HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

How much resources(time & money) do you feel he has wasted?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-25-2012, 03:45 PM
  #26
blasted_Sabre
Global Moderator
Warden of the North
 
blasted_Sabre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Muskoka
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,758
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morlu View Post
I'd go between 2-3. He has been awful with FA signing but pretty solid on trades. Kessel trade aside. His job is on the line though
Thats false. An awful trade would be trades such as JFJ made. ie the toskala trade.

What sickening is the revisionists on this board who are looking back at the JFJ era with rose coloured glasses.

blasted_Sabre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 03:47 PM
  #27
Rare Jewel
Patience
 
Rare Jewel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Leaf Land
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Holmgren simply identifies needs in his roster and then does everything he can to solve those problems. He did bring in Hartnell and Timonen for basically nothing, he spent a fortune to fix a goaltending issue that was relatively minor compared to our troubles, didn't like his very talented and expensive core and blew it up. Burke, in comparison, wastes seasons on guys like Kulemin, MacArthur, Bozak, Gustavsson to come through, and the results have been "modest".
That's all well and good.

But Burke hasn't had the two mid 20's all-star centermen to trade to get the type of return you're seeing now.

The goaltending with Gustavsson especially I'll agree with you on but hindsight is 20/20. Kulemin and Macarther don't belong with Bozak though. One had 62 points and the other had 30 goals, Nobody one this board or anywhere could have predicted the drop off in goals for Kulemin. Which definitely effected Grabo and Mac's point production.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Not at all. It just makes him look foolish for talking about things he can't deliver on. We all knew it wasn't possible. He probably knew it too. If that's the case, don't talk a big game and deliver nothing.

He never guaranteed anything though. He said he was interested in him, And there was a part of the fanbase that bit hard, And were already ordering there #91 Leafs sweaters.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
They don't want to come here because Burke failed to adequately sell the team as an up and coming place to play. He absolutely needed to come in like he was going to move heaven and earth and buckets of money, lure free agents to fill immediate holes while drafting for the future. Isn't that why you pay a GM $3 million a season?

What do you mean "sell"?

Players aren't stupid. They look at the the rosters and know who are the contenders in the league are. Burke didn't fail to sign Richards cause he didn't take him to see how nice the C.N tower is. The Rangers got him cuase their team is bulit to compete and contend now.

They've got the "the Guy" in net with Lundqvst and they have a good core of early to mid 20's players ready to go.(Dubinsky, Callahan, Anisimov, Girardi, Stepan, Mcdonagh)

We may have some of those pieces(Not the Goalie obviously) on the farm or in system but their not ready yet.



But generally speaking though, UFA's between 28 and 31 want to spend their prime years on already established teams ready to contend. We're just not at that stage yet.

Rare Jewel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 03:50 PM
  #28
HockeyGuruPitka
Registered User
 
HockeyGuruPitka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,097
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beezle View Post
He had 2 chances because of the Kessel fiasco. You'll telling me he couldn't move our 2nd rounder and our 25th pick to move up? Percy wouldn't even be a 1st rounder if we did this over again. St.Louis has maximized thier picks in the late 1st round. That's my point. There were good players avaliable at those late positions, but Burke's overpaid and overrated scouting staff fail to see them. You would think the highest paid scouting staff in the league should know more. The scout that St.Louis has was Ottawa's scout prior: the same one that drafted Hossa and Havlat, Mezaros at those late positions when Ottawa was actually great at drafting.
You just proved that you are an arm chair GM. Clearly you have not been following Percy. Kid is playing in the AHL playoffs and looking like a 5 year vet. The coaches subbed him in for Blacker with no hesitation. Just because a player doesnt come across as flashy doesnt mean the leafs didnt get the value out of their pick.

Kessel fiasco? Hes a 5th overal pick and arguably one of the best wingers in the game to date. Lets give you a recap of Boston and Toronto draft history over the last 3 years. I mean i shouldnt even use boston as the example, because unlike you im not going to pick a team at random whos had fantastic success and compare them to the leafs.

we'll start at 2006 when kessel was drafted


Boston - Toronto

2006 Kessel (5th) - Tlusty (13th) Not Burke
2007 Hamill (8th- Bust) - No Pick- Not Burke
2008 Colborne (16th) - Schenn (5th)
2009 Caron (25th) - Kadri (7th)
2010 Seguin (2nd) - No Pick - Burke
2011 Hamilton (9th) - Biggs (22nd)
2011 -Percy (25th)

Lets reformulate this list

Boston
Hamil
Caron
Seguin
Hamilton

Toronto-
Schenn (not Burke)
Kadri
Colborne
Biggs
Kessel
Percy

Lets now add on additional first round picks in either teams system drafted since 2006

Gardiner
Ashton


Now you tell me who has better 1st round pedigree? the Boston Bruins or Toronto Maple leafs?


Last edited by HockeyGuruPitka: 04-25-2012 at 03:58 PM.
HockeyGuruPitka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 03:59 PM
  #29
HockeyGuruPitka
Registered User
 
HockeyGuruPitka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,097
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
Thats false. An awful trade would be trades such as JFJ made. ie the toskala trade.

What sickening is the revisionists on this board who are looking back at the JFJ era with rose coloured glasses.
I hope your not referring to my one random fact thread of a decent trade in 2006. You were trolling nicely through there. In no way do i think JFJ did a good job, but theres nothing wrong with giving credit where credit is due.

HockeyGuruPitka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 04:02 PM
  #30
Stephen
Registered User
 
Stephen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 34,298
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
Thats false. An awful trade would be trades such as JFJ made. ie the toskala trade.
Like Kubina for Exelby?

Stephen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 04:05 PM
  #31
The Podium
Formerly chrisx101
 
The Podium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,735
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by questhockey View Post
mediocre drafting
This one is still way to early to tell. The guys first draft was 2009? Its been 3 ****ing years

Right now of the 23 players drafted,

Kadri, Blacker, D'amigo, Ross, McKegg, Granberg, Biggs, Percy, and Nilsson already look like they can become an NHL regular to some degree, in my opinion at least. Of the 23 drafted, only Smith and Knodel are reaching bust status.

The Podium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 04:05 PM
  #32
The Podium
Formerly chrisx101
 
The Podium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,735
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Like Kubina for Exelby?
Huge contract with a NTC, it is essentially similar to the Gagne for Walker deal.

The Podium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 04:32 PM
  #33
Woodman19
#TeamBernier
 
Woodman19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 13,608
vCash: 500
Burke said he was not interested in 5 year rebuilds, we are going into year #5. Burke's tenure is a failure.

He is just like JP Riccardi, big mouth talker who was able to keep himself here longer then he should of because he was able to talk a big talk.

Woodman19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 04:37 PM
  #34
RogerRoeper*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 21,852
vCash: 500
I do agree Burke needs to shut his pie hole. His comments are coming back to haunt him.

His trades have been very good. But yeah, most of the UFA signings have stunk.

RogerRoeper* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 04:56 PM
  #35
Rinzler
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Mississauga
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,989
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
Burke said he was not interested in 5 year rebuilds, we are going into year #5. Burke's tenure is a failure.

He is just like JP Riccardi, big mouth talker who was able to keep himself here longer then he should of because he was able to talk a big talk.
He's going into year 4. He replaced JFJ mid season which means the group he started with was not his team, he wasn't even there for training camp. It's 3 full years under Burke with a 4th coming two of which were spent gutting the horrible group we had. By claiming he's on his 5th year already tells me what I need to know about you.

Also you're mis representing what he's saying. He said he's not interested in 5 year rebuilds as to say he doesn't believe in buying yourself 5 years of failure. He wanted to accelerate the build and in that he hasn't been successful but certainly he's done everything possible to get this team better. Admittedly the UFAs have not worked out at all.

Would you have rather him stand up on the podium on the 1st day and talk about how crappy the team was and that it will be impossible to be competitive in a short time frame? Which by the way is the actual truth, the organization sucked in every way all the way down the line which is the real problem he had to deal with. The end product is one of many issues he had to address.

Seen the Marlies lately? I know where they would have been under JFJ, sucky without any prospects as they usually were. The Leafs have rebuilt their organization from the ground up if you haven't been paying attention. Why not give it a few years and let some of these guys make it through the system before calling it quits?

Rinzler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 06:00 PM
  #36
blasted_Sabre
Global Moderator
Warden of the North
 
blasted_Sabre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Muskoka
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,758
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Like Kubina for Exelby?
Ya, cause thats on the same level

blasted_Sabre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 06:04 PM
  #37
Penalty Kill Icing*
Fire Carlyle
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,972
vCash: 500
I ain't no Burke hater but he is "All talks and less actions".

Somewhere between 2-3.

Penalty Kill Icing* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 06:11 PM
  #38
Kyle Doobas*
#groovystats
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,689
vCash: 159
3.

Take a look at the Leafs in '07-'08. That was as big a mess of an organization as I've seen in a pretty long time. He's more or less had to rebuild everything from the ground up, and while his tenure hasn't exactly been mistake-free (not addressing the goaltending issue, keeping Wilson around far too long, some poor FA signings, arguably the Kessel trade....), I don't think any GM would have us much further along than we are now.

This isn't exactly how it was supposed to go, but it's pretty close.

Kyle Doobas* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 06:19 PM
  #39
blasted_Sabre
Global Moderator
Warden of the North
 
blasted_Sabre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Muskoka
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,758
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
I hope your not referring to my one random fact thread of a decent trade in 2006. You were trolling nicely through there. In no way do i think JFJ did a good job, but theres nothing wrong with giving credit where credit is due.
Nope. Just JFJ revisonists in general.

EDIT - I didnt troll your thread. Must be mistaking me for someone else. I didnt post in it at all


Last edited by blasted_Sabre: 04-25-2012 at 06:25 PM.
blasted_Sabre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 06:20 PM
  #40
The Podium
Formerly chrisx101
 
The Podium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,735
vCash: 500
I don't know where this ranks but Burke has been good in Toronto but not amazing. Thus far his drafting has been safe and his trades have been risky. Most of the trades have worked out in our favour, some questionable, but there are none that can be deemed an easy loss IMO. He has added a #1 D, a top line W and a potential #1 D for Stajan, White, Mayers, Hagman and Beauchemin. He acquired safe prospects that fit the truculent mold including Biggs, Ross, Ashton, etc. He acquired a young PPG player for what may or may not be an overpayment. The only downfall has been his FA signings which have so far parlayed into Lupul and Gardiner, and a bunch of waste. If he can pull a home run out of his ass again, it may not be too much of a downfall.

The Podium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 06:25 PM
  #41
Leafidelity
Way she goes...
 
Leafidelity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 26,348
vCash: 1775
Comes down to alot of "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink".

Leafidelity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 06:29 PM
  #42
Jerkini
Registered User
 
Jerkini's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,815
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Burke's biggest failure, bar none, was failing to establish some kind of sizzle to his tenure. When he came in there was a lot of hype/hope that was attached to him, and he failed to transfer that momentum onto the ice. He talked like he was in a hurry to get good, but when push came to shove, he didn't seem to have the requisite "Paul Holmgren Sized Balls" to make the big splash necessary:

a) Tavares Talk 2009... fail

b) Publicly Outspoken about front loaded cap circumvention mega deals preventing him from landing big ticket free agents... fail.

c) Not appearing interested in doing everything in his power to getting Kovalchuk, Richards, Gaborik and making Toronto an IT destination... fail.

d) Keeping a stale coach too long, appearing as if he was more interested in proving he was a good boss to work for instead of a man hell bent to win... fail.

e) Making a big deal out of "free wallets". Yeah, a lot of teams dip into college ranks and find great players. Just don't pat yourself on the back too hard like you re-invented the process. Just makes the Leafs seem small time to be licking their lips after inking guys like Bozak, Irwin, Hanson, etc.
I agree with all these points, especially C.

Jerkini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 06:41 PM
  #43
javier
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,155
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
Burke said he was not interested in 5 year rebuilds, we are going into year #5. Burke's tenure is a failure.

He is just like JP Riccardi, big mouth talker who was able to keep himself here longer then he should of because he was able to talk a big talk.
Except JP Riccardi never made a good trade in his eight years as GM, not one, Burke has these trades:

Lupul and Gardiner for Beauchemin.
Phanuef and Aulie for White, Stajan, Hagman, Mayers
Colborne, First, and Second for a washed up Kaberle
Franson and Lombardi for Lebda.

All these trades are outright wins for the Leafs, can you name one good trade for Ricciardi? Not even to mention the fact that Burke made ridiculous draft day trades in the past that includes Pronger and the Sedins, who are future HOF'ers. He also fleeced the Islanders for Bertuzzi who at one point was a force in the NHL And he's won a Cup and he's had numerous teams make the playoffs. Can you say anything of the like for JP Ricciardi? Freakin' tedious.

javier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 07:12 PM
  #44
Kurtz
Registered User
 
Kurtz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,879
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by javier View Post
Except JP Riccardi never made a good trade in his eight years as GM, not one, Burke has these trades:

Lupul and Gardiner for Beauchemin.
Phanuef and Aulie for White, Stajan, Hagman, Mayers
Colborne, First, and Second for a washed up Kaberle
Franson and Lombardi for Lebda.
The great thing about these trades is that they looked like steals the day they were made. We're not even talking about hindsight deals where one of the prospects traded comes out of nowhere or where a pick turns out to be much higher than expected (Kessel). But somehow Burke was able to convince 4 different GMS that they were making good deals, when at the time, 90% of the fans on these boards could see how lopsided they were.


Burke started with a barren roster, and over 3 years has added the following young players to our system:

Kessel, Gardiner, Phaneuf, Franson, Bozak, Scrivens, Ashton, Frattin, Colbourne, Kadri, Blacker, D'amigo, Ross, McKegg, Granberg, Biggs, Percy.

No other GM in hockey has added this many good young players over the last 3 years (excluding EDM, who win every lottery). To suggest that Burke hasn't done anything over 3 years is insane.

Kurtz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 07:23 PM
  #45
javier
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,155
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtz View Post
The great thing about these trades is that they looked like steals the day they were made. We're not even talking about hindsight deals where one of the prospects traded comes out of nowhere or where a pick turns out to be much higher than expected (Kessel). But somehow Burke was able to convince 4 different GMS that they were making good deals, when at the time, 90% of the fans on these boards could see how lopsided they were.


Burke started with a barren roster, and over 3 years has added the following young players to our system:

Kessel, Gardiner, Phaneuf, Franson, Bozak, Scrivens, Ashton, Frattin, Colbourne, Kadri, Blacker, D'amigo, Ross, McKegg, Granberg, Biggs, Percy.

No other GM in hockey has added this many good young players over the last 3 years (excluding EDM, who win every lottery). To suggest that Burke hasn't done anything over 3 years is insane.
And to follow up on this point, when JP Ricciardi was name the Blue Jays GM he inherited a team that had a young Roy Halladay, a young Chris Carpenter, a young Vernon Wells, and a young Carlos Delgado. Fact. Is there anything even close to that Burke inherited? And I have to read drivel like Burke is just like JP Ricciardi? Please.

javier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 07:28 PM
  #46
Brown Dog
Registered User
 
Brown Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,272
vCash: 500
I'm willing to give Burke the benefit of the doubt. But there's no denying this off-season is make or break for him. He really needs to make some key moves that get this team going in the right direction, or things could snowball against him quickly.

Brown Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 07:32 PM
  #47
htpwn
Registered User
 
htpwn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Poland
Posts: 14,089
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
Huge contract with a NTC, it is essentially similar to the Gagne for Walker deal.
The trading of Kubina opened up the cap space needed to sign Komisarek, a player on an even worse contract with a NMC.

It was easily Burke's worst move(s) as the General Manager of the Leafs.

htpwn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 08:08 PM
  #48
KuleminFan41
Registered User
 
KuleminFan41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Country: Portugal
Posts: 4,873
vCash: 500
He can't help how FA's are going to end up. You can't turn every player into gold but unfortunately most of his FA's haven't been particulairy good and people blame Burke unfairly imo. Sure he made the signings but hindsight is 20/20, hes had unfortunate luck there but he's more than made up for it in terms of trades and people should relax a bit on his FA signings. I'm not saying excuse him entirely but you can't blame him on what were solid deals at the time apart from Connolly and Armstrong receiving a little too much

It seems people overlook his good FA's like Mac,Bozak,and Liles.

KuleminFan41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 08:10 PM
  #49
Swervin81
UNLEASH THE DIRTY
 
Swervin81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,606
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stats01 View Post
It was his downfall in Vancouver, and it's his biggest downfall here, GOALTENDING! My goodness Burke does a terrible job at finding anyone who can properly fill the net. Do us all a favour Burke stop being cheap with goaltending and go out and get Luongo, for the love of God. If I hear Burke talk about "free wallets" one more time I'm going to lose it. It's just cheap cheap cheap.
And what will happen when Luongo sucks here?

Swervin81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 08:14 PM
  #50
KuleminFan41
Registered User
 
KuleminFan41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Country: Portugal
Posts: 4,873
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
Burke said he was not interested in 5 year rebuilds, we are going into year #5. Burke's tenure is a failure.

He is just like JP Riccardi, big mouth talker who was able to keep himself here longer then he should of because he was able to talk a big talk.
He inherited someone elses team and joined the Leafs in late November. First year shouldn't count since he was just here for the first year assessing the team since there was a huge turn over of players

KuleminFan41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:52 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.