i appreciate his effort against the blues. wasnt a fan of his regular season exploits. i know this is an appreciation thread, but there isnt much difference between him and greiss, and id argue greiss has the better fundamentals.
as for his rebound control affecting our offense. we dont play a run and gun style in the first place. thats on the coaches. maybe they built that around niemis flaws, but either way its on him.
not only that, he has some poor rebounds in a game but unless you have numbers to back it up id say he kept quite a few out of dangerous areas and we still failed to break out properly. we had plenty of oppurtuny in the blues series and we just failed to execute. we were mentally slow on the puck on the half boards, minimal support from the center, and we lacked the speed to beat a good forecheck. none of that is on niemi.
It is a team sport, but the goalie is really the only single person (beyond some extraordinary play, good or bad, by skaters) that can win and lose games for a team. Even if a team is playing bad, a good goalie can keep the team in those games, and even steal some games. A goalie who played like Niemi this year, on the other hand, single-handedly lost some games.
The games that Niemi let in multiple soft goals, and there were far to many for a starting goaltender on a contending team, caused us to lose the division. Could we have overcome him if the whole team was playing great? Yes. Should the point of a team be play great to overcome your goalie's weaknesses? No. I think that's what we had to try to become many times this season.
lol, guess u didnt watch the PENS/FLYERS series this year.... both goalies were awful, but their teams bailed them out. so a bad goalie isn't the end-all, be-all.
1) It's not a steal when you're paying $3.8 mil to someone (Niemi) when you could probably get that same or close to same level of production from any one of a multitude of other players (Greiss, Stalock, Sexmith) for 1/7th of the cost.
2) What do you mean by "when teams get PP chances so often"
The 225 power play opportunities against the Sharks this year were not only the fewest opportunities allowed by any team in the league.......they were the fewest opportunities allowed in a single season by any team in more than a decade (and probably even much longer, but I didn't check back further than that). And it wasn't even close.
lol, guess u didnt watch the PENS/FLYERS series this year.... both goalies were awful, but their teams bailed them out. so a bad goalie isn't the end-all, be-all.
If those goalies played like that all year neither team would have made the playoffs. I love how you're using one of the strangest playoff series in NHL history to state your case, though. I'll stick to the vast majority of games, players, and situations, when a goalie's poor play can easily single-handedly lose games. Granted, a team always has the opportunity to overcome a goalie's mistakes, but often, they can't because hockey isn't a high scoring game. One goal is often the difference.
lol, guess u didnt watch the PENS/FLYERS series this year.... both goalies were awful, but their teams bailed them out. so a bad goalie isn't the end-all, be-all.
This only works when both goalies are bad.
When you are facing one of Quick, Rinne, Elliott or Smith ... this ain't gonna work.
When you are facing one of Quick, Rinne, Elliott or Smith ... this ain't gonna work.
on any given night, any of these guys can be just as bad as bryz and fluery were in their series.... and despite what some ppl think, bryz and fluery are no slouches
If those goalies played like that all year neither team would have made the playoffs. I love how you're using one of the strangest playoff series in NHL history to state your case, though. I'll stick to the vast majority of games, players, and situations, when a goalie's poor play can easily single-handedly lose games. Granted, a team always has the opportunity to overcome a goalie's mistakes, but often, they can't because hockey isn't a high scoring game. One goal is often the difference.
lol... bryz's season was pretty lack-luster for most of the year and they still made the playoffs so your argument is somewhat flawed. but that's ok, we can disagree until we're blue in the face.
on any given night, any of these guys can be just as bad as bryz and fluery were in their series....
"On any given night" = one game. The Pens-Flyers series was 6 games, each goalie sucked in 5 of those 6. None of those 4 goalies has sucked in any 5 out of 6 games this season. Bryz had 2 other stretches like that this season and Fleury had a 9 of 10 stretch earlier in the season.
lol... bryz's season was pretty lack-luster for most of the year and they still made the playoffs so your argument is somewhat flawed. but that's ok, we can disagree until we're blue in the face.
If Bryzgalov gave up 3.89 goals per game, as he did in the playoffs (which is what I was referring to), there's no chance Philly is the playoffs. He gave up 2.48 and the team didn't easily make the playoffs.
If Bryzgalov was our goalie, I'd want him to be traded too. I'm not just Anti-Niemi, I'm for shipping out any player who is paid a bunch and doesn't fit the Sharks such as Murray or Clowe. Those are my top 3 must trades (Handzus doesn't even count at this point)
"On any given night" = one game. The Pens-Flyers series was 6 games, each goalie sucked in 5 of those 6. None of those 4 goalies has sucked in any 5 out of 6 games this season. Bryz had 2 other stretches like that this season and Fleury had a 9 of 10 stretch earlier in the season.
true, but Quick gave up lots of goals to the sharks in last year's playoffs and Smith was on waivers because he played so poor. Not to mention, these playoffs aren't over yet so maybe these 4 guys you mentioned will falter at some point.
true, but Quick gave up lots of goals to the sharks in last year's playoffs and Smith was on waivers because he played so poor. Not to mention, these playoffs aren't over yet so maybe these 4 guys you mentioned will falter at some point.
Right, and they lost those series. If they falter this year and the opposing goalie doesn't, they will likely lose those series too. That's the point ...
If Bryzgalov gave up 3.89 goals per game, as he did in the playoffs (which is what I was referring to), there's no chance Philly is the playoffs. He gave up 2.48 and the team didn't easily make the playoffs.
If Bryzgalov was our goalie, I'd want him to be traded too. I'm not just Anti-Niemi, I'm for shipping out any player who is paid a bunch and doesn't fit the Sharks such as Murray or Clowe. Those are my top 3 must trades (Handzus doesn't even count at this point)
But bryz, nor nemo, played like crap all year. Don't blame our lack of playoff success based on where we finished in the regular season. Just because we finished as a 7 seed doesn't mean anything. Look at what LA did. All Im saying is, Niemi played well in the playoffs, and his streakiness during the regular season is parallel to the streakiness of the whole team during that time.
But in the playoffs it was the complete opposite. When the team played like crap, Niemi was good and kept us in it. Niemi isn't the problem. And as I've said before, it appears we will disagree about this endlessly.
Right, and they lost those series. If they falter this year and the opposing goalie doesn't, they will likely lose those series too. That's the point ...
well duh...
if one goalie sucks but his team somehow manages to win, then of course the other goalie must have sucked too...
Don't blame our lack of playoff success based on where we finished in the regular season.
Playing against Chicago would have meant a completely different series. We very well may still have lost, but we also wouldn't have entered the playoffs against the team that completely dominated us during the season. The Blues were a horrific matchup.
if one goalie sucks but his team somehow manages to win, then of course the other goalie must have sucked too...
Yes, duh. You tried to say a bad goalie performance isn't the end-all, but then you acknowledge here that it is very likely to end a season, barring a similarly bad performance by the opposing goalie. That's the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnarkAttack
Playing against Chicago would have meant a completely different series. We very well may still have lost, but we also wouldn't have entered the playoffs against the team that completely dominated us during the season. The Blues were a horrific matchup.
This. The goalie is half of the PDO equation, and it was very clear this year that Niemi let in many bad goals. A lot of unlucky ones too, but his mechanics led to a lot of goals this season, while the skaters by and large upheld their end, winning the chances and possession battle offensively, and limiting shots and shot quality defensively.
^^ snarkattack and juantimer, u guys are too much.... lol
niemi coudnt have been that bad considering the sharks were 8th in the league in goals against...
and that's my final point. i've brought enough to the table to dispute both of your flawed logic, but to no avail. and now im bored, so i'll let u guys continue your niemi bashing without my interference
u guys want to play the blame game? then blame the crappy PK... it was 29th in the league... that's why we gave up goals.
^^ snarkattack and juantimer, u guys are too much.... lol
niemi coudnt have been that bad considering the sharks were 8th in the league in goals against...
and that's my final point. i've brought enough to the table to dispute both of your flawed logic, but to no avail. and now im bored, so i'll let u guys continue your niemi bashing without my interference
u guys want to play the blame game? then blame the crappy PK... it was 29th in the league... that's why we gave up goals.
The Sharks were tied with 2 other teams at 8th so it's as good as 10th. It's easy enough to see how much of that was team defense vs goalie, and Niemi ranks about 15-16th. So the results were bolstered by the very heavy defensive team game we play, plus Greiss contributed with his superior numbers to Niemi. Problem with that is, when the team has to put in so much effort defensively, offense suffers.
The PK illustrates this as the importance of the goalie's individual performance rises; as the saying goes your goalie has to be your best PKer. It's no coincidence that, given the opportunity to exploit his weaknesses in the absence of good team defense, teams routinely solved Niemi.
The Sharks were tied with 2 other teams at 8th so it's as good as 10th. It's easy enough to see how much of that was team defense vs goalie, and Niemi ranks about 15-16th. So the results were bolstered by the very heavy defensive team game we play, plus Greiss contributed with his superior numbers to Niemi. Problem with that is, when the team has to put in so much effort defensively, offense suffers.
The PK illustrates this as the importance of the goalie's individual performance rises; as the saying goes your goalie has to be your best PKer. It's no coincidence that, given the opportunity to exploit his weaknesses in the absence of good team defense, teams routinely solved Niemi.
I'll just put these here.
Niemi: GP 68 (34-22-9) SV% .915% GAA 2.42 SO 6 MINUTES 3936
Greiss: GP 19 (9-7-1) SV .915% GAA 2.30 SO 0 MINUTES 1043
Greiss and his superior numbers Niemi played almost 4 times more than Greiss and usually against better opponents while Greiss got to play against CBJ etc. And I got nothing against Greiss, I think he's a great backup with an upside to start even more games.
You clearly just hate Nemo and try to blame him for everything without even looking into it. It's ok not to like a player but you sound like a broken record.
Niemi: GP 68 (34-22-9) SV% .915% GAA 2.42 SO 6 MINUTES 3936
Greiss: GP 19 (9-7-1) SV .915% GAA 2.30 SO 0 MINUTES 1043
Greiss and his superior numbers
I don't understand the point. Are those not superior numbers from Greiss? For comparison Niitty had inferior numbers last year and dragged the team results down. I don't hate Niemi, I wish he was our answer. But he doesn't appear to be, he's just not good enough for what this team wants to do and needs to do it.
I don't understand the point. Are those not superior numbers from Greiss? For comparison Niitty had inferior numbers last year and dragged the team results down. I don't hate Niemi, I wish he was our answer. But he doesn't appear to be, he's just not good enough for what this team wants to do and needs to do it.
You aren't too bright then if you cant see those numbers are almost identical. Sure Niemi isn't perfect and lets in soft goals now and then but there are much more issues than the goalie sucks and replacing him equals cup.
You aren't too bright then if you cant see those numbers are almost identical. Sure Niemi isn't perfect and lets in soft goals now and then but there are much more issues than the goalie sucks and replacing him equals cup.
2.30 GAA is NOT almost identical to 2.42 GAA. Those numbers are right in a highly competitive range. 2.30 is 7 slots higher than Niemi, #10 in the league. 2.42 is a bottom-half of the league GAA, 2.30 is top-third.
2.30 GAA is NOT almost identical to 2.42 GAA. Those numbers are right in a highly competitive range. 2.30 is 7 slots higher than Niemi, #10 in the league. 2.42 is a bottom-half of the league GAA, 2.30 is top-third.
I question who's not bright.
It is. And you should compare Greiss' numbers against goaltenders who played similiar amount of games. Niemi started 5th most games in the league, so .915% SV % and 2.42 GAA is decent and on par (or better) with many of the other starters. Here are some examples Niemi should be compared to:
Cam Ward (CAR) GP 68 GAA 2.74 SV .915%
Ondraj Pavelec (WPG) GP 68 GAA 2.91 SV .906%
MA Fleury (PIT) GP 67 GAA 2.36 SV .913% (very close to Nemo)
Mike Smith (PHX) GP 67 GAA 2.21 SV .930%
Carey Price (MTL) GP 65 GAA 2.43 SV .916% (very close to Nemo)
<60 GP
Luongo GAA 2.41 SV .919%
Brodeur GAA 2.41 SV .908%
etc... Just go and look from the NHL stats.
You just don't seem to realize the meaning of GP. If Niemi would have 19GP, his numbers would be alot better. If Greiss would have 60+ GP, his numbers would be worse. Also if we look at the fact that Greiss faced the bottom 10 teams in the league, he should have a lot better numbers than Niemi IF he would be the better goalie of the two.
You just don't seem to realize the meaning of GP. If Niemi would have 19GP, his numbers would be alot better. If Greiss would have 60+ GP, his numbers would be worse. Also if we look at the fact that Greiss faced the bottom 10 teams in the league, he should have a lot better numbers than Niemi IF he would be the better goalie of the two.
No one said he's the better or worse goalie of the two, only that his superior numbers helped bring down the team numbers. That is mathematically indisputable. Since we are tied with 2 other teams at 8th, the difference is 3 positions.
No one said he's the better or worse goalie of the two, only that his superior numbers helped bring down the team numbers. That is mathematically indisputable. Since we are tied with 2 other teams at 8th, the difference is 3 positions.
0.12 GAA, with Greiss' amount of GP, from 2.30 GAA to 2.42 GAA, that's about 10 goals (edit: less than 10 starts). Very significant indeed So with 10 starts, Greiss' could have the same GAA with Niemi. And while Greiss starts those 10 games, Niemi's GAA will most likely drop a bit.
So get your eyes off from those ranks and positions and focus on the actual numbers.
0.12 GAA, with Greiss' amount of GP, from 2.30 GAA to 2.42 GAA, that's about 10 goals (edit: less than 10 starts). Very significant indeed So with 10 starts, Greiss' could have the same GAA with Niemi. And while Greiss starts those 10 games, Niemi's GAA will most likely drop a bit.
So get your eyes off from those ranks and positions and focus on the actual numbers.
The poster I responded to was using rankings to try to make a point, so it is correct and necessary to use ranks to illustrate why the argument is invalid.
Niemi played almost 4 times more than Greiss and usually against better opponents while Greiss got to play against CBJ etc. And I got nothing against Greiss, I think he's a great backup with an upside to start even more games.
