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The Antti Niemi Appreciation Thread

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Old
04-28-2012, 06:29 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
The poster I responded to was using rankings to try to make a point, so it is correct and necessary to use ranks to illustrate why the argument is invalid.
Yeah you said it yourself there, "the 8th is as good as 10th" since teams are so close in that range. So with your logic 2.30 GAA should be as good as 2.42 right? Because it is very close, only a matter of few games because Greiss got so few GP. So the conclusion, Greiss' numbers aren't superior in any way to Niemi's and they have very little to do with our team GAA.

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04-28-2012, 07:39 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by FlamingShark View Post
Yeah you said it yourself there, "the 8th is as good as 10th" since teams are so close in that range. So with your logic 2.30 GAA should be as good as 2.42 right? Because it is very close, only a matter of few games because Greiss got so few GP. So the conclusion, Greiss' numbers aren't superior in any way to Niemi's and they have very little to do with our team GAA.
Not that it wasn't nonsense to begin with, but that is complete nonsense on top of the original nonsense. 8th to 10th were TIED, as in the same number. It's not just close, it's the same. Close but not the same drops you down several ranks which is the point. Sorry, there is no disputing the numbers. Greiss's numbers did lower the team average to get us tied with those other teams.

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04-29-2012, 12:08 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by FlamingShark View Post
I'll just put these here.

Niemi: GP 68 (34-22-9) SV% .915% GAA 2.42 SO 6 MINUTES 3936
Greiss: GP 19 (9-7-1) SV .915% GAA 2.30 SO 0 MINUTES 1043

Greiss and his superior numbers Niemi played almost 4 times more than Greiss and usually against better opponents while Greiss got to play against CBJ etc. And I got nothing against Greiss, I think he's a great backup with an upside to start even more games.

You clearly just hate Nemo and try to blame him for everything without even looking into it. It's ok not to like a player but you sound like a broken record.
You're forgetting 1 major number for each player. 3.8, 0.5875. That would be the number in millions each goalie gets. When your 3.8 million dollar goalie puts up roughly the same numbers as your backup paid at or around league minimum, you have a problem.

I'd love to get a better goalie, but if I had to choose one for next year I'd choose Greiss/Stalock over Niemi/Greiss due to the fact we'd have an additional 3 million to spend on other areas of the team. Niemi is around the lower end of league average, but he's being paid like one of the better goalies. Despite how mediocre his numbers seem, and how miserably he fails the eye test, people still are backing him up.

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04-29-2012, 03:33 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by SnarkAttack View Post
You're forgetting 1 major number for each player. 3.8, 0.5875. That would be the number in millions each goalie gets. When your 3.8 million dollar goalie puts up roughly the same numbers as your backup paid at or around league minimum, you have a problem.
Well that's not entirely true because the backup doesn't face the same level of competition, genreally. Also in limited minutes, there is more opportunity to hold a GAA that could be unrepresentative of the true talent level of the goalie.

Not saying that's necessarily the case with Griess, who did look better than Niemi at times this year. So it's not necessarily a problem, though it could be one. Sometimes it could be a strength (to have a backup on par with the starter).

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I'd love to get a better goalie, but if I had to choose one for next year I'd choose Greiss/Stalock over Niemi/Greiss due to the fact we'd have an additional 3 million to spend on other areas of the team. Niemi is around the lower end of league average, but he's being paid like one of the better goalies. Despite how mediocre his numbers seem, and how miserably he fails the eye test, people still are backing him up.
Actually to be fair he gets paid about in line with his performance, as far as his relative position on the chart, about middle of the pack. But middle-of-the-pack performance can be had for cheaper; I actually believe getting a more expensive goalie might be something the Sharks want to do.

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04-29-2012, 05:22 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
Actually to be fair he gets paid about in line with his performance, as far as his relative position on the chart, about middle of the pack. But middle-of-the-pack performance can be had for cheaper; I actually believe getting a more expensive goalie might be something the Sharks want to do.
The goalies that are the most similar in terms of contract are Halak, Khabibulin, Lehtonen, Roloson, Rinne, Anderson. Clearly 2 of those are a case of bad teams trying to sign veterans at any cost. Lehtonen, Rinne, and Halak are clearly better. The only similar player in terms of performance this past year was Anderson (Very close Sv%, worse team inflated GAA). It shouldn't be hard to get a goalie better than Niemi to come to a talented team for a fair price.

I'd welcome getting a more expensive goalie (within reason), but if that fails I'd look into Harding, Vokoun, or go with our young goalies rather than go into next season with Niemi. He is what he is, and I don't like it. Time for a change.

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04-29-2012, 09:52 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by SnarkAttack View Post
The goalies that are the most similar in terms of contract are Halak, Khabibulin, Lehtonen, Roloson, Rinne, Anderson. Clearly 2 of those are a case of bad teams trying to sign veterans at any cost. Lehtonen, Rinne, and Halak are clearly better. The only similar player in terms of performance this past year was Anderson (Very close Sv%, worse team inflated GAA). It shouldn't be hard to get a goalie better than Niemi to come to a talented team for a fair price.

I'd welcome getting a more expensive goalie (within reason), but if that fails I'd look into Harding, Vokoun, or go with our young goalies rather than go into next season with Niemi. He is what he is, and I don't like it. Time for a change.
Rinne's on the last year of his old contract, he's already resigned to a 7m/yr deal so he's really one of the top paid goalies in the league. I have to say I'm not convinced Lehtonen is better, Halak does appear to be though. Regardless, his salary is actually pretty reasonable, but IMO he's just not a good enough goalie for a team aspiring to win the Cup.

I like the idea of Harding or Vokoun. If we're going with a potentially middling guy, we need his skillset to be more traditional. Niemi has a kind of odd skillset that really affects how we play.

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04-29-2012, 10:12 PM
  #82
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Thanks for being middle-of-the-pack, Nemo.

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04-29-2012, 10:22 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
"On any given night" = one game. The Pens-Flyers series was 6 games, each goalie sucked in 5 of those 6. None of those 4 goalies has sucked in any 5 out of 6 games this season. Bryz had 2 other stretches like that this season and Fleury had a 9 of 10 stretch earlier in the season.
Oh man, the world is coming to an end!! Rinne gave up 9 goals in 2 games. I bet if he plays as bad through the rest of the series, you'd want to trade him too!!

See my friend, you are lost, and your logic is flawed. I just wanted to get that last shot in there because as i said, on any given night a goalie can play like crap (or a series of nights--regardless if it's 2 straight games or 5 out of 6).

We'll see if Rinne continues to struggle or if he pitches a couple of back to back shut outs. Maybe I've jumped the gun. Maybe he and the preds will play lights out. But the point stands. If niemi gave up 9 goals in 2 games, you'd be hating on the guy twice as hard.

There's no need to respond to this post, I'm exiting this thread once more. I just wanted to show you how illogical you sound at times.

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04-29-2012, 10:28 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by thrillermiller89 View Post
See my friend, you are lost, and your logic is flawed. I just wanted to get that last shot in there because as i said, on any given night a goalie can play like crap (or a series of nights--regardless if it's 2 straight games or 5 out of 6).
You claim my logic is flawed then you post something that doesn't prove it, and doesn't reflect on what I said in any negative way. If Rinne sucks 5 out of 6 games starting last game, and Smith does not, the Preds are going to be golfing.

As I said:

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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
If they falter this year and the opposing goalie doesn't, they will likely lose those series too. That's the point ...

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04-29-2012, 10:44 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
You claim my logic is flawed then you post something that doesn't prove it, and doesn't reflect on what I said in any negative way. If Rinne sucks 5 out of 6 games starting last game, and Smith does not, the Preds are going to be golfing.
Ya, and i said ...

"regardless if it's 2 straight games or 5 out of 6"

Because the point still stands. Goalies will go through rough stretches.

My point is that if it was Niemi that gave up 9 goals in 2 games like Rinne just did, you'd be hating on him twice as hard. But because it's Rinne, you sing a completely different tune.

You're not fooling anybody. you clearly just hate niemi. you'd be better off just admitting it.

And on that note, after days of proving your lack of logic and reasoning, I bid you adieu

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04-29-2012, 11:19 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by thrillermiller89 View Post
Ya, and i said ...

"regardless if it's 2 straight games or 5 out of 6"

Because the point still stands. Goalies will go through rough stretches.

My point is that if it was Niemi that gave up 9 goals in 2 games like Rinne just did, you'd be hating on him twice as hard. But because it's Rinne, you sing a completely different tune.

You're not fooling anybody. you clearly just hate niemi. you'd be better off just admitting it.

And on that note, after days of proving your lack of logic and reasoning, I bid you adieu
This is the attitude of many people on the board. Then when Nemo makes a mind-blowing, game-saving save, they are silent then later deny it happened.

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04-29-2012, 11:34 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by thrillermiller89 View Post
Ya, and i said ...

"regardless if it's 2 straight games or 5 out of 6"
2 games is far FAR different from 5 out of 6.

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Originally Posted by thrillermiller89 View Post
My point is that if it was Niemi that gave up 9 goals in 2 games like Rinne just did, you'd be hating on him twice as hard. But because it's Rinne, you sing a completely different tune.
Niemi did that twice last season vs the Kings, however we were able to win that series regardless -- because Quick put up poor numbers as well. Neither put up 5 poor performances out of the 6. Rinne will be in for some criticism if he keeps up this poor showing through this round, but because he's Rinne and has a tremendous track record, he gets the benefit of the doubt at this point. That's neither here nor there and does not constitute a point on your part.

On the other hand your implication that Niemi is in a similar class as Rinne because Rinne had a pair of bad games, is ridiculous.

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This is the attitude of many people on the board. Then when Nemo makes a mind-blowing, game-saving save, they are silent then later deny it happened.
Actually most people do notice when he makes a good save, he rarely makes mind-blowing ones though. He can and does get lucky more often than making a mid-blowing save, a dynamic that is inverted for the league's best. Niemi's problem, particularly this season, is that he will do that but then let in a softy -- or multiple softies -- later in the game thanks to his mechanics, and subsequently we will lose the game. So in the end his great save earlier in the game didn't end up game-saving. People have been watching all season to see when or if Niemi steals us games, because there is quite a bit of concern over whether he is good enough for us. And the honest truth is he rarely does. He stole game 1 for us from the Blues.


Last edited by Phu: 04-29-2012 at 11:40 PM.
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04-29-2012, 11:58 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
2 games is far FAR different from 5 out of 6.

Niemi did that twice last season vs the Kings, however we were able to win that series regardless -- because Quick put up poor numbers as well. Neither put up 5 poor performances out of the 6. Rinne will be in for some criticism if he keeps up this poor showing through this round, but because he's Rinne and has a tremendous track record, he gets the benefit of the doubt at this point. That's neither here nor there and does not constitute a point on your part.

On the other hand your implication that Niemi is in a similar class as Rinne because Rinne had a pair of bad games, is ridiculous.
.
i guess winning a cup isnt having a tremendous track record.... apparently all you care about are numbers and stats. goalies have rough stretches, get over it.

If nemo won us the cup, like he did for chicago, being as up and down as he was, we would all be singing his praises.

as far as im concerned, at this point, i'd rather be in chicago's position and have a cup with a goalie who was streaky, rather than being a team without a cup who's riding a vezina candidate who has yet to win one (like rinne and nabby).

i've exhausted all my energy with you. i know i keep saying that im leaving this thread, but your foolishness continues to suck me back in. kudos.

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04-30-2012, 12:00 AM
  #89
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This is the attitude of many people on the board. Then when Nemo makes a mind-blowing, game-saving save, they are silent then later deny it happened.
so true

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04-30-2012, 12:16 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by thrillermiller89 View Post
If nemo won us the cup, like he did for chicago, being as up and down as he was, we would all be singing his praises.
Chicago sang his praises so much that he's not on their team anymore. They know how important he was to their Cup run.

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04-30-2012, 10:24 AM
  #91
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Chicago sang his praises so much that he's not on their team anymore. They know how important he was to their Cup run.
LOL, you've just proven you know absolutely nothing.

Chicago wanted him back, but nemo wanted more money. They had a tough decision to either hold onto nemo or Hammer, and they chose Hammer because Bowman tabbed him as the next Lidstrom. They had $4 million to invest in either position and they chose to keep their defense intact. They tried hard to sign nemo, but they just didnt have the money.

That's why they let just about half of their roster go. Im sure you remember guys like ladd, eager, sopel, versteeg, and big buff. Buff was a monster in the playoffs. So since they got rid of him, that must mean that they thought he wasn't important, right? Please... they got rid of him because they couldnt keep him given their cap constraints. Just like nemo.

The salary cap prevented them from keeping nemo, not because the team thought he was crap or unimportant.

Do me a favor, and please stop responding to me. You're becoming a nuisance and your flawed arguments are highly irritating.

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04-30-2012, 01:49 PM
  #92
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LOL, you've just proven you know absolutely nothing.
Back at ya. Nemo was awarded just $2.75m in arbitration which the Hawks had space for when it was awarded. They chose not to go with him because he was the poster child for top-performing goalies not being that important to a Cup run. We now know that was a fluke, and the cap holocaust they faced afterward proves the team was stacked a mile high everywhere but in net, but the fact remains Niemi was not that important to their Cup run. His numbers back this up without any shadow of a doubt. A truly good, proven goalie is well worth $2.75m, but Niemi's performance in the Cup run left plenty of doubt; we all saw it too.

Ironically he only won the Cup because he had the fortune of facing a worse goalie situation in Philadelphia, the Leighton-Boucher tandem that put up sv% in the .700s more than once in the finals.

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04-30-2012, 03:51 PM
  #93
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My point is that if it was Niemi that gave up 9 goals in 2 games like Rinne just did, you'd be hating on him twice as hard.
Yeah, I would too. Rinne is a great goalie that rarely allows many goals, and wins games for his team. Without Rinne Nashville has a tough time making the playoffs. Niemi is a mediocre goalie who doesn't often win games for his team. Without Niemi the Sharks are probably about in the same place. Switch goalies and the Sharks are easily amongst the best teams in the NHL.

By winning games for his team I mean taking over in a game where his team is outplayed, and doesn't deserve to win. Not just a win, a specific type that only great goalies do often.

Niemi's track record is 1/3rd of a good year, and 2 good playoff series. He was a part of a stanley cup winning team, but by no means an integral part. He played great against the Sharks, but if you look at his numbers for the playoffs as a whole he ended up with a .910 sv% despite dominating the Sharks, meaning the rest of his playoff season was less than spectacular.

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04-30-2012, 04:34 PM
  #94
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^^ I love how both of you guys ignore the entire argument.... i've exhausted all my time and energy into this.

Juantimer pulls one line from my quote and disregards the rest of the argument. snarkattack pulls half a line out of my quote without addressing the rest of what i said in that line. you guys make me laugh.

good luck in your guys' bizarre quest to show hf boards that y'all are "smart" fans

see ya

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04-30-2012, 06:17 PM
  #95
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Actually I responded to your entire post. Everyone was gone and Hjalmmarsson was matched when Niemi got his arb award and they could have afforded him, but they didn't see him as especially good so they went with Turdco and Crawford.

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04-30-2012, 06:20 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
Actually I responded to your entire post. Everyone was gone and Hjalmmarsson was matched when Niemi got his arb award and they could have afforded him, but they didn't see him as especially good so they went with Turdco and Crawford.
They could not afford to keep Niemi and ice a full roster while having the capability of managing injuries for call-ups. I don't know where you get the idea that they could have.

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04-30-2012, 06:56 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by thrillermiller89 View Post
^^ I love how both of you guys ignore the entire argument.... i've exhausted all my time and energy into this.

Juantimer pulls one line from my quote and disregards the rest of the argument. snarkattack pulls half a line out of my quote without addressing the rest of what i said in that line. you guys make me laugh.

good luck in your guys' bizarre quest to show hf boards that y'all are "smart" fans

see ya
You'll be back.

Side note, this is the worse appreciation thread ever . You're supposed to say all fluffy stuff, not actual analysis.

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04-30-2012, 07:04 PM
  #98
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They could not afford to keep Niemi and ice a full roster while having the capability of managing injuries for call-ups. I don't know where you get the idea that they could have.
The reality of what actually happened (1 2 3). $2.75m is actually on the low side of what people expected and was a workable number, had the Hawks actually valued Niemi highly enough. But we know that he "proved" that you can win the cup with a <$1m goalie, so the Hawks could basically opt out of paying him and technically feel as good about their chances as with Niemi. Which is what they did.

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Side note, this is the worse appreciation thread ever . You're supposed to say all fluffy stuff, not actual analysis.
There's a reason for that ... Niemi really didn't give us much to appreciate this year. He was a low point in the season and creates huge questions about the direction of the franchise going forward. That's hard to appreciate no matter how you fluff it up.


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04-30-2012, 07:19 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by thrillermiller89 View Post
Ya, and i said ...

"regardless if it's 2 straight games or 5 out of 6"

Because the point still stands. Goalies will go through rough stretches.

My point is that if it was Niemi that gave up 9 goals in 2 games like Rinne just did, you'd be hating on him twice as hard. But because it's Rinne, you sing a completely different tune.

You're not fooling anybody. you clearly just hate niemi. you'd be better off just admitting it.

And on that note, after days of proving your lack of logic and reasoning, I bid you adieu
Quote:
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snarkattack pulls half a line out of my quote without addressing the rest of what i said in that line.
I just pull out the part(s) I'm responding to, especially when the rest of the post is evidence to a different argument, then an I'm smart, you're stupid statement.

I have nothing against Niemi. What I do not like is his affect on the the Sharks due to his play on ice. I love me some Joe Thornton, but if he lost as many games as Niemi did I'd be calling for a solution that way as well.

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04-30-2012, 07:39 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
The reality of what actually happened (1 2 3). $2.75m is actually on the low side of what people expected and was a workable number, had the Hawks actually valued Niemi highly enough. But we know that he "proved" that you can win the cup with a <$1m goalie, so the Hawks could basically opt out of paying him and technically feel as good about their chances as with Niemi. Which is what they did.
All you brought up was speculation of what might be available for them to do and all of it heavily involved icing a minimum roster that involved taking the risk of going over the cap if injuries occurred or going short-handed like the Flames did at one point. It also assumed that Kopecky was actually tradeable. It also assumed that they were willing to bury someone else as well when they had a backup plan ready to go.

Niemi was the easiest to lose because it wasn't going to cost them anything to let him go. They would have had to take a hit somewhere else to keep him by paying someone to take Kopecky or burying another million or so in salary when they already buried 5.6 mil or whatever with Huet.

The reality was that they could not afford to ice a roster that was capable of withstanding injuries by keeping Niemi nor could they afford to pay another pick like they had earlier to move another salary out to accommodate the salary. Even with a bargain basement tandem in net, they were right up against the cap that year.

At least I know where you got the idea but those speculative articles were incorrect about being able to afford him.

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