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if i'm a fan of the Habs, it's posts like these that make me glad fans aren't GM's.
as an oiler fan i thought it was a rational statement..scoring wingers are a luxury.
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Originally Posted by Analyzer
Tim Thomas is great goaltending. Antti Niemi is affordable, but Chicago was stacked at forward and d. Fleury, was great during the run. Osgood is affordable, but with the Detroit team, great at both forward and d. Giguere played great and was considered a top 10 goaltender for a few years. Cam Ward still is. Khabibulin was great, as well at that time.
Seems the majority of teams who win have goalies who were in their time period as being considered great. The two who weren't were on teams stacked at forward and d. They actually had some remarkable dmen in their lineup that neither Edmonton, nor the habs seem to possess at this time.
Maybe if the oilers want to win 9-8, but even then I don't know if they could..
That's what Leaf fans said about Reimer.
Either way, Oilers seem to think goaltending isn't important. That's fine.
So first we can agree that theyre have been winners with average goaltending.
what you are failing to understand is that acquiring/investing in a goaltender who HAS BEEN good/great does not mean you have quality goaltending GOING FORWARD.
Examples: Louongo, Bryzgalov, MAF. teams use significant cap space, and sometimes assets to acquire these players, and they may not perform after being locked up.
Lunqvist is another example of a high end goalie, who hasn't delivered in the post season.
Rinne looks like a stud right now, but how long until that contract is regrettable? Expecting these guys to have the longevity of Roy/Brodeur is awfully hopeful. I imagine Quick and Price will soon be in this catagory.
What you need is hot goaltending, Smith and Elliot were practically left for dead last off season. Now they are huge contributing pieces, does it mean you want to pony up to acquire them now? No.
Therefore, its best to go with affordable goaltending on short term contracts, and spend your money in front of them.
don't blame you at all, and i'd never suggest the Habs trade him for Yakupov. good #1 goalies are hard to come by and he'd be too steep a price to pay for the #1 overall pick.
as an oiler fan i thought it was a rational statement..scoring wingers are a luxury.
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how so? please explain.
Habs have scoring wingers with MaxPac, Cole (both 30 goal guys), Gionta (former 30 goal guy who was injured) and Bourque who hopefully will regain his form. Another scoring winger is a luxury, not a necessity.
What the Habs need is size down the middle. Yakupov doesn't address that.
I like Luongo, and if we did land him for less than he is worth (which is what the OP is!), I would be ok with trading Price for a significant asset in return. The OP is NOT significant. We already have the #3 overall pick, and I wouldn't touch Yakupov with a 10 foot pole. He is small. Montreal does not need any more "small" forwards. He is Russian, and that could lead to a Radulov type of situation if he is unhappy with anything in the Organization's way of treating him. However, and most importantly, he has already suffered 2 concussions playing against young men still in their teens. He would be destroyed by the Bruins and Flyers. Montreal can not invest in another smallish player who may well get knocked out on the first big hit he receives from Lucic et al. Yes, any player can get hurt or injured, but Yakupov already has 2 concussions. That worries me far more than all of the other factors combined.
I do not even need to dignify the asinine crap being said about Price.
So, we will happily let Edmonton keep Yakupov and we will suffer through a goalie who is barely an upgrade over the amazing Dubnyk.
Habs have scoring wingers with MaxPac, Cole (both 30 goal guys), Gionta (former 30 goal guy who was injured) and Bourque who hopefully will regain his form. Another scoring winger is a luxury, not a necessity.
What the Habs need is size down the middle. Yakupov doesn't address that.
fair enough i guess, just wanted a little clarification....the Oilers are in the same boat with Eberle (34), Hall (27) and RNH, but you can't just pass on the best player in the draft because of "need". the Oilers need a big center and a #1 d-man, but would never pass on Yakupov, even though he doesn't address a need.
I like Luongo, and if we did land him for less than he is worth (which is what the OP is!), I would be ok with trading Price for a significant asset in return. The OP is NOT significant. We already have the #3 overall pick, and I wouldn't touch Yakupov with a 10 foot pole. He is small. Montreal does not need any more "small" forwards. He is Russian, and that could lead to a Radulov type of situation if he is unhappy with anything in the Organization's way of treating him. However, and most importantly, he has already suffered 2 concussions playing against young men still in their teens. He would be destroyed by the Bruins and Flyers. Montreal can not invest in another smallish player who may well get knocked out on the first big hit he receives from Lucic et al. Yes, any player can get hurt or injured, but Yakupov already has 2 concussions. That worries me far more than all of the other factors combined.
I do not even need to dignify the asinine crap being said about Price.
So, we will happily let Edmonton keep Yakupov and we will suffer through a goalie who is barely an upgrade over the amazing Dubnyk.
Yakupov would easily be your most talented forward...now who's being asinine?
Your argument that Dubnyk is comparable to Price...
I never made that argument, you are changing my words. Find the quote where i said they are comparable talents. I said their numbers are comparable, because they are. This isn't a matter of opinion in comparing their stats, it's a reality. Of course i compared the stats of the goaltender we have to the one we are being proposed to acquire. I said all along that Price is better. Do you think Colorado trades Landeskog for Price despite having Varlamov, obviously not. dubnyk is a solid young starter, his presence has to be considered.
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Also for the double standard you keep denying you use, let me explain.
A) You say Price is unproven as an elite goalie.
B) You say Yak is a potential franchise player
C) You use this to conclude Yak > Price
D) You require Price to prove his skill, Yak is judged by hype
E) You read this, deny it, argue an irrelevant detail
Price is not equal to Yakupov, only montreal fans are saying so. Price is not a franchise goalie, and it is reasonable to expect Yakupov to be a franchise winger. Look at history, jeez... Price is not anywhere near the same bet to be elite at his position as Yakupov is, i posted a ton of goalies who have been better than him. Yakupov has more value than Price, Yakupov-Dubnyk has way more value than Price.
This kind of stuff makes Oiler fans look really bad. Price is MUCH MUCH better than Dubnyk, he's one of the true elite young goalies in the game. Look beyond the stats and watch them play, there is a clear difference between Price and Dubnyk.
With that being said, there is no way that i would move the #1 pick plus a young player who still has a lot of potential in Paajarvi for Price. He looks great now but goalies are too fickle to take that big of a risk on.
This kind of stuff makes HF look really bad, i never said they were in the same class. I posted A FACT, it's not an opinion. I only compared their numbers, it's a natural thing to do. I never said they were of comparable worth. Read what i wrote, don't assume superficially similar arguments apply.
I never made that argument, you are changing my words. Find the quote where i said they are comparable talents. I said their numbers are comparable, because they are. This isn't a matter of opinion in comparing their stats, it's a reality. Of course i compared the stats of the goaltender we have to the one we are being proposed to acquire. I said all along that Price is better. Do you think Colorado trades Landeskog for Price despite having Varlamov, obviously not. dubnyk is a solid young starter, his presence has to be considered.
Price is not equal to Yakupov, only montreal fans are saying so. Price is not a franchise goalie, and it is reasonable to expect Yakupov to be a franchise winger. Look at history, jeez... Price is not anywhere near the same bet to be elite at his position as Yakupov is, i posted a ton of goalies who have been better than him. Yakupov has more value than Price, Yakupov-Dubnyk has way more value than Price.
You posted a ton of goalies who you think are better than Price.
5% of this board would probably agree with all of those 9 goalies you chose better than Price. 95 % would laugh at you with good reason.
The only place that Luongo is going is either Florida or Tampa Bay. He wouldnt last in any other Canadian city, or large market like Chicago. I've seen pre-schoolers with thicker skin.
I dont care for the Dubnyk vs. Price argument but I don't think that he's worth the 1st overall pick. Paajarvi+2nd easily > Tinordi+3rd
Hehe, this is what I was expecting and it would indeed make sense for Edmonton IMO. Something like Omark, 2nd and 3rd for Loungo would probably do it and the Oilers would be set in goals for a while.
A superstar goalie like Luongo would only get the Canucks Omark and a second and third pick? Are you kidding?
don't blame you at all, and i'd never suggest the Habs trade him for Yakupov. good #1 goalies are hard to come by and he'd be too steep a price to pay for the #1 overall pick.
It's not that the value isn't good, just seems pointless for the habs. Carey is the reason they win games. I don't think they'd win any more with ****** goaltending and a potential star.
Great goaltending just took the Hawks,The Nucks out of the playoffs.
Affordable goaltending is usually only good in the playoffs if you have the offense to pot a few but it doesn't always work ..MAF.
Going into the playoffs i would rather go with a great goalie over any single one player.
Actually the Pens, Wings and Hawks all didn't have great goaltending.
They were offensive powerhouses that played a puck possession game to keep the puck away from their opponents and played a defensive system that kept shots to the outside so they only really needed good goaltending. I would think that the Oilers are being built to be an offensive, puck possession team so i personally don't think that they need an elite goaltender to eventually contend.
This kind of stuff makes HF look really bad, i never said they were in the same class. I posted A FACT, it's not an opinion. I only compared their numbers, it's a natural thing to do. I never said they were of comparable worth. Read what i wrote, don't assume superficially similar arguments apply.
I did read your posts and you seemed to imply based on numbers that Price is only marginally better than Dubnyk. I happen to think that Dubnyk is underrated around here but Price is one of the elite goalies in the game, he completely carries that team on most nights and has had playoff success while Dubnyk hasn't even proven enough to be a clear #1 on a bad team quite yet. Price is far better than Dubnyk right now. It's just one of those things that goes beyond just looking at the numbers IMO.
I did read your posts and you seemed to imply based on numbers that Price is only marginally better than Dubnyk. I happen to think that Dubnyk is underrated around here but Price is one of the elite goalies in the game, he completely carries that team on most nights and has had playoff success while Dubnyk hasn't even proven enough to be a clear #1 on a bad team quite yet. Price is far better than Dubnyk right now. It's just one of those things that goes beyond just looking at the numbers IMO.
On top of this great argument, if your fellow fan is to compare numbers I think it would be a bit more honest to mention that Price played 72 and 65 games these past two seasons (missing the end of this year because of a concussion) while Dubnyk played 35 and 47 games. This is a huge aspect to consider when contrasting stats like save % in my opinion. Not many goalies can play as many games as Price and to think he's still only 24 is not a small accomplishment.
While some may not agree he's there yet, he has "elite" written all over him and while I do believe the overall goalie market may not be at an all-time high, I still think young, potentially elite, goalies who can play 70+ games a year are worth a whole lot, because they are a very rare commodity, much rarer than good-to-great guys like Halak and Varlamov.
On top of this great argument, if your fellow fan is to compare numbers I think it would be a bit more honest to mention that Price played 72 and 65 games these past two seasons (missing the end of this year because of a concussion) while Dubnyk played 35 and 47 games. This is a huge aspect to consider when contrasting stats like save % in my opinion. Not many goalies can play as many games as Price and to think he's still only 24 is not a small accomplishment.
While some may not agree he's there yet, he has "elite" written all over him and while I do believe the overall goalie market may not be at an all-time high, I still think young, potentially elite, goalies who can play 70+ games a year are worth a whole lot, because they are a very rare commodity, much rarer than good-to-great guys like Halak and Varlamov.
Price is a great goalie, but that said, Edmonton doesn't really need a goaltender.
Will Dubnyk command a huge cap hit? Will Edmonton out-score other teams? Edmonton clearly developed Dubnyk, and while he appears to be a middle of the pack goalie - goaltending doesn't appear to be the issue. Why bring on a "star" goalie, with a "star" goalie cap hit, when you're assembling a team with enough firepower that it's not needed?
Edmonton has Dubnyk. Why upgrade at goal, and consume the cap hit, when they can just spend the cap dollars on high end draft picks? If Hopkins, Hall, Eberle, Yakupov, etc. turn out, and they can find a defense, why spend a premium on a goaltender?
Take out Montreal's 3rd rounder and change it to Montreal's 1st rounder and you've got a deal.
We don't need a goalie that bad.
Honestly, I don't think Montreal even slightly considers that original deal. Habs need Price and Tinordi so much more than the first overall pick and MPS. The fact they already own the 3rd overall pick certainly plays a factor, but it's also because they instantly become a much worse team without Price and Tinordi projects to fill one of this team's direst needs. Whether the 1st overall is <, = or > to Price is up for debate – some good and bad arguments are all over the place in this thread – but it changes nothing to the fact Montreal is a better team going forward holding onto the assets traded away in this proposal.
If Oilers fans feel the same way from their side of things, why would I argue about that? I noticed in the past you guys certainly don't appreciate being told what your team needs and should aim for. It's all good with me.
Honestly, I don't think Montreal even slightly considers that original deal. Habs need Price and Tinordi so much more than the first overall pick and MPS. The fact they already own the 3rd overall pick certainly plays a factor, but it's also because they instantly become a much worse team without Price and Tinordi projects to fill one of this team's direst needs. Whether the 1st overall is <, = or > to Price is up for debate – some good and bad arguments are all over the place in this thread – but it changes nothing to the fact Montreal is a better team going forward holding onto the assets traded away in this proposal.
If Oilers fans feel the same way from their side of things, why would I argue about that? I noticed in the past you guys certainly don't appreciate being told what your team needs and should aim for. It's all good with me.
Very solid point! Contrary to popular belief the Oilers biggest need isnt goaltending (Dubnyk, Roy, and Bunz) or defenseman (Petry, Klefbom, Marincin, Gernat, Musil, Davidson, Blain). Our future for forward prospects is really weak at centre(RNH, Gagner, Lander), LW(Hall, Paajarvi, Hartikinen), RW(Eberle, Yakupov?), Rieder) is kind of weak after the 1st line
I did read your posts and you seemed to imply based on numbers that Price is only marginally better than Dubnyk.
This is the problem, it may have "seemed" like i implied something, but i assure you i did not. I'm sure after reading the comment again, claims of me saying they are comparable talents remained unfounded, no? It's what i mean by ascribing to me a superficially similar argument. I went out of my way to say that Price is better. How i see it is that the difference between a Tommy Salo (Dubnyk) and Curtis Joseph (Price) is not as severe as some make it out to be, it's appreciable but it's not prudent to move a 1st overall to gain the edge between them.
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I happen to think that Dubnyk is underrated around here but Price is one of the elite goalies in the game, he completely carries that team on most nights and has had playoff success while Dubnyk hasn't even proven enough to be a clear #1 on a bad team quite yet. Price is far better than Dubnyk right now. It's just one of those things that goes beyond just looking at the numbers IMO.
When it comes to Price, he does look good but he really has never seemed elite to me at all. He certainly has no supporting evidence beyond perception, and perception can be very wrong (up until the playoffs many people percived Fleury as a possible Veznia canidate, it's silly). Sometimes with goaltenders they look alot better than they are, a guy who isn't flashy but simple just doesn't look as appealing. I think Price is going to grow alot but as i posted earlier i think there are many examples of goaltenders that have more legitimate claims to elite status. Another big thing with Price for me is in the NHL he hasn't got it done in the playoffs yet (you said he has but when? last year was the only year he didn't **** the bed and they still lost in the 1st round. It is a small sample size but in order to claim playoff success shouldn't a goalie make it out of the 1st round with at least am average sv%? .901 doesn't cut it IMO). However playoff success is still a rather minor concern. I do think team circumstance makes Price look worse (it does for Dubnyk too), but if he was elite his numbers would look better. He's one of the top young goalies in the game, but IMO it's jumping the gun to claim he has elite status. Also, lost in all this is that Dubnyk himself is a very solid young goalie too.
Considering i said that Price was better in spite of the numbers and circumstances making things look relatively even, i think it's obvious i don't believe that sv% is the end all to be all. IMO this thread is seeing Dubnyk be underrated and Price overrated. Most commenters offended by my statement (Montreal fans) clearly seem to think of Dubnyk as being a backup or poor starter, they do not recognize he has a fair amount of worth/ability. This is something i posted a few months ago,
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44
Lets look at the top young goalies their ages, save percentage, position on the depth chart, quality of team, and perhaps other key info.
Elliott ------- 27, .940, Backup - Ona top team, was terrible last year behind poor defense
Schnieder -- 26, .934, Backup - On a top team, possibly easier starts
Rask ------- 25, .929, Backup - On a top team, possibly easier starts
Halak ------ 26, .927, Starter - On a top team, backups numbers are unreal
Quick ------ 26, .926, Starter - Good team, top defence
Howard ---- 27, .920, Starter - Very good team
Fleury ----- 27, .918, Starter - On a top team
Harding ---- 27, .918, Backup - Poor team, possibly easier starts Price ------- 24, .917, Starter - Poor team
Enroth ------ 23, .916, Backup - Average team, possibly easier starts Dubnyk ---- 25, .914, Co-Starter - Poor team, poor defence
Varlamov --- 23, .913, Starter - Average team, had very high value last offseason
Bishop ------ 25, .912, Backup - Only 9 games, returned a 2nd, sv% last year .899
Bernier ------ 23, .911, Backup - See Quick, Only 15 games, sv% last year .913
Pavelec ----- 24, .909, Starter - Average team
Crawford ---- 27, .902, Starter - Very good team
Reimer ------ 24, .900, Co-Starter - Poor team
Neuvirth ---- 24, .900, Backup - Average team
Bobrovsky -- 23, .899, Backup - Very good team
Mason ------ 23, .895, Starter - Worst team, former Calder winner
We can see the best 7 goaltenders in this comp. are all on top teams with excellent defence, or in Quicks case behind a top defence. If you consider age, team, and responsibility it sure looks like Dubnyk is a very solid young goalie.
we can see comparing sv%, usage and team circumstance that Dubnyk (like Price) has done very well considering his circumstances. The purpose of me posting these numbers isn't to come to some kind of ultimate conclusion, but rather to educate and stimulate debate. There is value in these comparisons, how much is completely up to debate, and i certainly never ascibed any particular amount of value to them myself. I'm sure you would agree that they are far from irrelevant and that they do in fact shed light on the matter. That was my intention, not to claim something i never actually said. If i felt that Dubnyk and Price were comparable players why would i have left it to be assumed i was implying it? Wouldn't i have just said it? It's not my fault the numbers say what they do, i certainly didn't decide them (again it's not an opinion, it's a fact). I can't help it if people assume i have a position just because i posted evidence that may support it. It's the most objective way of comparing the two, and that's the only reason i brought it up.
To ensure i'm understood, my entire point wasn't to say Dubnyk is equal to Price, it was that Dubnyk's performace has been statistically close enough that trading Yakupov for Price is foolish. How exactly close they are is something i never stated my opinion on.
