster. In a way the organization was able to breakdown the abilities and Richards and Carter and build them back up in 4 players instead of 2. Doing this with allowing Giroux to become the #1 center and become what we see now along with some luck with the play of Read/talbot/hartnell has been huge. Pauly H has really worked some magic.
Spreading this sort of talent out over 4 lines is just ridiculous. It's amazing the depth we have at forward. It's unreal actually.

If Bryz plays solid, and our defense actually plays defense, we have quite the all around team. If Pronger and Mez were in the lineup with a solid Bryz, we'd be unstoppable and it's not even close.

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04-23-2012, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stizzle View Post
You are forgetting two huge aspects of these trades. Most importantly, they wanted to change the partying culture and morbid locker room. Secondly, Carter's contract is bad. Getting rid of that is a big plus.
Yea, that alone makes me edge toward being happy with the Richards trade as well.

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04-23-2012, 12:24 PM
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Simmonds + Schenn + Grossmann = Richards
Voracek + Couturier + Cousins = Carter

We won both.

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04-23-2012, 12:25 PM
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It increased our depth. When I look at the number of good forwards now , I see about 10 or 11. That's two more than without the trade.

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04-23-2012, 12:25 PM
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Can't believe some of the responses here...these trades were a fleecing IMO. I think the Flyers won on both of these trades in the present, forget about 2-3 years from now. Also, you can throw Cousins in the mix on Carter trade who is an X factor.

Simmonds went 28-21 for 49 points vs. Richards 18-26 for 44 points...then throw in Schenn's 12 goals in half a season. Carter was 21-13 for 34 points vs. Voraceks 18-31 for 49 points adn Couts 13-14 for 27 points. It's not even close.

ETA....Shafer's post wrt Grossman for the 2nd rounder even makes it that much more of a landslide. This will end up being like the Recchi trade times 2.

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04-23-2012, 12:29 PM
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If we only did one of the deals:

Jagr-Giroux-Hartnell
Simmonds-Briere-Schenn
Voracek-Read-JVR
Talbot-Couturier-Wellwood

Jagr-Giroux-Hartnell
Voracek-Briere-JVR
Read-Richards-Wellwood
Talbot-Couturier-Rinaldo

Jagr-Giroux-Hartnell
Read-Briere-JVR
Simmonds-Carter-Wellwood
Talbot-Schenn-Rinaldo

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04-23-2012, 12:30 PM
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Which trade looks better today is the more difficult question imo...

I obviously lean more towards the Carter trade because I think Carter is worst and Couturier is the best player on our side of the equation with Voracek being right behind. The Richards trade offers 3 current players, however, so it's a solid debate.

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04-23-2012, 12:31 PM
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StandingCow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Simmonds + Schenn + Grossmann = Richards
Voracek + Couturier + Cousins = Carter

We won both.
Yea, looking at it like that, both trades were big wins.

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04-23-2012, 12:35 PM
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Yea, looking at it like that, both trades were big wins.
and that is in the present forgetting that this was done as a long range move and Voracek is 22, Couts 19, Schenn 20 and Simmonds 23 for 2 27 year olds that will likely have diminishing stats while the Flyers players continue to improve.

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04-23-2012, 12:36 PM
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I'm undecided on the Richards trade. I need to see more from Schenn.

Carter trade was doubtful when it was just Voracek and ?, began looking pretty good when ? became Couturier, and now looks great now that Couturier has become awesome.

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Old
04-23-2012, 12:41 PM
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All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.


Arthur Schopenhauer
German philosopher (1788 - 1860)


I was at the third stage all along and I cannot fathom those stuck at the 1st two stages...

Anyway...trades were a coup IMO....especially the Carter trade. Both trades made us different initially and now we are better. Trade extended our window of success..made us deeper, stronger, faster, younger and hungrier.

Have no doubts whatsoever....

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04-23-2012, 12:44 PM
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It's hard to say because Richards and Carter were signed long term. If they have very successful careers, and the Flyers can't retain the players they traded them for, is it still considered a win?

If we win a cup with these guys than yes, but there may be some cap casualties from this group in just a couple years. Possibly even this offseason with Voracek.

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04-23-2012, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
It's hard to say because Richards and Carter were signed long term. If they have very successful careers, and the Flyers can't retain the players they traded them for, is it still considered a win?

If we win a cup with these guys than yes, but there may be some cap casualties from this group in just a couple years. Possibly even this offseason with Voracek.
but even if you can't retain them all you can still trade them for more young assets/draft picks down the road.

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04-23-2012, 12:56 PM
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I am a huge Richards fan but I still think it was a great trade with LAK.


CLB got robbed.

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04-23-2012, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
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It's hard to say because Richards and Carter were signed long term. If they have very successful careers, and the Flyers can't retain the players they traded them for, is it still considered a win?

If we win a cup with these guys than yes, but there may be some cap casualties from this group in just a couple years. Possibly even this offseason with Voracek.
Long term this group has much more potential especially when you factor Couturier's upside alone....to me it's a slam dunk ala Jordan and Blake Griffin combined

I don't see many cap casualities especially with players like Briere and Timonen on the outs..then you have Carle who will prolly be signed by Detroit and then all the other detritis like Shelley, Lilja etc who will free up money. Even JVR can be leveraged if need be..

Flyers will lock up most of this young core one way or another. I'm not concerned and again Holmgren did exactly what was needed by extending the window with all the affordable salaries he acquired in these trades. He finally is managing the cap a bit better with having a good mix of young players who are producing with reasonable salaries and then solid veterans who are productive and mentor. Only anchor contract is Bryz's for the most part that ties us up but if he can get a cup it will be more palatable but yeah still not an ideal long term commitment especially given his still questionable demeanor...

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