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Old
06-17-2012, 05:18 PM
  #451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Which also means Staal gets his offense against offensive players that are generally weak defensively.

I think many are getting carried away with what Staal can do offensively.
Yeah, but that's still more than "third line competition" which is what I was responding to.

And he'd play basically the same level of competition here with more offensive zone starts, relevant PP time and better linemates. You don't think Staal's splits would look something like 60-70 points, 20 minutes and good to great play in all three zones?

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06-17-2012, 05:30 PM
  #452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveDaSwords View Post
Williams does not PK...at all.
frankly, Im not sure Pommer would PK in LA either. Williams was a big time PKer in Carolina (#2 behind brindamour).


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Defensively Pominville is miles ahead.

Pommer has more blocked shots, more takeaways (though that's a very imperfect stat), etc.
was that actually your proof of defensive skill? blocked shots and takeaways?

Pominville has a higher Off zone start %

Williams Corsi +21.24
Pommer Corsi -1.98

+/- On
Williams +0.47
Pommer -0.16

I think Pommer is a committed 2 way player. And I don't question his ability. But there is a myth in Buffalo... that Pominville is something special defensively. He plays 200 ft. Like any well rounded player should.

I think there is limited difference in the skills that Pominville/Williams bring defensively.

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Williams is not physical...at all. So similar to Pominville.

Pominville can be expected to put up at least the same amount of points (~60) if not more (like this season). In fact, the only season Williams has produced more was Pommer's concussion year, and even then only by 5 points.
Pommer is also far more durable than Williams, only missing time once to injury (the concussion).
ok, the injury thing is a "fair" difference...

And Pominville has been more productive... (on more "offensive" teams)

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Then there are the "intangibles" of Pommer being the captain, though that's a final consideration given intangibles are, well, intangible.
how many cups does Pommer have?

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Pominville is clearly a better all-around player...I really don't see how that can be disputed. I don't think that's being biased either.
Are you going to provide some sort of detailed analysis or were you going to just rest on hyperbole?

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Williams has a role in LA, and he plays it well. Pommer plays a bigger role here. Williams is more of a glue guy in LA, Pommer is relied on for much more here.
I completely agree. Williams plays his role well. And wins cups in the process. Pominville is given a bigger role... and it has yielded only failure over 5 years.

Pominville should be slotted on a team in the role Williams has in LA. That's the role he belongs in.

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06-17-2012, 05:37 PM
  #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dma0034 View Post
4. His point totals have not steadily increased.
Jordan Staal Pts Per Game last 5 years:
.34
.59
.59
.71
.80

That's exactly what steadily increasing production would look like

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06-17-2012, 05:39 PM
  #454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dma0034 View Post
1. He solely is not responsible
2. Why would trading Roy, a higher ppg player than Staal, allow the Sabres to run 3 scoring lines?
3. More balanced? I don't think so. You are overpaying a player for potential
4. His point totals have not steadily increased.
1) Where did I say he was solely responsible? Oh wait, I didn't. I said that it's a role he plays consistently, which is true.
2) We wouldn't trade Roy for Staal. Trade Roy for a scoring winger for either Staal's or Hodgson's line.
3) Because having a bunch of small skill forwards who can't play D is balanced? Well, I guess we're fine as is then. No need to worry about getting a checking center.
4) You're just wrong. In his first year he had 0.341PPG, then two seasons at 0.518, then 0.714, and last year was 0.806PPG. That is steady improvement in scoring.

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06-17-2012, 05:44 PM
  #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Which also means Staal gets his offense against offensive players that are generally weak defensively.

I think many are getting carried away with what Staal can do offensively.
yea, like be a pt per game player in Crosby's abscence this year... playing with Pascal Dupuis, Matt Cooke, and Tyler Kennedy


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06-17-2012, 05:45 PM
  #456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
yea, like be a pt per game player in Crosby's abscence this year... playing with Pascal Dupuis, Matt Cooke, and Tyler Kennedy

Hey Matt Cooke is a 20 goal scorer

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06-17-2012, 05:58 PM
  #457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
frankly, Im not sure Pommer would PK in LA either. Williams was a big time PKer in Carolina (#2 behind brindamour).




was that actually your proof of defensive skill? blocked shots and takeaways?

Pominville has a higher Off zone start %

Williams Corsi +21.24
Pommer Corsi -1.98

+/- On
Williams +0.47
Pommer -0.16

I think Pommer is a committed 2 way player. And I don't question his ability. But there is a myth in Buffalo... that Pominville is something special defensively. He plays 200 ft. Like any well rounded player should.

I think there is limited difference in the skills that Pominville/Williams bring defensively.



ok, the injury thing is a "fair" difference...

And Pominville has been more productive... (on more "offensive" teams)



how many cups does Pommer have?



Are you going to provide some sort of detailed analysis or were you going to just rest on hyperbole?



I completely agree. Williams plays his role well. And wins cups in the process. Pominville is given a bigger role... and it has yielded only failure over 5 years.

Pominville should be slotted on a team in the role Williams has in LA. That's the role he belongs in.
There are some times where you actually made cogent points, but then you use a completely idiotic argument like that. There's 18 players on a team, the # of stanley cups won is no reflection on a player's individual skill/ability/worth.

There plenty poor NHL players who have won multiple stanley cups, and there are plenty of really good NHL players who haven't won any.

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06-17-2012, 06:35 PM
  #458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
1) Where did I say he was solely responsible? Oh wait, I didn't. I said that it's a role he plays consistently, which is true.
2) We wouldn't trade Roy for Staal. Trade Roy for a scoring winger for either Staal's or Hodgson's line.
3) Because having a bunch of small skill forwards who can't play D is balanced? Well, I guess we're fine as is then. No need to worry about getting a checking center.
4) You're just wrong. In his first year he had 0.341PPG, then two seasons at 0.518, then 0.714, and last year was 0.806PPG. That is steady improvement in scoring.
1. You're giving him more credit. Oh he lines up against oppositing teams best players night in and night out. No he doesn't. He played on the 2nd line last year (thats a scoring line not a shut down line)
2. Why would you trade Roy period. You wouldn't get his worth back. Better to keep him as a winger or hey a nice 4th line center
3. Our defense was solid when healthy.
4. No you said point production. I don't like the fact he's been injuried 60 games the last 2 years.

I'm not arguing that Staal is a good forward and defensively sound. I'm arguing why the Sabres would trade their captain and leader in the points for someone who is unproven (as a #1 center) when they desperately need offense. I haven't seen anything from Staal that suggests he can or will be a #1 center plain and simple. Then after trading our best forward we sign him to a 5.5-6m a year contract (guessing)? What makes him a 6million dollar player when Roy is a 4 million?

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06-17-2012, 06:36 PM
  #459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dma0034 View Post
1. You're giving him more credit. Oh he lines up against oppositing teams best players night in and night out. No he doesn't. He played on the 2nd line last year (thats a scoring line not a shut down line)
2. Why would you trade Roy period. You wouldn't get his worth back. Better to keep him as a winger or hey a nice 4th line center
3. Our defense was solid when healthy.
4. No you said point production. I don't the fact he's been injuried 60 games the last 2 years.

I'm not arguing that Staal is a good forward and defensively sound. I'm arguing why the Sabres would trade their captain and leader in the points for someone who is unproven (as a #1 center) when they desperately need offense. I haven't seen anything from Staal that suggests he can or will be a #1 center plain and simple. Then after trading our best forward we sign him to a 5.5-6m a year contract (guessing)? What makes him a 6million dollar player when Roy is a 4 million?
you should try watching him.

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06-17-2012, 07:18 PM
  #460
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As much as Id love having Staal here, I dont even consider trading Pominville for him. Pominville is so underrated by some people its ridiculous. This team needs more guys LIKE him (the "do it all" types) Trading one for another doesnt really make you better

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06-17-2012, 07:25 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by CaptPantalones View Post
As much as Id love having Staal here, I dont even consider trading Pominville for him. Pominville is so underrated by some people its ridiculous. This team needs more guys LIKE him (the "do it all" types) Trading one for another doesnt really make you better
the Sabres need more of what they don't have, not more of what they already have...

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06-17-2012, 07:54 PM
  #462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
the Sabres need more of what they don't have, not more of what they already have...
Are you saying they have more guys that can do what Pominville does? Because if thats the case, I think your way off here. They dont have anyone close to Pominville in terms of 2 way play

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06-17-2012, 08:09 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Yeah, but that's still more than "third line competition" which is what I was responding to.

And he'd play basically the same level of competition here with more offensive zone starts, relevant PP time and better linemates. You don't think Staal's splits would look something like 60-70 points, 20 minutes and good to great play in all three zones?
I'm saying I don't know what he would produce in a top line role here.

I think too many are ignoring the unique nature of Staal's role in Pittburgh and its impact on his production. He is playing about as much or more at ES (15:25) than all but 20 centers in the entire league. His enormous ES ice time means he got ice time divided among a few wingers. He played with Dupuis (46.3%) of his 5 on 5 shifts, then Cooke (33.8%), Kennedy (33.4%), Kunitz (27.4%) and Sullivan (22.5%).

Dupuis and Kennedy are 15-20 goal scorers.
Cooke is a 15g scorer
Kunitz is a 25+ goal scorer
Sullivan is still a high teen/20 g guy.

Hardly offensive superstars but they're also not devoid of offensive ability. Combin that with weak defensive players put against them and its not surprising Staal put up good numbers.

If Staal came here and center our #1 line. He will be getting far tougher defensive players out against him more often. Are better linemates enough to negate this? I don't know since he's never had to consistantly face top defenders due to Malkin and Crosby in front of him.


Much would hinge on the development of Hodgson/Ennis and their lines. Are we really going to expect a Foligno (a rookie) and Ennis to carry an offenisve line that can divert attention from a Staal line? Or a Hodgson line? Particular if the Pommer for Staal trade idea ever happened. I think that would be a pointless spin the wheels trade. If we ever got Staal the perfect player to put with him is Pommer.


Last edited by joshjull: 06-17-2012 at 08:44 PM.
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06-17-2012, 08:18 PM
  #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I'm saying I don't know what he would produce in a top line role here.

I think too many are ignoring the unique nature of Staal's role in Pittburgh and its impact on his production. He is playing about as much or more at ES (15:25) than all but 20 centers in the entire league. His enormous ES ice time means he got ice time devided among a few wingers. He played with Dupuis (46.3%) of his 5 on 5 shifts, then Cooke (33.8%), Kennedy (33.4%), Kunitz (27.4%) and Sullivan (22.5%).

Dupuis and Kennedy are 15-20 goal scorers.
Cooke is a 15g scorer
Kunitz is a 25+ goal scorer
Sullivan is still a high teen/20 g guy.

Hardly offensive superstars but they're also not devoid of offensive ability. Combin that with weak defensive players put against them and its not surprising Staal put up good numbers.

If Staal came here and center our #1 line. He will be getting far tougher defensive players out against him more often. Are better linemates enough to negate this? I don't know.


Much would hinge on the development of Hodgson/Ennis and their lines. Are we really going to expect a Foligno (a rookie) and Ennis to carry an offenisve line that can divert attention from a Staal line? Or a Hodgson line? Particular if the Pommer for Staal trade idea ever happened. I think that would be a pointless spin the wheels trade. If we ever got Staal the perfect player to put with him is Pommer.
That I agree with. idk what else the Pens would be interested in from Buff though. Maybe Roy + Sekera (+ maybe a mid-round pick?). They get a guy to play the 3rd C role and a cheap great d-man.

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06-17-2012, 08:18 PM
  #465
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
yea, like be a pt per game player in Crosby's abscence this year... playing with Pascal Dupuis, Matt Cooke, and Tyler Kennedy

Staal has never put up numbers facing the other teams top defenders.

Do you really think mentioning Crosby changes anything when the Pens still have Malkin. His line was the Pens top line all season.

I'm not criticizing him for these facts. I'm juts pointing them out. All I'm saying is its a bit much to just assume he will put up huge numbers offensively as a #1 center.

EDIT: Btw I would love to have him and don't need him to put up huge numbers to be the center we need. Consistantly putting up 25g 50pt seasons while playing Selke caliber defense is what I expect.


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06-17-2012, 08:30 PM
  #466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Staal has never put up numbers facing the other teams top defenders.

Do you really think mentioning Crosby changes anything when the Pens still have Malkin. His line was the Pens top line all season.

I'm not criticizing him for these facts. I'm juts pointing them out. All I'm saying is its a bit much to just assume he will put up huge numbers offensively as a #1 center.

EDIT: Btw I would love to have him and don't need him to put up huge numbers to be the center we need. Consistantly putting up 25g 50pt seasons while playing Selke caliber defense is what I expect.
I don't disagree with you in principle, but Staal produced at a respectable rate in 10-11 when he had nowhere to hide as the #1.

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06-17-2012, 08:40 PM
  #467
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
I don't disagree with you in principle, but Staal produced at a respectable rate in 10-11 when he had nowhere to hide as the #1.
Thats true. He played about 28 of his 42 games with Malkin and Crosby out.


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06-17-2012, 08:40 PM
  #468
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What are people's views on Staal's playoff production, or lack thereof? He has never reached double digit point totals in his whole career, and that includes 2 extended playoff runs to the Stanley Cup Finals.I don't think he can be classified as a #1 center if he underwhelms in the playoffs, but he'd be a great #2, but that would mean we are still looking for our #1 center.

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06-17-2012, 08:51 PM
  #469
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He has never reached double digit point totals in his whole career.
He came close this year with nine points in a single series. Six of those points were goals. Pretty good, no?

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06-17-2012, 08:58 PM
  #470
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He came close this year with nine points in a single series. Six of those points were goals. Pretty good, no?
4 out of those 6 goals came in games 4 + 5, which came after his team was practically eliminated down 3-0. So what I said still stands, never reached dougle digit points in the playoffs and that's including 2 cup run seasons.The Sabre fan base as a whole is tough on our own with their lack of postseason production, so it's kind of funny to see it not brought up at all when it Comes to Staal.

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06-17-2012, 09:14 PM
  #471
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Originally Posted by Sabres57 View Post
He came close this year with nine points in a single series. Six of those points were goals. Pretty good, no?
It was Philly.... those teams were scoring at will and just so happened that this year was the year all the defensive teams succeeded (ironically)

I've actually watched the Penguins a lot. I can promise you that Staal doesn't have the creativeness to be a play-making center and lacks the accuracy to be a goal-scoring center.

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06-17-2012, 09:45 PM
  #472
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I completely agree. Williams plays his role well. And wins cups in the process. Pominville is given a bigger role... and it has yielded only failure over 5 years.

Pominville should be slotted on a team in the role Williams has in LA. That's the role he belongs in

Williams won a Cup in Carolina with Staal/Brindy/Cullen up the middle. Then again this year with Kopitar/Richards/Stoll up the middle.

Pommer's top 3 centers in the last 5 seasons have been Roy/Connolly or Hecht/Goose.

But you've come to the conclusion that Pommer is the problem and the reason we've lost

William's production has always been a product of who his centers have been. He's played the entire post-lockout years with E.Staal and Kopitar as his centers. Pommer after one year with Briere as his center had Connolly and Hecht as his primary centers. Plus Adam and Roy had some time with him this season. Nothing on the level of Staal or Kopitar after Briere.

Yet Pommer has been more productive of the two post lockout.

Pommer .32 gpg and .80 ptspg
Williams .29gpg and .74 ptspg

Could you imagine the numbers Pommer could put up if he was able to consistantly play with the caliber of center Williams has been lucky enough to play with.

Pommer's defensive abilities are not a myth nor are his excellent PKing abilities. You just feel the need to belittle them and by extension Pommer to justify an arguement to trade him for Staal. Thats without getting into the impact of dealing away the captain. As if we need that turmoil again.


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06-17-2012, 09:59 PM
  #473
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Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post
What are people's views on Staal's playoff production, or lack thereof? He has never reached double digit point totals in his whole career, and that includes 2 extended playoff runs to the Stanley Cup Finals.I don't think he can be classified as a #1 center if he underwhelms in the playoffs, but he'd be a great #2, but that would mean we are still looking for our #1 center.
Eh, I'd hesitate to make too many conclusions based on that info alone. (ie: during those runs, was he actually being used in a way that would facilitate scoring or as a shutdown center?)

Anyway, I'm really not as concerned about having "a true 1C" as I am about having a winning team. If Hodgson and Ennis continue to develop, and we add Staal to the mix, I think that's a solid center group to build a winning team around.

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06-17-2012, 10:02 PM
  #474
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Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post
4 out of those 6 goals came in games 4 + 5, which came after his team was practically eliminated down 3-0.
Every goal counts, and there's no "practically eliminated" - you're either still playing or you're out. Even if you want to discount Staal's production in the fourth and fifth games, he still had a pair of goals in the first three. There's nothing wrong with that ratio.

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Originally Posted by dma0034 View Post
It was Philly.... those teams were scoring at will and just so happened that this year was the year all the defensive teams succeeded (ironically)
Yes, there was a lot of offense in the series. But only three players - Briere, Giroux and Staal - had at least six goals in it. Staal outscored both Malkin and Crosby, and to discount his performance just because there were a ton of goals scored by other players during the series is unfair. He clearly showed up.

Quote:
I've actually watched the Penguins a lot. I can promise you that Staal doesn't have the creativeness to be a play-making center and lacks the accuracy to be a goal-scoring center
Even if that's true and his offensive development stagnates and he tops out as a 20-goal, 50-point type, he's still a very valuable player - an asset any team would want. Players like him are important cogs.

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Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
Eh, I'd hesitate to make too many conclusions based on that info alone. (ie: during those runs, was he actually being used in a way that would facilitate scoring or as a shutdown center?)

Anyway, I'm really not as concerned about having "a true 1C" as I am about having a winning team. If Hodgson and Ennis continue to develop, and we add Staal to the mix, I think that's a solid center group to build a winning team around.
I agree with all of this.

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06-17-2012, 10:12 PM
  #475
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Did he show up or did the defense not show? I mean Vanek has scored a lot of goals in the Philly/Boston series....wouldn't say he showed up.

While I like the idea of having Ennis - Hodgson - Staal - Roy I don't like giving up Pominville to do it. I think it hurts the flow of the lines more than it helps. If we're giving up draft picks and prospects sure but not Pominville.

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