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"The Greiss is Always Greener" (Off-Season Speculation Part II)

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Old
04-29-2012, 06:18 PM
  #326
Gene Parmesan
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Patrick Marleau for Danny Briere. lol.

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Old
04-29-2012, 06:18 PM
  #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
I disagree, pavs was getting a ton of chances, that was because they were winning battles on the back boards. But I forgot couture in my line up as well lol, he's not the answer either, I'm hoping we go away from chip and chase, and start entering the zone more. Get it deep when you have to though.

I think the blues beat us because we have a lack of snipers...we actually outplayed them on our forecheck quite often, even with our lack of speed. But the bad zone entries and sustained zone time certainly stand out. Clowe honestly won't get us what we are looking for. He's on a down year and we will likely come out on bottom in a trade. But who knows.
Pavs was getting chances but not a ton and they weren't winning those battles that much. And I disagree that they were outplaying them often. It wasn't just failed scoring chances that was why they weren't producing. Their zone entries and board play to retrieve the puck weren't up to snuff against a team with mobile blue liners and quick back-checking forwards that were on top of them almost all the time.

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Old
04-29-2012, 06:20 PM
  #328
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Last night I dreamt that we traded Patty to St. Louis for 9 players. Yes, NINE players lol. In my dream I kept trying to find out who the 9 were via TSN, hfboards, etc, but I couldn't find anything. Maybe I missed the E5.

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Old
04-29-2012, 06:30 PM
  #329
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Well, a ton of chances relatively speaking. They kept us below our averages but we did well on our forecheck. It was our break out that allowed them to setup in the neutral zone that made us look worse than we played. But they'd get the lead and just get everyone behind the puck...our blue liners rarelwy pinched and didn't move the puck laterally, our system isn't just the three guys in offense.

Shooting into shin pads, constantly putting the puck into three blues players all contributed. But the initial forecheck looked good enough to my eyes. Our movement in the slot left a lot to be desired, because they'd overload puck pressure on our blue line and we wouldn't move into that space, ever.

If the rest of the NHL adopts that system, well id be worried, and I agree with you that there is a distinct lack of speed up there..but if that was the answer we'd keep Mitchell up there. As it stands and what we could get in returns or UFA, pavs is the lesser evil.

Still I'd rather roll out

Couture-Thornton-clowe
UFA/trade-marleau-havlat
Winnik-pavs-wingels
Galiardi-desjardins-Mitchell/sheppard

But the unfortunate fact is we need 2 top 6 additions if we move clowe...or a tweener, but in terms of what we could realistically get. I don't see much change. So pavs will stay up there out of necessity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Pavs was getting chances but not a ton and they weren't winning those battles that much. And I disagree that they were outplaying them often. It wasn't just failed scoring chances that was why they weren't producing. Their zone entries and board play to retrieve the puck weren't up to snuff against a team with mobile blue liners and quick back-checking forwards that were on top of them almost all the time.

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Old
04-29-2012, 06:35 PM
  #330
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Couture-Thornton-Clowe would be the single slowest line in the NHL.

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Old
04-29-2012, 06:40 PM
  #331
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FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Daniel Winnik ($2.000m)
Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Tommy Wingels ($1.000m)
T.J. Galiardi ($0.600m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.650m) / Torrey Mitchell ($1.000m)
Michal Handzus ($2.500m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Matt Carle ($3.500m) / Brad Stuart ($2.750m)
Justin Braun ($1.250m) / Jason Demers ($1.250m)
GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Thomas Greiss ($0.588m)


Trade boyle for JVR and get what you can for murray.

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Old
04-29-2012, 06:40 PM
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
Well, a ton of chances relatively speaking. They kept us below our averages but we did well on our forecheck. It was our break out that allowed them to setup in the neutral zone that made us look worse than we played. But they'd get the lead and just get everyone behind the puck...our blue liners rarelwy pinched and didn't move the puck laterally, our system isn't just the three guys in offense.

Shooting into shin pads, constantly putting the puck into three blues players all contributed. But the initial forecheck looked good enough to my eyes. Our movement in the slot left a lot to be desired, because they'd overload puck pressure on our blue line and we wouldn't move into that space, ever.

If the rest of the NHL adopts that system, well id be worried, and I agree with you that there is a distinct lack of speed up there..but if that was the answer we'd keep Mitchell up there. As it stands and what we could get in returns or UFA, pavs is the lesser evil.

Still I'd rather roll out

Couture-Thornton-clowe
UFA/trade-marleau-havlat
Winnik-pavs-wingels
Galiardi-desjardins-Mitchell/sheppard

But the unfortunate fact is we need 2 top 6 additions if we move clowe...or a tweener, but in terms of what we could realistically get. I don't see much change. So pavs will stay up there out of necessity.
Mitchell has the same problems that Marleau has as a first fore-checker. He's not aware enough in the role to force turnovers and do something with the puck. Both of their anticipation levels leave a lot to be desired in that role. That's why they don't do well consistently. Michalek was the ideal fore-checker for Thornton. If there's anyone on this team that is the best fit right now for the role, I'd say it's Winnik. And the guy I feel has the potential to be a better fit is Galiardi. Both have finishing issues but that's where we're at here. Until they start adding a top six player that has good fore-checking abilities, they will be hindered in this regard.

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Old
04-29-2012, 06:44 PM
  #333
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I wouldn't be uncomfortable with wingels in that position if there was a top 6 in place of clowe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Mitchell has the same problems that Marleau has as a first fore-checker. He's not aware enough in the role to force turnovers and do something with the puck. Both of their anticipation levels leave a lot to be desired in that role. That's why they don't do well consistently. Michalek was the ideal fore-checker for Thornton. If there's anyone on this team that is the best fit right now for the role, I'd say it's Winnik. And the guy I feel has the potential to be a better fit is Galiardi. Both have finishing issues but that's where we're at here. Until they start adding a top six player that has good fore-checking abilities, they will be hindered in this regard.

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Old
04-29-2012, 07:08 PM
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Couture-Thornton-Clowe would be the single slowest line in the NHL.
lol, i thought for awhile that this line would be awesome.

and for fun, i used it on nhl 12 (not that nhl 12 is a realistic adaptation of what happens in real life). But the point is, that line was the slowest effing line, haha

my galiardi-marleau-havlat line was fast as hell though

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Old
04-29-2012, 07:10 PM
  #335
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Pavelski had the best faceoff percentage of on our team... i hope we put him back at center

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Old
04-29-2012, 07:10 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Dan Boyle isn't going to be on the bottom pairing. The guy is always going to get the most minutes out of anyone.
I never said Boyle would be on the bottom pairing, Boyle is our number 1 D. Burns will be in time but for now its Boyle 1 Burns 2, or at least 1a 1b. If we did sign Stuart I could see him either paired with Boyle or with Braun or Demers on the bottom. Stuart can play both sides.

We need to get more mobile and add back the scoring depth we lost in Heatley and Seto. Heatley for Havlat was great but we need another skilled scoring threat up front. At the time of the trades I was of the opinion that we needed another top 6 and that is still missing, that and a tweener type to fill the void Seto left. So basically we need two forwards and a d. Only forward in the top six that is expendable is Clowe and only if its to make room for a player who's increased skill and scoring makes up for the grit and puck control you would lose. On D Murray is the player that you can upgrade and probably get useful pieces back, though I wouldn't mind keeping him if DW can find a way to make the cap work for acquiring a top 6 forward.

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Old
04-29-2012, 07:18 PM
  #337
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Couture-Thornton-XXX
XXX-Marleau-Havlat
Winnik-Pavelski-Wingels
Galiardi-Desjardins-XXX

Or

Couture-Marleau-Havlat
XXX-Thornton-XXX
Same as above

I don't know, all I know is that we need a top-6 forward to replace Clowe and a tweener. What we really need is someone with good chemistry with Thornton, like Setoguchi. Couture and Marleau have a degree of chemistry with him, but I don't think that either of them can play RW and we need one of them for #2C, if we go with Pavelski as the #3C (incidentally, I always thought it was a giant mistake to move him into the top-6). I gueeessssss

Marleau-Thornton-Couture
XXX-Pavelski-Havlat

would be decent, but I still don't like it. We need depth, depth, and more depth.

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Old
04-29-2012, 07:34 PM
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KirbyDots View Post
I never said Boyle would be on the bottom pairing, Boyle is our number 1 D. Burns will be in time but for now its Boyle 1 Burns 2, or at least 1a 1b. If we did sign Stuart I could see him either paired with Boyle or with Braun or Demers on the bottom. Stuart can play both sides.

We need to get more mobile and add back the scoring depth we lost in Heatley and Seto. Heatley for Havlat was great but we need another skilled scoring threat up front. At the time of the trades I was of the opinion that we needed another top 6 and that is still missing, that and a tweener type to fill the void Seto left. So basically we need two forwards and a d. Only forward in the top six that is expendable is Clowe and only if its to make room for a player who's increased skill and scoring makes up for the grit and puck control you would lose. On D Murray is the player that you can upgrade and probably get useful pieces back, though I wouldn't mind keeping him if DW can find a way to make the cap work for acquiring a top 6 forward.
Stuart has been playing the right side ever since being a Red Wing. Asking him to play left is like asking Braun or Demers to do it. It will require time for them to get acclimated, if they ever do. Besides that, if Stuart's on the left, it doesn't address the lack of puck-moving ability on the left.

I agree that they need to add more scoring depth up front but they need to figure out what they want to do with the 3rd line...again. They need to add speed in the top six. And they need to figure out the PK. And the first thing they have to ask themselves really is how to address the PK. The reason why is because that is a coaching thing. And when you impact the coaching area, you impact everything else and need to figure out how to build your team to suit the system you're running.

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Old
04-29-2012, 07:36 PM
  #339
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are we a soft team if we move clowe?

Is it okay to be soft as long as we're fast?

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Old
04-29-2012, 07:38 PM
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Man in the Mirror View Post
are we a soft team if we move clowe?

Is it okay to be soft as long as we're fast?
One guy doesn't make a team soft or tough. If we're soft now, moving Clowe won't change that and vice-versa if we're tough.

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Old
04-29-2012, 08:54 PM
  #341
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Speed for speeds sake should also be avoided. Saavy draft day deals and a system/line up restructure will probably be the most likely course of action, I don't see us competing for any top 6 UFA. The bottom six as good as they were down the stretch are still technically in limbo, and we don't know what we have with sheppard. If DW gets a green light on his ability maybe he slots in at 3/4 C. But galiardi is a ? For me as is Moore. So I could see us going after UFAs in that regard.

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Old
04-29-2012, 09:07 PM
  #342
Gene Parmesan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
Speed for speeds sake should also be avoided. Saavy draft day deals and a system/line up restructure will probably be the most likely course of action, I don't see us competing for any top 6 UFA. The bottom six as good as they were down the stretch are still technically in limbo, and we don't know what we have with sheppard. If DW gets a green light on his ability maybe he slots in at 3/4 C. But galiardi is a ? For me as is Moore. So I could see us going after UFAs in that regard.
Exactly. They need to bring more than just speed. We don't need a bunch of Torrey Mitchell's skating over pucks and shanking shots. Thats why the speed/skill guys are hard to pry out of anyones hands.

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Old
04-29-2012, 09:09 PM
  #343
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***The Likeliest Line-Up For Next Year***

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR ROSTER

FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Daniel Winnik ($2.333m) / Michal Handzus ($2.500m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.900m)
T.J. Galiardi ($0.750m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.850m) / Benn Ferriero ($0.700m)
James Sheppard ($0.750m) /

DEFENSEMEN
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Justin Braun ($1.250m) / Dan Boyle ($6.667m)
Douglas Murray ($2.500m) / Jason Demers ($1.250m)
Jim Vandermeer ($1.000m) /

GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Thomas Greiss ($0.588m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,097,167; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $202,833

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Old
04-29-2012, 09:14 PM
  #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillermiller89 View Post
***The Likeliest Line-Up For Next Year***

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR ROSTER

FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Daniel Winnik ($2.333m) / Michal Handzus ($2.500m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.900m)
T.J. Galiardi ($0.750m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.850m) / Benn Ferriero ($0.700m)
James Sheppard ($0.750m) /

DEFENSEMEN
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Justin Braun ($1.250m) / Dan Boyle ($6.667m)
Douglas Murray ($2.500m) / Jason Demers ($1.250m)
Jim Vandermeer ($1.000m) /

GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Thomas Greiss ($0.588m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,097,167; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $202,833
Im sure they will find someone better than Benny.

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Old
04-29-2012, 09:50 PM
  #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillermiller89 View Post
***The Likeliest Line-Up For Next Year***

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR ROSTER

FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Daniel Winnik ($2.333m) / Michal Handzus ($2.500m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.900m)
T.J. Galiardi ($0.750m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.850m) / Benn Ferriero ($0.700m)
James Sheppard ($0.750m) /

DEFENSEMEN
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Justin Braun ($1.250m) / Dan Boyle ($6.667m)
Douglas Murray ($2.500m) / Jason Demers ($1.250m)
Jim Vandermeer ($1.000m) /

GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Thomas Greiss ($0.588m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,097,167; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $202,833
You really think the most likely scenario for next season is DW NOT making any moves after a fast first round exit? I think trading Marleau is more likely than that.

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Old
04-29-2012, 10:00 PM
  #346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillermiller89 View Post
***The Likeliest Line-Up For Next Year***

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR ROSTER

FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Daniel Winnik ($2.333m) / Michal Handzus ($2.500m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.900m)
T.J. Galiardi ($0.750m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.850m) / Benn Ferriero ($0.700m)
James Sheppard ($0.750m) /

DEFENSEMEN
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Justin Braun ($1.250m) / Dan Boyle ($6.667m)
Douglas Murray ($2.500m) / Jason Demers ($1.250m)
Jim Vandermeer ($1.000m) /

GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Thomas Greiss ($0.588m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,097,167; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $202,833

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Old
04-29-2012, 10:05 PM
  #347
do0glas
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Looks like a definite 2 seed team to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillermiller89 View Post
***The Likeliest Line-Up For Next Year***

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR ROSTER

FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Daniel Winnik ($2.333m) / Michal Handzus ($2.500m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.900m)
T.J. Galiardi ($0.750m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.850m) / Benn Ferriero ($0.700m)
James Sheppard ($0.750m) /

DEFENSEMEN
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Justin Braun ($1.250m) / Dan Boyle ($6.667m)
Douglas Murray ($2.500m) / Jason Demers ($1.250m)
Jim Vandermeer ($1.000m) /

GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Thomas Greiss ($0.588m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,097,167; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $202,833

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Old
04-29-2012, 10:25 PM
  #348
murdock1116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Man in the Mirror View Post
are we a soft team if we move clowe?

Is it okay to be soft as long as we're fast?
We're already a soft team.

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Old
04-29-2012, 10:29 PM
  #349
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Can anyone give any insight on sheppard? Is there actually any chance he's a viable NHL option? I know he was a 9th overall and hes still young but I havent heard anything too promising...

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Old
04-29-2012, 10:41 PM
  #350
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Ive grown to keeping Marleau. But not as throntons LW. He has to be the #2 center if he stays. Couture-Marleau-Havlat is an excellent line #2.

But Pavelski and Clowe are HORRIBLE wingers for Thorntons and both must be traded if Marleau is kept IMO.

Murray, Boyle, pavelski, Clowe are all very good pieces to trade off to get young, more physical and quicker.

Trade Clowe+Murray to Toronto for Kulemin+Biggs+2nd

Trade Pavelski +1st + Tor 2nd + #55 to Chicago for Patty Kane

Trade Boyle to the NYI for Nino + Bailey + mid lvl prospect
Kulemin-Thornton-Patty Kane
Couture-Marleau-Havlat
Winnik-Bailey- FA RW
Galliardi-Desjardins-Wingels

Vlasic-Burns
Carle-Stuart
Braun-Demers

Niemi
Greiss

No idea if these work cap wise, or if the other teams accept these trades (especially the Kane one, CHI does need a good 2nd line C though)

Nino goes to the minors, Biggs stays in NCAA,

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