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04-24-2012, 04:11 AM
  #1
CobraAcesS
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Col & Van

Yeah it's another Kesler thread. What can I say hes popular..

So hate aside.. Hopefully this in an attempt at a descent trade proposal.

Ryan Kesler

for

Ryan O'Reilly + (IMO Barrie) The only other time I posted this in a thread the response was Elliott instead of Barrie. Which in the end I would probably agree to.

O'Reilly was pretty damn close to being a Selke candidate this year and is 21. So Vancouver gets a little younger and Colorado gets a little more experienced. O'Rielly's contract will probably be similar to Jordan Staal's @ about 4M.

Kesler would probably end up on the right side next to Stastny or Duchene. Unless next year Duchene does not seem to be regaining form which would result in a 1/2 of Stastny & Kesler with either Duchene moved to wing or traded for another winger. Duchene really could end up never realizing his potential under a coach who seems to appreciates grinders more but no one is willing to give up just yet. At least not until we are sure he needs a change of scenery. Kesler could actually create a lot of space for Duchene to work.

Kesler would give the Avs some calming playoff experience that we are losing with Hejduk and a mentor for Duchene and Landeskog. While O'Reilly would bring a fresh young leader and hard working two way center that never gives up on a play.

So good? bad? ugly? What would the plus really need to be?

(Btw : Set the Division thing aside I understand that, and it's not absolutely impossible for teams to trade within a division if it makes sense.)

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04-24-2012, 04:24 AM
  #2
Ivan13
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Avs aren't trading O'Reilly.

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04-24-2012, 04:30 AM
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CobraAcesS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
Avs aren't trading O'Reilly.
You do realize it's a hypothetical trade proposal right? Neither player is likely to be traded. There is not even rumors about either guy in the media.

This is HFboards where we like to pretend we are GMs and in my GM WORLD they are traded. So I decided to see if anyone else thought it was a good idea, but thank you for the insight..

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04-24-2012, 04:37 AM
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Ivan13
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This isn't a good proposal that's the thing about it. Why would the Avs trade a 21 yar old two way center who plays great defense and who was their best player this past season and on top of that add Barrie or Elliot, who are two young players that will be top 4 PMD's maybe as soon as next season?

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04-24-2012, 04:54 AM
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CobraAcesS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
This isn't a good proposal that's the thing about it. Why would the Avs trade a 21 yar old two way center who plays great defense and who was their best player this past season and on top of that add Barrie or Elliot, who are two young players that will be top 4 PMD's maybe as soon as next season?
We could stand to get a little bigger up front and we could use the playoff experience. No way your arguing O'Reilly is better than Kesler at this point which is why I add.

Kesler can play right wing or center. So we also get a little insurance in case Duchene struggles. If Duchene comes out strong our top 6 looks good. If he falters we are trading a center for a wing again which is a lot more sought after.

We also have Hishon, Sgrabossa & Malone as up coming centers which could be given time on the 3rd or 4th line if one of the three makes the team. While a trade like this allows us to strengthen and consolidate talent in the top 6.


Last edited by CobraAcesS: 04-24-2012 at 05:01 AM.
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04-24-2012, 05:07 AM
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Ivan13
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So we get marginally better right now to be weaker at the time the rest of our core (Duchene, Landeskog, EJ, Siemens, Elliot, Varlamov etc) reaches their prime? Makes sense.

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04-24-2012, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
So we get marginally better right now to be weaker at the time the rest of our core (Duchene, Landeskog, EJ, Siemens, Elliot, Varlamov etc) reaches their prime? Makes sense.
Uh.. Kesler is 27 we have almost 8 years until he would be expected to tail off in production and he is also strong enough defensively and big enough to be effective in a shutdown role later in his career.

You have no idea what this team will look like in 8 years and we need top six RWs more than we need O'Reilly or Duchene playing as 3rd line centers.

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04-24-2012, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
Uh.. Kesler is 27 we have almost 8 years until he would be expected to tail off in production and he is also strong enough defensively and big enough to be effective in a shutdown role later in his career.

You have no idea what this team will look like in 8 years and we need top six RWs more than we need O'Reilly or Duchene playing as 3rd line centers.
Hishon and Sgarbossa are probably going to be wingers in the NHL and we could draft another winger in the upcoming draft.

And considering O'Reilly or Duchene or Stastny playing on the 3rd line, I see that as a good if not great thing and if you've read Babcock's comments after the Wings got eliminated you would know how valuable scoring depth is in todays NHL.

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04-24-2012, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
Hishon and Sgarbossa are probably going to be wingers in the NHL and we could draft another winger in the upcoming draft.

And considering O'Reilly or Duchene or Stastny playing on the 3rd line, I see that as a good if not great thing and if you've read Babcock's comments after the Wings got eliminated you would know how valuable scoring depth is in todays NHL.
We could draft a winger at what 41st over all? (We have no 1st in case you forgot) Another two to three years IF the player even makes it to the NHL. That is also assuming a winger is the BPA at that point?

They are natural centers there is no guarantee either can convert to wing. There is also no guarantee either of them get a shot at all with us still having 3 top 6 centers.

Besides the fact that both of them are on the small side being under 5'11 & 190lbs.. Which makes it all that much more of a question as to if either one of them has success at the NHL level.

McGinn, Downie, McClemment, Olver & possibly Jones in the bottom 6 is plenty of scoring depth. We need real consistent offensive 1st or 2nd line guys. We have to many 2nd or 3rd line types not only coming in the system but on the roster as well. No prospect in our system projects to be a sure fire top line forward and the two best project as second line centers.

Stastny, Duchene, O'Reilly, Landeskog, & Mueller are not enough 1st/2nd line true top 6 talent. Especially considering 3 of them are centers that DO NOT play wing.


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04-24-2012, 05:40 AM
  #10
Ivan13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
We could draft a winger at what 41st over all? (We have no 1st in case you forgot) Another two to three years IF the player even makes it to the NHL. That is also assuming a winger is the BPA at that point?

They are natural centers there is no guarantee either can convert to wing. There is also no guarantee either of them get a shot at all with us still having 3 top 6 centers.

Besides the fact that both of them are on the small side being under 5'11 & 190lbs..
Oh, I wasn't aware thanks for clearing that up for me.

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Old
04-24-2012, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
We could draft a winger at what 41st over all? (We have no 1st in case you forgot) Another two to three years IF the player even makes it to the NHL. That is also assuming a winger is the BPA at that point?

They are natural centers there is no guarantee either can convert to wing. There is also no guarantee either of them get a shot at all with us still having 3 top 6 centers.

Besides the fact that both of them are on the small side being under 5'11 & 190lbs.. Which makes it all that much more of a question as to if either one of them has success at the NHL level.

McGinn, Downie, McClemment, Olver & possibly Jones in the bottom 6 is plenty of scoring depth. We need real consistent offensive 1st or 2nd line guys. We have to many 2nd or 3rd line types not only coming in the system but on the roster as well. No prospect in our system projects to be a sure fire top line forward and the two best project as second line centers.

Stastny, Duchene, O'Reilly, Landeskog, & Mueller are not enough 1st/2nd line true top 6 talent. Especially considering 3 of them are centers that DO NOT play wing.
I am not sure if you know this or not, but all of these players are still young and haven't reached their potential.

How many of the top guys playing today (other than Crosby/Ovi/Stamkos/Giroux) took a few years in the league to start racking up points?

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04-24-2012, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
Uh.. Kesler is 27 we have almost 8 years until he would be expected to tail off in production and he is also strong enough defensively and big enough to be effective in a shutdown role later in his career.

You have no idea what this team will look like in 8 years and we need top six RWs more than we need O'Reilly or Duchene playing as 3rd line centers.
Have you seen what happened to Heatley at age 30? 30 is the new 35 in the NHL for forwards. Especially physical ones like Kesler who aren't built like freaks of nature like Iginla.

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04-24-2012, 07:50 AM
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I'd argue that as far as value, O'Reilly has more than Kesler - younger, cheaper and potentially as good. It's not a given that Kesler will rebound to his career year or that O'Reilly won't surpass Kesler's production.

I can see why the Avalanche might want Kelser, but not for O'Reilly straight up and certainly not by adding to it. Again, you're trading for future production, not past production and shouldn't assume that what a player has done is what he will do in the future.

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04-24-2012, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
Uh.. Kesler is 27 we have almost 8 years until he would be expected to tail off in production and he is also strong enough defensively and big enough to be effective in a shutdown role later in his career.

You have no idea what this team will look like in 8 years and we need top six RWs more than we need O'Reilly or Duchene playing as 3rd line centers.
Trading O'Reilly for Kesler would keep Duchene as the 3rd line center. So why again does this make sense even within your trade world where you're attempting to get O'Reilly/Duchene out of the 3rd line center spot?

We have an offensive center, a 2-way center and a 2-way/defensive center in Duchene, Stastny and O'Reilly. Let's keep them.

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04-24-2012, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stories View Post
Have you seen what happened to Heatley at age 30? 30 is the new 35 in the NHL for forwards. Especially physical ones like Kesler who aren't built like freaks of nature like Iginla.
Uhh.. How about guys like Ryder, Zetterberg, Elias, Alfredsson, Doan, Kunitz, Malone, Knuble etc etc.

You can't make it so black and white, just because one player seems to have lost his game at 30 doesn't mean another player will. And in the case of Heatley, he is still an effective player. It's his insane contract that makes him less desirable.

Even if Kesler's even strength offense dries up, he'll be an excellent #3C that will provide you with strong intangibles (faceoffs, leadership, shut down capabilities). On top of that, he has an EXCELLENT wrist shot and one timer so he could still be used on the point on the PP or in front of the net.

The guy is under contract for 4 more seasons, that brings him to age 31. I don't expect to see a serious drop off before then, he can be re-signed after that for #3C money if he isn't playing up to snuff.

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04-24-2012, 10:00 AM
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Ummmm.... No. O'Reilly is going nowhere, and we certainly wouldn't be adding. This would make us slightly better now, but worse in the future. No way Avs do this.

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04-24-2012, 10:02 AM
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Why is Kesler on the block now? The only way Kesler gets traded is if it's for a legit no.1 dman.

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04-24-2012, 11:34 AM
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No way

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04-24-2012, 11:41 AM
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Kesler is overrated and always has been. He's was great in the playoffs last year, but besides that he hasn't done anything to change my mind. Avs say no.

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04-24-2012, 12:49 PM
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I'm not even sure this makes the Avs better in the short term. Yes, Kesler has more experience, but O'Reilly isn't exactly an unproven rookie. This year O'Reilly had more points, and was arguably better defensively.

I'd rather take a chance on a UFA like Brad Boyes returning to top 6 RW form than give the Canucks someone of RoR's caliber.

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04-24-2012, 01:03 PM
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As a Canuck fan, no way would I deal Kesler to the AVS. This is a recent Selke winner, a player that is very hard to play against and has had success shutting down top players. Why on Earth would the Canucks move a player like that to a division rival? He's not the type of player we want to face 6 times a year and have an impact within our division. Forget value, there is no way I'd do a trade with the Avs.

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04-24-2012, 01:49 PM
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Like Kesler with all that he brings, hate his attitude and on-ice antics with the diving, and I don't see him being the leader O'Reilly can be. Watching O'Reilly play the last 3 years, why would we give up 6 years of that type of play for Ryan Kesler? They are basically the same type of player, so why get older? Makes no sense

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04-24-2012, 02:14 PM
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I wouldn't even consider trading Kesler to any divisional rival. Preferably, I would like to see him go out East if the Canucks ever dealt him. However, if we're offering up Kesler to Colorado, I'm hoping that the Canucks try their hardest to get Duchene off the Avs.

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04-24-2012, 02:44 PM
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Interesting, but as a Canucks fan, I pass. Kesler has gone from untouchable and ridiculously overpriced and probably overrated on these boards to more reasonable to acquire. The problem lies in that he has been injured all season, and we won't trade him when his value is at a relatively low point.

Barrie, Elliot and O'Reilly will all be stellar NHLer's from the looks of things, but no combination of them will replace Kesler when he has bounced back from a franchise standpoint. They will all have unrealistic expectations put on them. Having said that, watching them play makes me appriciate why Av's fans are declining as well. Points for originality, but I don't think this trade is realistic given the needs of each team.

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04-24-2012, 03:38 PM
  #25
CobraAcesS
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I am not surprised there was a certain amount of hate for the idea but from what Ive seen posted recently. I thought it would fit what Vancouver would be looking for.

Ive always been a Kesler fan and players have off years. Hes one of the top American players in the game.

I'm really surprised lately as to how much "what have you done for me lately" comes into valuing players. It's pretty rare a player's skill just ups and walks away. Boyes & Gomez are examples of 1 or 2 year wonders but that does not seem to be the majority case for most players that put up solid years.

People are down on guys like Duchene and Kesler to much and I think it's a little unfair.

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