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Old
04-24-2012, 11:17 AM
  #101
Chris Hansen
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Originally Posted by madgoat33 View Post
if clowe is going to play wing with kane and toews we still don't have a second line center.

Fact remains that if the hawks don't get a real 2c, then kane and toews shouldn't be playing together because Kane is our best option at center.
Yeah, I said that with the assumption that the Hawks would acquire a #2C from somewhere. It's very likely an even more obvious need than is another defenseman.

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04-24-2012, 11:21 AM
  #102
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I know Shaw is undersized but I'd love to see him all year on a line with Kane and Toews. He goes in front of the net, he digs in the corners, he can finish around the net, he'll stick up for a guy. Seems like a great match to go with those guys.
Shaw is a nice depth option to put up there if someone gets injured.

But I can't help but remember what Pat and Eddie said at the end of the game last night (and I agreed with it 100%).

Pat: How many top-six forwards do the Chicago Blackhawks have?
Eddie: 4.

And that would remain true if you move up Shaw. Again, good option if someone is injured or you really have no one else, because Shaw will do all the things you said up there. But it's better to have him giving the Hawks some offense from the third line with Bolland. Shaw doesn't have the natural skills to be a dynamic top-6 player on a championship-aspiring team.

Plenty of cap space, plenty of assets. #1 LW, #2C, #3/4 shutdown defenseman, and probably a goalie too (coming from one of Crawford's biggest supporters). Quite the shopping list.

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04-24-2012, 11:32 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Shaw is a nice depth option to put up there if someone gets injured.

But I can't help but remember what Pat and Eddie said at the end of the game last night (and I agreed with it 100%).

Pat: How many top-six forwards do the Chicago Blackhawks have?
Eddie: 4.

And that would remain true if you move up Shaw. Again, good option if someone is injured or you really have no one else, because Shaw will do all the things you said up there. But it's better to have him giving the Hawks some offense from the third line with Bolland. Shaw doesn't have the natural skills to be a dynamic top-6 player on a championship-aspiring team.

Plenty of cap space, plenty of assets. #1 LW, #2C, #3/4 shutdown defenseman, and probably a goalie too (coming from one of Crawford's biggest supporters). Quite the shopping list.
It depends on what Shaw can do over a full season. Guys like Korpikowsi, Kostitsyn, Langdenbruner, Hornquist......most teams dont have 6 top 6 guys that are producing 65-70 points. If Shaw can give you 55 points on the first line (which I think he can) he is plenty worthy of being a top line winger.

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Old
04-24-2012, 11:34 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
It depends on what Shaw can do over a full season. Guys like Korpikowsi, Kostitsyn, Langdenbruner, Hornquist......most teams dont have 6 top 6 guys that are producing 65-70 points. If Shaw can give you 55 points on the first line (which I think he can) he is plenty worthy of being a top line winger.
He'd probably need PP time for that, so I wouldn't count on it. Our second PP unit will probably be kruger, bickell, some old bum they sign with bolland and leddy at the point.

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Old
04-24-2012, 12:12 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
It depends on what Shaw can do over a full season. Guys like Korpikowsi, Kostitsyn, Langdenbruner, Hornquist......most teams dont have 6 top 6 guys that are producing 65-70 points. If Shaw can give you 55 points on the first line (which I think he can) he is plenty worthy of being a top line winger.
If I'm not mistaken, Korpikoski did not play in Phoenix's top 6. In any occasion, wanting the Hawks to model their scoring off of that team is probably not a good idea their offense was absolutely helpless, and were fortunate enough to score on essentially ever half-decent chance they got. Isn't going to happen that way vs. Nashville, who is much better than the Hawks defensively and in net.

Kostitsyn (assuming you're referring to Andrei) is a top-6 forward who has fallen off a bit in recent season.

Langenbrunner is on the Blues' fourth line.

Hornqvist is a legitimate top-six forward. Not an elite one, but he has a knack for picking up the garbage in front of the net, is good on the boards, and has a pretty nice shot. Much better than Shaw.

I like Shaw a lot but I just don't think it's worth it to stick him on the top line instead of a better player. The Hawks' lack of depth was exposed in this series, with slugs like Brunette and Morrison playing in the top-6... and hey, when Shaw came back into the lineup, I thought he played well. But at the end of the night it was a big fat 0 on the board for the Hawks.

If you can acquire another legitimate top-6 forward (especially a center, but a LW is needed too), you do it. San Jose will apparently be selling Clowe and/or Pavelski. After this joke of a series by our guys, there is no excuse whatsoever if Stan and co. don't make a serious push for one or both of them.

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04-24-2012, 12:15 PM
  #106
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When did this happen? I hope your not talking about him carrying a weak usa team to overtime against a superstar team canada
Back to back brutal games vs Leafs (Must win games for Sabres) add in a bad game vs Pens before that

2 games he blew in final week of season (Sabres thanks to Ref won a game vs Leafs) that ended up being the difference between the Sabres making playoffs and not

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04-24-2012, 12:18 PM
  #107
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Yeah, Miller has had a reputation for coming up short in high-pressure games throughout his entire career.

His Olympics were fantastic - you can't take that away from him. But that seems to be an anomaly more than anything else.

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04-24-2012, 12:47 PM
  #108
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The Crosby goal in OT was weak as well at Olympics

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04-24-2012, 12:50 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
The Crosby goal in OT was weak as well at Olympics
True, but no one ever talks about this because he was so good in the rest of that game as well as the rest of that tournament.

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04-24-2012, 01:23 PM
  #110
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The Crosby goal in OT was weak as well at Olympics
In what way???? That goal was awesome!

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Old
04-24-2012, 01:26 PM
  #111
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If I'm not mistaken, Korpikoski did not play in Phoenix's top 6. In any occasion, wanting the Hawks to model their scoring off of that team is probably not a good idea their offense was absolutely helpless, and were fortunate enough to score on essentially ever half-decent chance they got. Isn't going to happen that way vs. Nashville, who is much better than the Hawks defensively and in net.

Kostitsyn (assuming you're referring to Andrei) is a top-6 forward who has fallen off a bit in recent season.

Langenbrunner is on the Blues' fourth line.

Hornqvist is a legitimate top-six forward. Not an elite one, but he has a knack for picking up the garbage in front of the net, is good on the boards, and has a pretty nice shot. Much better than Shaw.

I like Shaw a lot but I just don't think it's worth it to stick him on the top line instead of a better player. The Hawks' lack of depth was exposed in this series, with slugs like Brunette and Morrison playing in the top-6... and hey, when Shaw came back into the lineup, I thought he played well. But at the end of the night it was a big fat 0 on the board for the Hawks.

If you can acquire another legitimate top-6 forward (especially a center, but a LW is needed too), you do it. San Jose will apparently be selling Clowe and/or Pavelski. After this joke of a series by our guys, there is no excuse whatsoever if Stan and co. don't make a serious push for one or both of them.
Ok, how about a team that does score. Why can't Shaw put up numbers like Alex Burrows (career 50 pt scorer)? Or if you don't want to go that far, Higgins or Hansen? He certainly could put up Bertuzzi (40-45 points) or Hudler (45-50) like numbers if given the opportunity on the top line.

I still say if Shaw was a 1st or 2nd round pick putting up .63 ppg in 37 games this season people would be losing their mind about how great he's going to be going forward.

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Old
04-24-2012, 01:31 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
Clowe and Murray for Stalberg, Kruger and Olsen.

Clowe - Toews - Kane
Saad - Kane - Sharp
Unfortunately, cloning isn't an option to solve our top-six center issue.

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04-24-2012, 01:40 PM
  #113
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Unless the Hawks sign a 2C or trade for one (which would probably cost at least one or two current NHL roster players) Sharp should be the second line center. Kane 1) is the least reliable defensively 2) has a poorer faceoff percentage vs. Sharp and 3) showed in the PHX series he is much more effective on the rush as a winger than as a center. Sharp was drafted as a center and was a cup winning second line center. I think trying to force Kane into that position limits his offensive upside also.

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Old
04-24-2012, 01:53 PM
  #114
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Unfortunately, cloning isn't an option to solve our top-six center issue.
Too bad.

My lineup with cloning (like the Michael Keaton movie, not from the fetus)

Toews-Toews-Toews
Toews-Toews-Toews
Toews-Toews-Toews
Toews-Toews-Toews

Keith-Seabrook
Keith-Seabrook
Keith-Seabrook

Rinne
Rinne

***Blackhawks trade 5 1st round draft picks for the rights to clone Pekka Rinne and a PTBNL.

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04-24-2012, 01:57 PM
  #115
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Too bad.

My lineup with cloning (like the Michael Keaton movie, not from the fetus)

Toews-Toews-Toews
Toews-Toews-Toews
Toews-Toews-Toews
Toews-Toews-Toews

Keith-Seabrook
Keith-Seabrook
Keith-Seabrook

Rinne
Rinne

***Blackhawks trade 5 1st round draft picks for the rights to clone Pekka Rinne and a PTBNL.
Will there be any evil clones with mustaches?

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04-24-2012, 01:58 PM
  #116
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Jonathan quick instead of rinne

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Old
04-24-2012, 01:58 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
Ok, how about a team that does score. Why can't Shaw put up numbers like Alex Burrows (career 50 pt scorer)? Or if you don't want to go that far, Higgins or Hansen? He certainly could put up Bertuzzi (40-45 points) or Hudler (45-50) like numbers if given the opportunity on the top line.

I still say if Shaw was a 1st or 2nd round pick putting up .63 ppg in 37 games this season people would be losing their mind about how great he's going to be going forward.
Why can't he? I suppose, technically speaking, he could.

But Shaw is completely unproven. As much as I dislike Burrows, he is a legitimate top-6 forward. Pretty good bet for 30 goals a year, solid PKer, physical...
Sure, Shaw could turn into that. But a good half season doesn't warrant putting all your chips in on him or bust. We already saw this year what happens when a player expected to slot somewhere important doesn't perform to expectations (I'm looking at you, Brunette).
Detroit fans have been harping on and on for months about how they need another top-6 forward. Their most common criticism of their team is that they don't have enough top-sixers.

Hawks scored plenty of goals during the regular season. Honestly, it was all that kept them in the playoffs despite a horrific year from their team defense and goaltending. But when it came down to it in the playoffs, I want a better left winger than Andrew Shaw on my first line in crunch time when I need a goal.
Hawks were exposed because they couldn't score on a hot goalie. It was made even more difficult with only 3 top-6 forwards after the Torres hit.
Andrew Shaw will not cut it as this team's first line winger. MAYBE he turns into a Burrows, but chances are he won't. There's a guy on the current Hawks team who had a very good rookie season in 10-11, just as Shaw did this year... and now everyone has turned on him (for good reason, honestly, and I was one of his biggest supporters). You can't put all your faith in players developing perfectly.


Anyway, I should also point out that there is a nasty commonality among the teams you listed in that post. All of them (including the Hawks) out in the first round, and two of them only lasted 5 games.

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Old
04-24-2012, 02:02 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by InTOEWSweTrust View Post
Jonathan quick instead of rinne
I was 50-50 on it to be honest. Should have had one of each.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MurrayBannerman View Post
Will there be any evil clones with mustaches?
Yes, all goes by the rules of the Keaton movie and the clones had different personalities, so you get 12 different types of Toews. Some play nasty, some play finese, all play with the same heart and determination though.

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04-24-2012, 02:10 PM
  #119
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Yes, all goes by the rules of the Keaton movie and the clones had different personalities, so you get 12 different types of Toews. Some play nasty, some play finese, all play with the same heart and determination though.
Ooo! Mustache Toews - Original Toews - Mutton Chops Toews would be a good first line.

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04-24-2012, 02:25 PM
  #120
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Why can't he? I suppose, technically speaking, he could.

But Shaw is completely unproven. As much as I dislike Burrows, he is a legitimate top-6 forward. Pretty good bet for 30 goals a year, solid PKer, physical...
Sure, Shaw could turn into that. But a good half season doesn't warrant putting all your chips in on him or bust. We already saw this year what happens when a player expected to slot somewhere important doesn't perform to expectations (I'm looking at you, Brunette).
Detroit fans have been harping on and on for months about how they need another top-6 forward. Their most common criticism of their team is that they don't have enough top-sixers.

Hawks scored plenty of goals during the regular season. Honestly, it was all that kept them in the playoffs despite a horrific year from their team defense and goaltending. But when it came down to it in the playoffs, I want a better left winger than Andrew Shaw on my first line in crunch time when I need a goal.
Hawks were exposed because they couldn't score on a hot goalie. It was made even more difficult with only 3 top-6 forwards after the Torres hit.
Andrew Shaw will not cut it as this team's first line winger. MAYBE he turns into a Burrows, but chances are he won't. There's a guy on the current Hawks team who had a very good rookie season in 10-11, just as Shaw did this year... and now everyone has turned on him (for good reason, honestly, and I was one of his biggest supporters). You can't put all your faith in players developing perfectly.


Anyway, I should also point out that there is a nasty commonality among the teams you listed in that post. All of them (including the Hawks) out in the first round, and two of them only lasted 5 games.
Burrows has scored 30 goals all of 1 time in his career and he'll be 31 next year. He is a career .52 ppg player. He didn't score 12 goals or have 30 points in a season until he was 26. Shaw had 12 goals in 37 games as a 20 year old rookie. I understand the hesitation because you hope he's not another Bryan Bickell but Bickell put up 37 points in 78 games, Shaw put up 23 in 37. To me, Shaw looks more like another Kris Versteeg (53 points (.68 ppg) as a 22 year old rookie) than another Bryan Bickell (37 points - .47 ppg).

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Old
04-24-2012, 02:36 PM
  #121
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Burrows has scored 30 goals all of 1 time in his career and he'll be 31 next year. He is a career .52 ppg player. He didn't score 12 goals or have 30 points in a season until he was 26. Shaw had 12 goals in 37 games as a 20 year old rookie. I understand the hesitation because you hope he's not another Bryan Bickell but Bickell put up 37 points in 78 games, Shaw put up 23 in 37. To me, Shaw looks more like another Kris Versteeg (53 points (.68 ppg) as a 22 year old rookie) than another Bryan Bickell (37 points - .47 ppg).
Shaw doesn't have Versteeg's skill, and that's one thing that can't be developed.

C'mon Illini, you have to admit the Hawks need another top-6er. That leaves Shaw on the third line with (hypothetically) one of the best top-six forward groups in the league playing ahead of him. He's a good depth option, but he's completely unproven.

Burrows is faster, more experienced, has a much better shot, and has scored 26 or more goals in each of the past four seasons - 26, 28 twice, and 35. He is simply not comparable to a rookie who actually had to be sent down at one point this year because his game had fallen off a cliff.

Shaw might turn into that type of player, and that would be wonderful. But even if it does happen, he's not going to suddenly make a transition into an offensively gifted player out of the blue and be a great third option playing with Toews and Kane just next season. He played time in the top-6 in the playoffs (should add that it was only one game) solely because Hossa was out, which left Chicago with a pretty pathetic group of forwards.

There are many other options, and all of them are better ones.


Last edited by Chris Hansen: 04-24-2012 at 02:47 PM.
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04-24-2012, 02:42 PM
  #122
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Hey look, the guy we fired for no reason is now likely going to win GM of the year. What a surprise!
Backup goalie: Clemmensen
Four forwards: Weiss, Santorelli, Skille, Matthias
Five D: Garrison, Kulikov, Weaver, Ellerby, rookie Gudbranson

Then spend $25M to get more forwards, $11M to get Campbell and Jovanovski, and $1.5M to swap Vokoun for Theodore. Most teams, w/ that many holes, only one contract they wanna get rid of (Olesz), and lots of money that they're willing to spend, could do something similar.


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Sharp lead the team in hits this playoffs. He's been playing almost the entire 2nd half with a hurt wrist. Sharp has 77 goals in the last 2 years....he's pretty damn valuable to what the Hawks do. He's not untouchable but the list of guys you trade him for is pretty small.
67 goals for Sharp, not 77.

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04-24-2012, 02:52 PM
  #123
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Shaw doesn't have Versteeg's skill, and that's one thing that can't be developed.

C'mon Illini, you have to admit the Hawks need another top-6er. That leaves Shaw on the third line with (hypothetically) one of the best top-six forward groups in the league playing ahead of him. He's a good depth option, but he's completely unproven.

Burrows is faster, more experienced, and has scored 26 or more goals in each of the past four seasons - 26, 28 twice, and 35. He is simply not comparable to a rookie who actually had to be sent down at one point this year because his game had fallen off a cliff.

Shaw might turn into that type of player, and that would be wonderful. But even if it does happen, he's not going to suddenly make a transition into an offensively gifted player out of the blue and be a great third option playing with Toews and Kane just next season. He played time in the top-6 in the playoffs (should add that it was only one game) solely because Hossa was out, which left Chicago with a pretty pathetic group of forwards.

There are many options, and all of them are better ones.
I agree Shaw isn't Burrows yet, but that was an awfully impressive performance in 37 games as a 20 year old. Then again how does Burrows do when he's not on a line with the Sedin's? If he was on a checking line like Shaw was all year does he end up with 25+ goals? I doubt it. .63 ppg speaks for itself with Shaw, you don't accidentally do that over 37 games.

Again the offense wasn't the problem with this team.

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04-24-2012, 02:56 PM
  #124
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I agree Shaw isn't Burrows yet, but that was an awfully impressive performance in 37 games as a 20 year old. Then again how does Burrows do when he's not on a line with the Sedin's? If he was on a checking line like Shaw was all year does he end up with 25+ goals? I doubt it. .63 ppg speaks for itself with Shaw, you don't accidentally do that over 37 games.

Again the offense wasn't the problem with this team.
The offense was the problem when the going got tough and they played a defense-first team. Crawford was pretty bad too. But the lack of goals for can't really be denied.

Burrows has played very well and put up good numbers playing on their second line too. Kesler isn't much of a playmaker, so it wasn't a case of simply playing with another great passer.

Come on now. Championship teams do not have Andrew Shaws in their top-6.

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04-24-2012, 03:03 PM
  #125
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The offense was the problem when the going got tough and they played a defense-first team. Crawford was pretty bad too. But the lack of goals for can't really be denied.

Burrows has played very well and put up good numbers playing on their second line too. Kesler isn't much of a playmaker, so it wasn't a case of simply playing with another great passer.

Come on now. Championship teams do not have Andrew Shaws in their top-6.
Sometimes you just get beat by a really good goalie. Did the Canucks suddenly get bad at offense against the Kings? Heck that first round series against Nashville 2 years ago the Hawks scored 1, 2, 1, and 3 goals in the first 4 games against them. The Hawks put up a ton of shots and had a ton of chances against Phoenix. If Crawford puts up something better than a .893 save % the Hawks win the series and we aren't even discussing this now.

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