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Old
06-17-2012, 10:20 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by dma0034 View Post
Did he show up or did the defense not show? I mean Vanek has scored a lot of goals in the Philly/Boston series....wouldn't say he showed up.
Both. And if I remember correctly - it's been two-plus years, so maybe I don't - Vanek was fairly dominant during the Boston series. Boychuk put an end to that, though.

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While I like the idea of having Ennis - Hodgson - Staal - Roy I don't like giving up Pominville to do it.
I don't either.

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06-17-2012, 10:27 PM
  #477
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Williams won a Cup in Carolina with Staal/Brindy/Cullen up the middle. Then again this year with Kopitar/Richards/Stoll up the middle.

Pommer's top 3 centers in the last 5 seasons have been Roy/Connolly or Hecht/Goose.

But you've come to the conclusion that Pommer is the problem and the reason we've lost
i never said any such nonsense... id love to have pommer with Kopitar, Richards, Stoll up the middle. That would be awesome!

Don't we agree that centers are more important? So if I can get one of the answers to that center equation by trading a very good player in pommer... then im definitely going to do it. sentimentality is for the birds

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William's production has always been a product of who his centers have been. He's played the entire post-lockout years with E.Staal and Kopitar as his centers. Pommer after one year with Briere as his center had Connolly and Hecht as his primary centers. Plus Adam and Roy had some time with him this season. Nothing on the level of Staal or Kopitar after Briere.
that's been a great excuse for the rochester core for years...

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Yet Pommer has been more productive of the two post lockout.

Pommer .32 gpg and .80 ptspg
Williams .29gpg and .74 ptspg
yup

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Could you imagine the numbers Pommer could put up if he was able to consistantly play with the caliber of center Williams has been lucky enough to play with.
could you imagine the wins this team would produce if built correctly? If pommer is the means to acquire such building blocks then so be it

this isnt a knock against pommer... even if you see the Williams comparison as such... this is about Staal

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Pommer's defensive abilities are not a myth nor are his excellent PKing abilities. You just feel the need to belittle them and by extension Pommer to justify an arguement to trade him for Staal. Thats without getting into the impact of dealing away the captain. As if we need that turmoil again.
What are "excellent PKing abilities" for a forward?

I feel the need to acquire a player like staal... i feel that wingers are of less value then centers. i think you win with players like staal, and players like pominville are nice to have too.

Who needs any turmoil... we just need to keep adding to this core, right?

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06-17-2012, 10:30 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Staal has never put up numbers facing the other teams top defenders.

Do you really think mentioning Crosby changes anything when the Pens still have Malkin. His line was the Pens top line all season.

I'm not criticizing him for these facts. I'm juts pointing them out. All I'm saying is its a bit much to just assume he will put up huge numbers offensively as a #1 center.

EDIT: Btw I would love to have him and don't need him to put up huge numbers to be the center we need. Consistantly putting up 25g 50pt seasons while playing Selke caliber defense is what I expect.
it's not an assumption. it's an analysis. something you only do in hindsight

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06-17-2012, 10:33 PM
  #479
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I'm saying I don't know what he would produce in a top line role here.

I think too many are ignoring the unique nature of Staal's role in Pittburgh and its impact on his production. He is playing about as much or more at ES (15:25) than all but 20 centers in the entire league. His enormous ES ice time means he got ice time divided among a few wingers. He played with Dupuis (46.3%) of his 5 on 5 shifts, then Cooke (33.8%), Kennedy (33.4%), Kunitz (27.4%) and Sullivan (22.5%).

Dupuis and Kennedy are 15-20 goal scorers.
Cooke is a 15g scorer
Kunitz is a 25+ goal scorer
Sullivan is still a high teen/20 g guy.

Hardly offensive superstars but they're also not devoid of offensive ability. Combin that with weak defensive players put against them and its not surprising Staal put up good numbers.

If Staal came here and center our #1 line. He will be getting far tougher defensive players out against him more often. Are better linemates enough to negate this? I don't know since he's never had to consistantly face top defenders due to Malkin and Crosby in front of him.


Much would hinge on the development of Hodgson/Ennis and their lines. Are we really going to expect a Foligno (a rookie) and Ennis to carry an offenisve line that can divert attention from a Staal line? Or a Hodgson line? Particular if the Pommer for Staal trade idea ever happened. I think that would be a pointless spin the wheels trade. If we ever got Staal the perfect player to put with him is Pommer.
hmmm.... so if Staal is checking the other teams top line, he's seeing weak players defensively?

hmmm... is Jason Pominville on the top line? is he weak defensively?

hmmm... what about a Kopitar line? or a Callahan line?

This idea that checking the top lines, means you get "easy" matchups when on offense... total nonsense


Last edited by Jame: 06-17-2012 at 10:46 PM.
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06-17-2012, 11:42 PM
  #480
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
hmmm.... so if Staal is checking the other teams top line, he's seeing weak players defensively?

hmmm... is Jason Pominville on the top line? is he weak defensively?

hmmm... what about a Kopitar line? or a Callahan line?

This idea that checking the top lines, means you get "easy" matchups when on offense... total nonsense
So because those lines have one good defensive player the other 4 are instantly good too? I forgot what a stud defensively Vanek was with Pominville or Gaborik with Callahan. And how many times did Pitt play L.A this year?

But look at the Penguins last year. Neal and Malkin weren't exactly all-stars and wouldn't you put the 2nd or 3rd pairing of dmen out when Malkin is out? Yes some teams have great defensive players (see Detroit) as a forward but 9 times out of 10 the top line isn't meant to play in their own zone.

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06-17-2012, 11:59 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by dma0034 View Post
But look at the Penguins last year. Neal and Malkin weren't exactly all-stars and wouldn't you put the 2nd or 3rd pairing of dmen out when Malkin is out? Yes some teams have great defensive players (see Detroit) as a forward but 9 times out of 10 the top line isn't meant to play in their own zone.
I'm not sure if this is a troll post or I'm reading it wrong. The Sabres exclusively used shut down pairings against those 2.

But I came here to complain about the idea of moving teams best winger (most consistent, versatile, healthiest) for another potential 1c. You can't run 3 scoring lines with Vanek and Stafford as the only scoring threats on the flanks. We didn't have competent enough wingers to run 2 legit scoring lines last season and now we are gonna trade 1 to replace Roy, a 65pnt center coming off a down year. I'm sorry but those assets are better spent upgrading Vaneks wing so at least 2 of our lines can be a consistent threat.

There are so many tires to kick before you back into a corner andmove pommers, including offering Pitt Sekera to play on that sub par back end of theirs. Heck offer pommers to the Jets for Kane, at least that changes the way the current team plays.

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06-18-2012, 12:08 AM
  #482
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I'm saying I don't know what he would produce in a top line role here.

I think too many are ignoring the unique nature of Staal's role in Pittburgh and its impact on his production. He is playing about as much or more at ES (15:25) than all but 20 centers in the entire league. His enormous ES ice time means he got ice time divided among a few wingers. He played with Dupuis (46.3%) of his 5 on 5 shifts, then Cooke (33.8%), Kennedy (33.4%), Kunitz (27.4%) and Sullivan (22.5%).

Dupuis and Kennedy are 15-20 goal scorers.
Cooke is a 15g scorer
Kunitz is a 25+ goal scorer
Sullivan is still a high teen/20 g guy.

Hardly offensive superstars but they're also not devoid of offensive ability. Combin that with weak defensive players put against them and its not surprising Staal put up good numbers.

If Staal came here and center our #1 line. He will be getting far tougher defensive players out against him more often. Are better linemates enough to negate this? I don't know since he's never had to consistantly face top defenders due to Malkin and Crosby in front of him.


Much would hinge on the development of Hodgson/Ennis and their lines. Are we really going to expect a Foligno (a rookie) and Ennis to carry an offenisve line that can divert attention from a Staal line? Or a Hodgson line? Particular if the Pommer for Staal trade idea ever happened. I think that would be a pointless spin the wheels trade. If we ever got Staal the perfect player to put with him is Pommer.
Completely agree. The top candidates for trading to the Pens for Staal are Sekera and Pominville. Right combo of talent, filling needs, and salary. Unfortunately, Buffalo will create a hole by adding Staal. I think it's easier to find good linemates for Staal, or a replacement for Sekera, than finding another player like Staal.

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06-18-2012, 12:24 AM
  #483
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Originally Posted by dma0034 View Post
Did he show up or did the defense not show? I mean Vanek has scored a lot of goals in the Philly/Boston series....wouldn't say he showed up.

While I like the idea of having Ennis - Hodgson - Staal - Roy I don't like giving up Pominville to do it. I think it hurts the flow of the lines more than it helps. If we're giving up draft picks and prospects sure but not Pominville.
That's an odd definition of showing up.

Vanek played in ten playoff games against Boston and Phily. He scored 7 goals. Isn't that what highly paid, top-line wingers are paid to do?

How can you say that scoring six goals in six games isn't showing up?

- Game three: Staal scored the first goal of the game, and the the Pens fourth goal to make the score 5-4 Phily.

- Game four: score to make the game 4-3 Pens, 6-3 Pens, and 9-3 Pens. The last counts as a garbage time goal

- Game five: Scored to make the game 2-2, and assisted on the GWG.

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06-18-2012, 01:32 AM
  #484
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Originally Posted by Imlach a cup View Post
I'm not sure if this is a troll post or I'm reading it wrong. The Sabres exclusively used shut down pairings against those 2.

But I came here to complain about the idea of moving teams best winger (most consistent, versatile, healthiest) for another potential 1c. You can't run 3 scoring lines with Vanek and Stafford as the only scoring threats on the flanks. We didn't have competent enough wingers to run 2 legit scoring lines last season and now we are gonna trade 1 to replace Roy, a 65pnt center coming off a down year. I'm sorry but those assets are better spent upgrading Vaneks wing so at least 2 of our lines can be a consistent threat.

There are so many tires to kick before you back into a corner andmove pommers, including offering Pitt Sekera to play on that sub par back end of theirs. Heck offer pommers to the Jets for Kane, at least that changes the way the current team plays.
You read it wrong. I was talking about Malkin and Neal's defensive skills and who the Penguins would pair with them not who the Sabres would pair against them.

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06-18-2012, 01:38 AM
  #485
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That's an odd definition of showing up.

Vanek played in ten playoff games against Boston and Phily. He scored 7 goals. Isn't that what highly paid, top-line wingers are paid to do?

How can you say that scoring six goals in six games isn't showing up?

- Game three: Staal scored the first goal of the game, and the the Pens fourth goal to make the score 5-4 Phily.

- Game four: score to make the game 4-3 Pens, 6-3 Pens, and 9-3 Pens. The last counts as a garbage time goal

- Game five: Scored to make the game 2-2, and assisted on the GWG.
I mentioned it as dominate. Staal wasn't dominate in those games. Yes he had 6 goals but it seemed he was more of a benefactor of awful goaltending and defense.

Why I brought up Vanek was that he wasn't very good in the playoff series against Philly but still had 5 goals.... it was more about the terrible goaltending than it was Vanek creating chances is all.

I bring this up because half the people here thing that Staal would be Buffalo's first line center and that is laughable. He doesn't take over games as a first line center should..... that is why the Sabres shouldn't trade a 1st line player for him.

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06-18-2012, 05:38 AM
  #486
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Just took this off the main Staal thread, but according to Pens beat writer Rob Rossi, hes hearing Carolina has offered Brandon Sutter, Justin Falk, the 8th pick and possibly another piece for Staal and could be willing to take on Paul Martin's contract

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06-18-2012, 06:16 AM
  #487
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Originally Posted by CaptPantalones View Post
Just took this off the main Staal thread, but according to Pens beat writer Rob Rossi, hes hearing Carolina has offered Brandon Sutter, Justin Falk, the 8th pick and possibly another piece for Staal and could be willing to take on Paul Martin's contract
Well then.

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06-18-2012, 08:31 AM
  #488
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Originally Posted by dma0034 View Post
I mentioned it as dominate. Staal wasn't dominate in those games. Yes he had 6 goals but it seemed he was more of a benefactor of awful goaltending and defense.

Why I brought up Vanek was that he wasn't very good in the playoff series against Philly but still had 5 goals.... it was more about the terrible goaltending than it was Vanek creating chances is all.

I bring this up because half the people here thing that Staal would be Buffalo's first line center and that is laughable. He doesn't take over games as a first line center should..... that is why the Sabres shouldn't trade a 1st line player for him.
Define "dominant" if you would, please? Just so we all know what standard you're judging Vanek and Staal against.

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06-18-2012, 09:21 AM
  #489
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Originally Posted by CaptPantalones View Post
Just took this off the main Staal thread, but according to Pens beat writer Rob Rossi, hes hearing Carolina has offered Brandon Sutter, Justin Falk, the 8th pick and possibly another piece for Staal and could be willing to take on Paul Martin's contract
That's a tasty package of assets, even if they have to foot the bill on Martin who is coming off a bad year but still has some defensive chops (especially in the right system). That's a Hodgson/Ennis, McNabb, #12 trumper.

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06-18-2012, 10:07 AM
  #490
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Originally Posted by CaptPantalones View Post
Just took this off the main Staal thread, but according to Pens beat writer Rob Rossi, hes hearing Carolina has offered Brandon Sutter, Justin Falk, the 8th pick and possibly another piece for Staal and could be willing to take on Paul Martin's contract

If true there's no way Pittsburgh turns this down, seems like a potential great deal for both sides..

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06-18-2012, 10:33 AM
  #491
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Just took this off the main Staal thread, but according to Pens beat writer Rob Rossi, hes hearing Carolina has offered Brandon Sutter, Justin Falk, the 8th pick and possibly another piece for Staal and could be willing to take on Paul Martin's contract
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That's a tasty package of assets, even if they have to foot the bill on Martin who is coming off a bad year but still has some defensive chops (especially in the right system). That's a Hodgson/Ennis, McNabb, #12 trumper.
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If true there's no way Pittsburgh turns this down, seems like a potential great deal for both sides..
That is quite the package, however, it is pretty future heavy. Staal-Skinner-Staal is pretty good center depth. The good news is their D will still be awful. Martin, Gleason, and Pitkanen is a pretty soft top 4.

The deal really only makes sense if Pittsburgh is gonna make a big run at Suter simply because it would appear they are clearing salary to make room for some sort of big long term acquisition. At 70 million cap they can easily afford to spend 24-25 million on 3 players, assuming 9 million each for Malkin/Crosby and 6 million or so on Staal.

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06-18-2012, 10:42 AM
  #492
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That is quite the package, however, it is pretty future heavy. Staal-Skinner-Staal is pretty good center depth. The good news is their D will still be awful. Martin, Gleason, and Pitkanen is a pretty soft top 4.

The deal really only makes sense if Pittsburgh is gonna make a big run at Suter simply because it would appear they are clearing salary to make room for some sort of big long term acquisition. At 70 million cap they can easily afford to spend 24-25 million on 3 players, assuming 9 million each for Malkin/Crosby and 6 million or so on Staal.
Carolina's defense strength is in the prospects. Brian Dumoulin, Ryan Murphy, Keegan Lowe are a pretty solid trio coming up the pipe and they already have Gleason. Or is it that they are generally not physical as a unit?

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06-18-2012, 10:51 AM
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I don't buy the Rossi rumor.

Organizations are never that loose-lipped when it comes to trade packages. I think it's purely speculative on his part.

Specific secondary pieces never come up in trade rumors.

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06-18-2012, 10:58 AM
  #494
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Its funny I have just recently come to terms with the idea of trading for Staal, and just as I do, our chances end up being quite slim....ah well...

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06-18-2012, 12:28 PM
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Carolina's defense strength is in the prospects. Brian Dumoulin, Ryan Murphy, Keegan Lowe are a pretty solid trio coming up the pipe and they already have Gleason. Or is it that they are generally not physical as a unit?
It's the lack of compete level, not necessarily the physicality, though that is a part of it. I've seen alot of Carolina goals against where the d just gives up on the play and lets the forwards waltz right in. Gleason is their best all around D-man and he's a second pairing guy on most teams. Pitkanen has all the tools, but seems to be content to let guys skate right by him in his own zone. It's a soft d, both mentally and physically.

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06-18-2012, 01:53 PM
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Roy, Sekera, #12 for Staal? Probably not fair value, but it would give them another center who can also play wing, a solid all around defenseman, plus a decent first rounder. I think Roy and Sekera might have some more value than people think. I'm sure we'd have to add another high prospect too

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06-18-2012, 01:58 PM
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Carolina makes a lot of sense for Staal because the Canes can send an ideal 3C (Sutter) and other assets, as well. We don't have that young, checking-line center that Pittsburgh covets.

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06-18-2012, 02:37 PM
  #498
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Carolina makes a lot of sense for Staal because the Canes can send an ideal 3C (Sutter) and other assets, as well. We don't have that young, checking-line center that Pittsburgh covets.
Yep. The lack of a Bolland/Sutter has tempered my expectations for a Staal acquisition for the start.

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06-18-2012, 03:57 PM
  #499
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Carolina makes a lot of sense for Staal because the Canes can send an ideal 3C (Sutter) and other assets, as well. We don't have that young, checking-line center that Pittsburgh covets.
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Yep. The lack of a Bolland/Sutter has tempered my expectations for a Staal acquisition for the start.
Everything that I've read about the Carolina offseason wish list is that the Canes first and foremost want a winger to play with Eric. The suggestion that some have made that they'd acquire Jordan to center Eric as a winger on the same line seems a little odd. Do people really think they'd become another Sedin duo just because of their sibling status?

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06-19-2012, 03:02 PM
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Jordan Staal will not be traded, according to #Penguins GM Ray Shero

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