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Old
04-24-2012, 01:31 AM
  #101
SilverHaireDevil
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Your reasoning has merit based on a particular strategy, but there is a much realistic way read this offer sheet situation. First of all it does not happen as much as people think and for good reason. It does in fact put a target on that particular GM, and makes future dealings with teams harder. Many people in the business world would call this "career suicide". GM thinks about his career as much as the rest of us, maybe more. The second point is that this situation will most likely dealt with before/at the draft. Therefore Schneider will never reach any sort of free agency.
29 teams are not going to stop dealing with a GM who offer sheets a player, since those same offer sheets are a legitimate and legal way to aquire talent for your team under the current CBA.

Don't be surprised this summer when it happens, highly sought after RFA's almost always see an offer sheet if they haven't signed by July 1st. With zero cap room before July 1st it would be a huge risk to sign Schneider to a big money deal if they haven't been able to move Bobby Lou. Ask Chicago what happens when you exceed the salary cap.

If your current boss offers you 100k a year, and his competitor offers you 200k do you stay in your current job because you like the people you work with?

Anyways going to be a stomach churning ride for Canuck fans till the draft.

I hope you guys manage to keep Cory Schneider and find someone to take Roberto Luongo off your hands, I just don't see it as a likely scenario. (unless you basically wind up giving him away)

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04-24-2012, 01:38 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by SilverHaireDevil View Post
29 teams are not going to stop dealing with a GM who offer sheets a player, since those same offer sheets are a legitimate and legal way to aquire talent for your team under the current CBA.

Don't be surprised this summer when it happens, highly sought after RFA's almost always see an offer sheet if they haven't signed by July 1st. With zero cap room before July 1st it would be a huge risk to sign Schneider to a big money deal if they haven't been able to move Bobby Lou. Ask Chicago what happens when you exceed the salary cap.

If your current boss offers you 100k a year, and his competitor offers you 200k do you stay in your current job because you like the people you work with?

Anyways going to be a stomach churning ride for Canuck fans till the draft.

I hope you guys manage to keep Cory Schneider and find someone to take Roberto Luongo off your hands, I just don't see it as a likely scenario. (unless you basically wind up giving him away)
The last two big rfa's after July 1st are.......

Drew Doughty

Steven Stamkos

"highly sought after RFA's almost always see an offer sheet if they haven't signed by July 1st"

These two I think were even more sought after than Schneider. Neither took offer sheets, and we all know Doughty was in it for the money!!

Schneider will be signed before draft that will nullify this entire argument.

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04-24-2012, 01:48 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
The last two big rfa's after July 1st are.......

Drew Doughty

Steven Stamkos

"highly sought after RFA's almost always see an offer sheet if they haven't signed by July 1st"

These two I think were even more sought after than Schneider. Neither took offer sheets, and we all know Doughty was in it for the money!!

Schneider will be signed before draft that will nullify this entire argument.
Those are both bad examples. In both cases the teams were able to match any offer that was given, so why would a team bother to make an offersheet? It just looks bad and doesn't accomplish anything.

In the Canucks case, they are dealing with an asset that they can't afford to match as much as other teams can pay, given that Luongo is still taking up $5.33mill of cap space as a goalie. Teams may look at that situation and be more likely to test it with an offer sheet... similar to what the Hawks did with Chicago - offer sheeting Hjalmarsson and when the Hawks matched, went after Niemi. They knew that the Hawks would be vulnerable to an offer sheet given their tight cap space that season. Same thing happened with Kesler and the Canucks.

I could definitely see Schneider getting an offer sheet this summer... I believe that Gillis has to address this situation before letting him get to that point where he's at risk of an offer sheet.

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04-24-2012, 01:53 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
The last two big rfa's after July 1st are.......

Drew Doughty

Steven Stamkos

"highly sought after RFA's almost always see an offer sheet if they haven't signed by July 1st"

These two I think were even more sought after than Schneider. Neither took offer sheets, and we all know Doughty was in it for the money!!

Schneider will be signed before draft that will nullify this entire argument.
Neither got offer sheets because of the draft picks that the team offering the sheet would have to pay in compensation and because the team that the RFA plays for has the right to match the offer sheet, Schneider gets an offer for 4.5 mil then its a 1st a 2nd and a 3rd pick as payment in return for him, pretty decent deal value wise since the Canucks would probably be able to get better than that in a trade.

If its a team like Chicago or San Jose who does the offer sheet those draft picks would be in the later parts of the round. Not a bad price to pay if you are one of those types of teams.

The cap space taken up by an offer sheet like that would leave the Canucks with 4.5 mil in cap space (if they match the offer, which in turn prevents the player from being traded for a calendar year) to resign 3 RFA's and to replace 6 UFA's, Not a pretty picture for the Canucks, and why I think that he will be traded. Just my opinion formed by the realities of the situation.

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04-24-2012, 02:48 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heathfilms View Post
2nd rd pk 2012, Nazem Kadri


Thoughts?

change that 2nd to your 1st then maybe you have a deal I know that NYI and CBJ would offer there 1st to get Cory
no we would not, and i doubt columbus would either, take off your rose colored glasses, cory is one year from UFA and has yet to be a number one goalie in this league. he looks like he may turn out to be, but theres a difference between being a backup and having the pressure of having all the weight on your shoulders full time

nobody is giving a top 5 pick for Schneider, and experienced canuck fans know this like NFITO

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Old
04-24-2012, 03:31 AM
  #106
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no we would not, and i doubt columbus would either, take off your rose colored glasses, cory is one year from UFA and has yet to be a number one goalie in this league. he looks like he may turn out to be, but theres a difference between being a backup and having the pressure of having all the weight on your shoulders full time

nobody is giving a top 5 pick for Schneider, and experienced canuck fans know this like NFITO
You don't trade for him unless you believe that he'll be that guy and give him a longterm deal. IMO if Schneider is traded, he also gets a long term extension from whoever gets him.

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Old
04-24-2012, 03:39 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by SilverHaireDevil View Post
The Canucks are married to Bobby Lou, his NTC and NMC give him the house if there is a divorce, its time to ship your ginger mistress to a friend out east and get some nice stuff in return.

Or keep the mistress and get badly burned in the divorce.

Not an easy choice for GMMG , easy choice for fans( keep the mistress )

From an asset management point of view, divorcing the wife is going to be ugly.
You mean how Dan Boyle's NTC made sure he stayed in TB?

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04-24-2012, 04:54 AM
  #108
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You mean how Dan Boyle's NTC made sure he stayed in TB?
I've already stated my thoughts on this subject.

as for Dan Boyle well,

Despite coming off a recent contract extension with the Lightning, on July 4, 2008, Boyle was traded along with Brad Lukowich to the San Jose Sharks in exchange for Matt Carle, Ty Wishart, a first round draft pick in 2009 and a fourth round draft pick in 2010.[9] Boyle was pressured to waive his no-trade clause by Tampa Bay's new ownership, who said they would otherwise place him on waivers where he would likely be claimed by the Atlanta Thrashers. Already knowing Joe Thornton, Patrick Marleau and Evgeni Nabokov, Boyle agreed to be traded to the Sharks.

with a choice between the Thrashers and the Sharks, kind of a no brainer on Boyles part.

Putting Luongo on waivers will give many teams a nice shot at a good goalie signed long term with the Canucks on the hook for half the cap and half the pay for the next ten years, I'm sure the Columbus Blue Jackets or the Edmonton Oilers would be glad to scoop up Bobby lou for half price since they would be in the 1st and 2nd priority slot for the wire, it doesn't do a bunch to address the Canucks very real cap issues.

This IMO would be pretty ugly in the eyes of Canucks fans and ownership.

Better to get something (however small) instead of risking Bobby Lou playing for the Oilers yes? if he went to Columbus perhaps we get a 4th 1st overall pick and take Mckinnon instead?

Either of those scenarios make Canuck fans happy?

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04-24-2012, 09:48 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberTwice View Post
To Toronto: Corey Schneider

To Vancouver:

2nd rd pk 2012, 4th rd pk, Carter Ashton

or

2nd rd pk 2012, Nazem Kadri


Thoughts?
I am not sold on Schneider, yet, i'd still say he's worth a 10-15 1st round pick, and a top 6 prospect.

i.e.
if you wanted to use the Leafs and Carter Ashton the Leafs would need to aquire the Capitals pick

more likely TB offers 10th, and Tokarski ...which some may consider overpayment, and Van fans may laugh at.

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04-24-2012, 10:05 AM
  #110
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If the Canucks would have to take Komisarek they would just walk to another team.
Yup....cause there is an assload of teams lining up to take on a 10 year contract for a 33 year old goalie.

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04-24-2012, 10:09 AM
  #111
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I am not sold on Schneider, yet, i'd still say he's worth a 10-15 1st round pick, and a top 6 prospect.

i.e.
if you wanted to use the Leafs and Carter Ashton the Leafs would need to aquire the Capitals pick

more likely TB offers 10th, and Tokarski ...which some may consider overpayment, and Van fans may laugh at.
How can you not be sold on him. There's only one reason for that and that's either a lack of hockey knowledge or you just haven't watched him play.

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04-24-2012, 11:26 AM
  #112
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His value has skyrocketed this post season. I think a top 6 forward, top prospect are a must in any deal. I think Vancouver will be looking for a mid 1st round pick as well (If they even consider trading him.) I think he could have been acquired for a moderate package pre-deadline. Now he will cost premium because of his age and skill.

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04-24-2012, 11:54 AM
  #113
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Hoping Chicago puts in a big offer sheet that VAN has to match because with Schneider in net & that lineup VAN would be lucky to get any kind of high pick.

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04-24-2012, 12:04 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Sorry man, I disagree with your "dump him at any price" kind of mentality. He's still a stellar goalie, so we don't settle for Komisarek and a pick. If Gillis was going to take any offer, Schnedier would have carried the Avs into the playoffs this season and we'd have Duncan Siemen in our prospect pool.
I agree with NFITO that Luongo is the one to go, not Schneider, and that Van should be willing to take a lesser package to make that happen. I will give an example - not a proposal, just an example - if we were looking to trade a goalie to TB, then a package for Schneider would require TB's 1st + a good prospect. a Luongo deal would probably look more like Detroit's 1st and a mid level prospect. So you take less value back to ensure Schneider stays

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04-24-2012, 12:14 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by mydnyte View Post
I am not sold on Schneider, yet, i'd still say he's worth a 10-15 1st round pick, and a top 6 prospect.

i.e.
if you wanted to use the Leafs and Carter Ashton the Leafs would need to aquire the Capitals pick

more likely TB offers 10th, and Tokarski ...which some may consider overpayment, and Van fans may laugh at.
I'm not sure what else Schneider needs to do to convince you, but fortunately convincing you isn't a priority of his. As for value, your trade vales aren't too far off, I agree a top half of the round 1st + a good prospect is probably the value but with Lack, Cannata and Honzik in the system I can't see any interest in Tokarski what-so-ever

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04-24-2012, 12:36 PM
  #116
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How can you not be sold on him. There's only one reason for that and that's either a lack of hockey knowledge or you just haven't watched him play.
Simple, I've watched Toskala (most recent example) ...some goalies are great backups, but, suck as starters.

Although Schneider seems great, he's playing on a good defensive team as a backup.

Once he's played a full season as a starter, then he is a starter, until then, there will be questions.

Potential is great, and the likelihood of success is also great, but, there is always a reason for doubt.

...do you think he would have been great on the Leafs last season? ...I dont think so, how about Columbus, or the Oilers.

Bad defensive teams can make great goalies look bad. ...and can make average goalies look great (or utterly pathetic).

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04-24-2012, 12:43 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by SilverHaireDevil View Post
I've already stated my thoughts on this subject.

as for Dan Boyle well,

Despite coming off a recent contract extension with the Lightning, on July 4, 2008, Boyle was traded along with Brad Lukowich to the San Jose Sharks in exchange for Matt Carle, Ty Wishart, a first round draft pick in 2009 and a fourth round draft pick in 2010.[9] Boyle was pressured to waive his no-trade clause by Tampa Bay's new ownership, who said they would otherwise place him on waivers where he would likely be claimed by the Atlanta Thrashers. Already knowing Joe Thornton, Patrick Marleau and Evgeni Nabokov, Boyle agreed to be traded to the Sharks.

with a choice between the Thrashers and the Sharks, kind of a no brainer on Boyles part.

Putting Luongo on waivers will give many teams a nice shot at a good goalie signed long term with the Canucks on the hook for half the cap and half the pay for the next ten years, I'm sure the Columbus Blue Jackets or the Edmonton Oilers would be glad to scoop up Bobby lou for half price since they would be in the 1st and 2nd priority slot for the wire, it doesn't do a bunch to address the Canucks very real cap issues.

This IMO would be pretty ugly in the eyes of Canucks fans and ownership.

Better to get something (however small) instead of risking Bobby Lou playing for the Oilers yes? if he went to Columbus perhaps we get a 4th 1st overall pick and take Mckinnon instead?

Either of those scenarios make Canuck fans happy?
Sorry, but that is just ridiculous.

You actually believe that if Luongo was on waivers, he'd pass through waivers and then the Canucks would put him on re-entry waivers where he'd get picked up? Either you are ridiculously underrating his value or don't understand the waiver rules.

If Luongo is put on waivers he'd be snatched up by the Jackets right away. He would not need to be put on re-entry waivers. Which means the Canucks aren't on the hook for any salary or cap hit - that only happens if a players passes through waivers - all 29 teams pass on him and then he's put on re-entry waivers, which the Canucks would never do.

Luongo has value and teams will give up something for him. If he's actually put on waivers, there will be teams, like Columbus, who would snatch him up for free.

The Canucks wouldn't be on the hook for any salary. To suggest that he would pass through waivers is ridiculous. To suggest that if by miracle he does pass through waivers, the Canucks would even risk putting him on re-entry waivers is just idiotic. The Canucks aren't going to risk eating half that cap hit for 10 yrs. But again, there's no chance they would ever be in that position.

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04-24-2012, 12:45 PM
  #118
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I'm not sure what else Schneider needs to do to convince you, but fortunately convincing you isn't a priority of his. As for value, your trade vales aren't too far off, I agree a top half of the round 1st + a good prospect is probably the value but with Lack, Cannata and Honzik in the system I can't see any interest in Tokarski what-so-ever
only listed Tokarski because i had no idea about the depth at G ...else i'd have said Namestnikov, or someone similar

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04-24-2012, 01:03 PM
  #119
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Luongo having no value talk is becoming ridiculous. First off his cap hit is only 8th highest in the league. Most people I have talked to, even the Luongo haters, have a hard time listing 8 better goalies based on current and past performance. The contract is overblown because the last 3 years he will either retire or can be dumped in minors. He is making an average of 1.2mil over those last 3 years. Even on the 4th last year he is only making 3.3mil. In proper context his deal is only really for another 6-7 years. Keeping this in mind asset value is based on supply and demand. This years UFA class does not have a clear 1# in it and there are enough teams who need a good goalie to make the next step. For example: TB, NJD, TOR, CBJ, EDM, CHI.

Obviously some of these teams will not have dealings with the Canucks, but in fact they will put more pressure on the goalie market by taking some of the other options off the market. The top 3 most likely to make a play for Luongo include: TB, TOR, NJD. If Luongo is traded he will bring back decent value, because GM's of these teams basically know that they will at least make the playoffs with Luongo. If any of these teams make the playoffs it helps secure the GM's future with the team as well.

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04-24-2012, 01:12 PM
  #120
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Luongo having no value talk is becoming ridiculous. First off his cap hit is only 8th highest in the league. Most people I have talked to, even the Luongo haters, have a hard time listing 8 better goalies based on current and past performance. The contract is overblown because the last 3 years he will either retire or can be dumped in minors. He is making an average of 1.2mil over those last 3 years. Even on the 4th last year he is only making 3.3mil. In proper context his deal is only really for another 6-7 years. Keeping this in mind asset value is based on supply and demand. This years UFA class does not have a clear 1# in it and there are enough teams who need a good goalie to make the next step. For example: TB, NJD, TOR, CBJ, EDM, CHI.

Obviously some of these teams will not have dealings with the Canucks, but in fact they will put more pressure on the goalie market by taking some of the other options off the market. The top 3 most likely to make a play for Luongo include: TB, TOR, NJD. If Luongo is traded he will bring back decent value, because GM's of these teams basically know that they will at least make the playoffs with Luongo. If any of these teams make the playoffs it helps secure the GM's future with the team as well.
Not here to argue, could you define what you feel is "decent value" from Toronto's end.

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04-24-2012, 02:41 PM
  #121
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Not here to argue, could you define what you feel is "decent value" from Toronto's end.
IMO it would be a 2nd + one of Colborne or Ashton

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04-24-2012, 03:32 PM
  #122
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IMO it would be a 2nd + one of Colborne or Ashton
See...now this i would do in a heart beat.

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04-24-2012, 03:36 PM
  #123
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See...now this i would do in a heart beat.
No kidding? Thats as bad any other Leafs-Canucks proposal Ive seen.

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04-24-2012, 03:38 PM
  #124
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No kidding? Thats as bad any other Leafs-Canucks proposal Ive seen.
I assume you mean bad for the Nucks? I didn't propose it, i just agreed.

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04-24-2012, 03:38 PM
  #125
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IMO it would be a 2nd + one of Colborne or Ashton
I think someone else would trade more than that. 2013 1st + Colborne/Ashton seems a lot more likely to get discussion started.

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