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Never winning the cup with this core...

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Old
04-24-2012, 08:23 PM
  #1
Tealblood
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Never winning the cup with this core...

I hate to be such a pessimist. But I just don't see it happening with this group of players ever.

Thornton had a decent series(mostly just in comparison to everyone else doing absolutely nothing). But the way he slows down the pace contradicts TMac's high tempo "Detroit" style.

Then you see him on the powerplay either along the boards or at the point, neither of which are beneficial because you end up with either Boyle having to step up- which gets rid of the only good shot from the point, or you end up with three players at the point just cycle passing to one another. Thornton can't really shoot from the point anyway, so why have him there. I feel like Mclellan's style originally was supposed to be about playmaking D-men passing it to people screening. Add on that joe is turning 33 this summer...

Marleau is still the enigma, he can either be the only guy scoring(see chicago series a few years ago), or doing absolutely nothing. Trade him and you have even less speed...

Then you go to the defense, Boyle is turning 36 this summer. I think he could be a lot better defensively than he is when you compare him to recent cup winning #1 dmen(guys like keith, lidstrom, chara). But an even bigger issue is still his partnerships. I'm sorry but Murray is not a 1st pair guy. Not only is he useless offensively, if he's not short-shifted you can see his skating turn incredibly slow. Vlasic isn't the solution because unlike Murray, he's a complete pansy. If you aren't going to hit you need to be a big threat to score, vlasic still isn't that either.


Clowe, pavs, couture, and jumbo are all at best mediocre skaters. Put all these guys in the top six and you've got a slow offense. We're seeing teams reaping the benefits of having FAST youthful core players. We just can't compete with teams like that as our core continues to age.

So like I said, it pains me to say this but we aren't winning the cup with this many slow players. We'll continue to make the playoffs and ya'll will believe but really...We need the old core to be replaced with new, young, fast guys before San Jose has the cup roll through town.



Last edited by Tealblood: 04-24-2012 at 08:29 PM.
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04-24-2012, 08:30 PM
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Gene Parmesan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tealblood View Post
I hate to be such a pessimist. But I just don't see it happening with this group of players ever.

Thornton had a decent series(mostly just in comparison to everyone else doing absolutely nothing). But the way he slows down the pace contradicts TMac's high tempo "Detroit" style.

Then you see him on the powerplay either along the boards or at the point, neither of which are beneficial because you end up with either Boyle having to step up- which gets rid of the only good shot from the point, or you end up with three players at the point just cycle passing to one another. Thornton can't really shoot from the point anyway, so why have him there. I feel like Mclellan's style originally was supposed to be about playmaking D-men passing it to people screening. Add on that joe is turning 33 this summer...

Then you go to the defense, Boyle is turning 36 this summer. I think he could be a lot better defensively than he is when you compare him to recent cup winning #1 dmen(guys like keith, lidstrom, chara). But an even bigger issue is still his partnerships. I'm sorry but Murray is not a 1st pair guy. Not only is he useless offensively, if he's not short-shifted you can see his skating turn incredibly slow. Vlasic isn't the solution because unlike Murray, he's a complete pansy. If you aren't going to hit you need to be a big threat to score, vlasic still isn't that either.


Clowe, pavs, couture, and jumbo are all at best mediocre skaters. Put all these guys in the top six and you've got a slow offense. We're seeing teams reaping the benefits of having FAST youthful core players. We just can't compete with teams like that as our core continues to age.

So like I said, it pains me to say this but we aren't winning the cup with this many slow players. We'll continue to make the playoffs and ya'll will believe but really...We need the old core to be replaced with new, young, fast guys before San Jose has the cup roll through town.
There is no clear cut receipe to win a cup. Boston won a cup a year after they had the biggest choke job in NHL history riding two "aging" vets in Thomas and Chara. The Blackhawks did it with a young and loaded lineup that was promptly dismantled. You can never tell...

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04-24-2012, 08:40 PM
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Tealblood
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Originally Posted by Gene Parmesan View Post
There is no clear cut receipe to win a cup. Boston won a cup a year after they had the biggest choke job in NHL history riding two "aging" vets in Thomas and Chara. The Blackhawks did it with a young and loaded lineup that was promptly dismantled. You can never tell...
Sure chara and thomas were aging vets, but they had tons of youth(and more importantly, speed) in guys like Krejci, Bergeron(healthy for once), Horton, seguin.

Then "prime" age guys(under 32) like Ryder were huge, and Marchand. Lucic, unlike Clowe, is not only tenacious but also became a 30 goal scorer that year. Plus their bottom 6 wasn't too shabby either with 2nd overall pick Seguin and beastly veterans Recchi and s.thornton. I'm not hating on Veterans, but these teams clearly also had strong youth movements. We're becoming bogged down with SLOW players, I'm not necessarily just talking about age.

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04-24-2012, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Tealblood View Post
Thornton had a decent series(mostly just in comparison to everyone else doing absolutely nothing). But the way he slows down the pace contradicts TMac's high tempo "Detroit" style.
This is not true, he was an absolute monster out there. He abused the best defensive team in the league to the tune of +28 scoring chances in only 5 games. He honestly is still possibly the best center in the league.

Also someone else mentioned this but:

Fast: Havlat, Marleau, Winnik, Moore, Wingels, Galiardi, Desjardins, Mitchell, Boyle, Burns, Vlasic, Braun, Demers, Ferriero (?)

Fast enough: Thornton, Couture, Pavelski, Winchester, Vandermeer (?)

Slow: Handzus, Murray, Clowe, White


Last edited by Phu: 04-24-2012 at 09:08 PM.
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04-24-2012, 09:26 PM
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I don't know why they wrecked this team last year.

The Burns deal was just dumb. He's a great player, but it ruined our team. Seto was a monster last year in the playoffs forget his so-so regular season he scored big goals, brought physical play and had speed. Havlat was a good deal. McGinn should not have been traded, Winnik by himself was not going to change the PK so it was pointless. Galiardi is still young and needs seasoning in our franchise. Dominic Moore was a rental but Wellwood brought more to the table. All the UFA's were busts.

I'd say Wilson and his Staff are the core we can't win with.

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04-24-2012, 09:28 PM
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-We can pick Wellwood up in UFA.
-I think we can win with our current core.
-Now I'm just being stupid, but can we trade for Ginners RFA rights?

As for Burns:
-Needs to hit the net more often. that shot is lethal, if only it were more accurate
-I want the Picklesnake pairing back.

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04-24-2012, 09:33 PM
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Tealblood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
This is not true, he was an absolute monster out there. He abused the best defensive team in the league to the tune of +28 scoring chances in only 5 games. He honestly is still possibly the best center in the league.

Also someone else mentioned this but:

Fast: Havlat, Marleau, Winnik, Moore, Wingels, Galiardi, Desjardins, Mitchell, Boyle, Burns, Vlasic, Braun, Demers, Ferriero (?)

Fast enough: Thornton, Couture, Pavelski, Winchester, Vandermeer (?)

Slow: Handzus, Murray, Clowe, White
I'm not blaming joe as much as I'm lumping him with those slow players, when combined the total team speed is still off. He may have scored TWO goals( sorry but **** "chances"), but take a fast and tenacious forward like say Andy mcdonald and put him on that line and you've got a much faster total offense. That's all I'm saying. Maybe it means we change our offensive style(coach), because Mclellan's style centers around the puckmoving dman not the puckmoving center. If we're joe thornton's offense build a style of offense that matches Joe thornton.

On to your list...
Of the "fast" players, havlat and marleau are the only forwards in that group that can be expected to score more than 20 goals in a year. If the rest were really that fast then why weren't we able to rely on our bottom six nearly at all? This is why I said our CORE needs speed, core being players who can also score.

Boyle is above average speed, yet still gets caught often and has to rush back at full speed. Burns is in the "fast enough" category, he's a big dude and he is not "fast."

"fast enough" is clearly a subjective category lol. I do not think any of those players are fast enough. Then again I actually want a fast team.

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04-24-2012, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Tealblood View Post
Then you see him on the powerplay either along the boards or at the point, neither of which are beneficial because you end up with either Boyle having to step up- which gets rid of the only good shot from the point, or you end up with three players at the point just cycle passing to one another. Thornton can't really shoot from the point anyway, so why have him there. I feel like Mclellan's style originally was supposed to be about playmaking D-men passing it to people screening. Add on that joe is turning 33 this summer...
I can see where you're coming from. Personally, I wish TM would put Jumbo in front of the net more in pp situations. Just a thought.

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04-24-2012, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sjshark91 View Post
I don't know why they wrecked this team last year.

The Burns deal was just dumb. He's a great player, but it ruined our team. Seto was a monster last year in the playoffs forget his so-so regular season he scored big goals, brought physical play and had speed. Havlat was a good deal. McGinn should not have been traded, Winnik by himself was not going to change the PK so it was pointless. Galiardi is still young and needs seasoning in our franchise. Dominic Moore was a rental but Wellwood brought more to the table. All the UFA's were busts.

I'd say Wilson and his Staff are the core we can't win with.
I agree it's also a big possibility that it's Wilson, after some really stupid deals over the years that have, most importantly to me, drained the youth/prospect cupboard. I can admire the balls it must take to try to improve the team every year through bold trades, but it's a results league and some of the dumbest moves over the years have been at the deadline.(Brian campbell anyone?)

I would have liked the burns deal a whole lot more if it were INSTEAD of the boyle trade back in the day. Think about it, they both bring similar skills to the table. Puck-moving right handed dman. The difference is Burns is a bit slower, but younger, harder shot, and more physical. Similar defensively, in that they both need work but again Burns is younger so he has more room to improve.

In context of what happened the previous playoff year, we obviously needed help defensively. I don't know that Burns was the right solution.

We need a left handed defenseman who can be a real threat to pair with Burns.

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04-24-2012, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tealblood View Post
I'm not blaming joe as much as I'm lumping him with those slow players, when combined the total team speed is still off. He may have scored TWO goals( sorry but **** "chances"), but take a fast and tenacious forward like say Andy mcdonald and put him on that line and you've got a much faster total offense. That's all I'm saying. Maybe it means we change our offensive style(coach), because Mclellan's style centers around the puckmoving dman not the puckmoving center. If we're joe thornton's offense build a style of offense that matches Joe thornton.

On to your list...
Of the "fast" players, havlat and marleau are the only forwards in that group that can be expected to score more than 20 goals in a year. If the rest were really that fast then why weren't we able to rely on our bottom six nearly at all? This is why I said our CORE needs speed, core being players who can also score.

Boyle is above average speed, yet still gets caught often and has to rush back at full speed. Burns is in the "fast enough" category, he's a big dude and he is not "fast."

"fast enough" is clearly a subjective category lol. I do not think any of those players are fast enough. Then again I actually want a fast team.
Burns is 6'5 230. There aren't many players let alone dmen that can skate like he can being that big. They need top 6 speed but they also need to play faster and that needs to change. Another roster overhaul won't fix anything

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04-24-2012, 09:52 PM
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I can see where you're coming from. Personally, I wish TM would put Jumbo in front of the net more in pp situations. Just a thought.
He tried that when he first got here, Thornton will do it and then he'll see two guys battling for the puck along the boards and instinctively go try to fight for it so he can pass the puck some more lol. He moves around too much to just stand in front.

It also doesn't help that marleau isn't that strong along the boards, that line makes thornton do a lot of the dirty work.

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04-24-2012, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Gene Parmesan View Post
Burns is 6'5 230. There aren't many players let alone dmen that can skate like he can being that big. They need top 6 speed but they also need to play faster and that needs to change. Another roster overhaul won't fix anything
Thornton skates well for a big guy too, doesn't make him fast. I put Burns in the "fast enough" category for a dman. He is fast enough. I just wouldn't put him in the same category with Marleau or Havlat...lol.

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04-24-2012, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Inub0i View Post
-We can pick Wellwood up in UFA.
-I think we can win with our current core.
-Now I'm just being stupid, but can we trade for Ginners RFA rights?

As for Burns:
-Needs to hit the net more often. that shot is lethal, if only it were more accurate
-I want the Picklesnake pairing back.
I think Burn's shot is accurate, he just doesn't move laterally well enough to find the right lanes all the time. He gets blocked a lot. He did play pretty well with Vlasic.

We won't trade for ginner because that would be DW admitting he made a mistake, GMs don't do that often.

I didn't think Wellwood played that great against vancouver, but that may have just been because their 3rd line was so beastly and ours was so small. I do still like him more than super slow handzus.

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04-24-2012, 10:20 PM
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See I truly don't know what's wrong here. We've had some of the most talented teams in the NHL and still can never get to the top?

It seems that this team, organization, and fan base is doing the same things over and over again but expecting a different result (The Cup) which is insanity.

Replace the GM, establish a direction for the sharks in the coming years and mold the core accordingly with a coach and the correct players to work the system.

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04-24-2012, 10:30 PM
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I think we can win the Cup with the core of:

Marleau, Thornton, Couture, Pavelski, Havlat, Boyle, Burns

as long as we have component MOBILE depth. As long as 19/39/8 are the only slow players on their respective lines, it's all good.

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04-24-2012, 10:48 PM
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I really wanted to win with this group. I really did. But it's time for a change ... maybe some are just too comfortable here.

We need a Laviolette that will rip your head off. Players need to be held accountable ... Hell, even Hunter benched Ovechkin for lack of production/effort.

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04-24-2012, 10:53 PM
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Wait, what? Burns is super fast!

The only actual slow player in the top 6 is Clowe and he's not Handzus slow.

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04-24-2012, 10:54 PM
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We need a lefty offensive defenseman who can play D. We need some snipers on the wing with a RH shot. PK and PP specialists. I think 3 years is good for a coach to try and win a cup Tmac had his chance if we give him one more year that would be it in my book but if a top 5 coach is available we should pounce. DW needs to upgrade our youth in the top 6 because teams are faster and stronger nowadays. Creative players would help a lot with our team especially if the can control the puck on there stick. Dump and chase is easy to defend. We need acutal SKILL players to move the puck with talent to do so. I think 1 more year with the whole team and some additions and subtractions and we could be a threat in the playoffs someday. ....................................

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04-24-2012, 10:55 PM
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Only a sith deals in absolutes

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04-24-2012, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
I think we can win the Cup with the core of:

Marleau, Thornton, Couture, Pavelski, Havlat, Boyle, Burns

as long as we have component MOBILE depth. As long as 19/39/8 are the only slow players on their respective lines, it's all good.
Basically this.

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04-24-2012, 11:10 PM
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Basically this.
Who is going to be top six forward X? Has to be someone strong on the stick if Clowe is to be replaced also strong along the boards is highly preferable.

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04-24-2012, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
I think we can win the Cup with the core of:

Marleau, Thornton, Couture, Pavelski, Havlat, Boyle, Burns

as long as we have component MOBILE depth. As long as 19/39/8 are the only slow players on their respective lines, it's all good.
Let's do some simple mathematics dump and chase requires 2 or more forwards with speed. So one can dump another chases defense locks down one so the other is not faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar behind thus creating a slight opportunity to score. We would have to split up the lines with those players and spread them through 4 lines. 2 speedy guys per line and 1 slow guy to balance it out. In order for the Tmac system to work we must have the EXACT player specifications met. DW do you know what EXACT means.

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04-24-2012, 11:14 PM
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Clowe, Pavs and Couture are below average, not fast enough. JT slows play but has a good, long stride to get to average speed. JT is NOT first step fast. Couture is quick.

Burns is flat out fast straightahead. Boyle is not fast but is nifty. Braun is well above average and probably the Sharks second fastest dman.

The issue is fast players in the top 6 and playing fast. Both Boyle and JT repeatedly slow the play. It's like a baseball pitcher with an above average fastball who doesn't throw enough changeups or curves. He gets hit and the team suffers. And some of the bottom tier guys like White, Handzus and Murray all slow play to make the secure plays, more than most others in the league.

Simple eyeball speed test. Can a player go wide on a dman by a full stride after the dman has turned. If yes, the player is fast. Eyeball quick test is a spin move that gains a half stride immediately (see Boyle and Couture). The listing above is the result of watching and comparing.

Detroit compensates for their lack of speed by holding the puck. Part is Dats and Z and part is low roster turnover. Their players are extremely familiar with each other, even on the lower lines.

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04-24-2012, 11:15 PM
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Who is going to be top six forward X? Has to be someone strong on the stick if Clowe is to be replaced also strong along the boards is highly preferable.
Obviously he's not at that level right now, but Wingels could turn into that player. As for now, I'm sure DW has lots of suitors for Clowe. And considering how he managed to turn someone who wasn't a good fit for this team (Heater) into someone who is (Havlat), I think he'll do fine.

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04-24-2012, 11:18 PM
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Burns is in the "fast enough" category, he's a big dude and he is not "fast."
What? I'd argue that Burns is the fastest skater on the team.

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