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"The Greiss is Always Greener" (Off-Season Speculation Part II)

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Old
04-26-2012, 10:51 PM
  #126
Pinkfloyd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinTheBlackCircle View Post
A team that trades for Marleau is a team that wants to compete for the Cup. That doesn't describe anyone with a top 5 pick. Those 5 want young players, not a guy that has 2 years left on a deal where he will be 35 after it's expired.
I would disagree. Toronto certainly WANTS to compete for the Cup and Burke has done many things attempting to do that. I would also say Montreal is a team in a similar boat.

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04-26-2012, 11:01 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
I would disagree. Toronto certainly WANTS to compete for the Cup and Burke has done many things attempting to do that. I would also say Montreal is a team in a similar boat.
They would be dumb, because they ain't close. It would be a desperate move. I hope it happens.

I was thinking teams that got bounced early like Vancouver/Boston/Chicago/Detroit.

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Old
04-26-2012, 11:07 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by SpinTheBlackCircle View Post
They would be dumb, because they ain't close. It would be a desperate move. I hope it happens.

I was thinking teams that got bounced early like Vancouver/Boston/Chicago/Detroit.
Would you really put it past them? lol

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04-26-2012, 11:08 PM
  #129
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No, I wouldn't. Guess I was trying to be logical.

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Old
04-26-2012, 11:11 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by SpinTheBlackCircle View Post
No, I wouldn't. Guess I was trying to be logical.
If it were anywhere but Montreal and Toronto, I would follow the same path but pressure is a ***** in those towns. lol

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04-26-2012, 11:20 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by SpinTheBlackCircle View Post
couldn't get that much
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinTheBlackCircle View Post
A team that trades for Marleau is a team that wants to compete for the Cup. That doesn't describe anyone with a top 5 pick. Those 5 want young players, not a guy that has 2 years left on a deal where he will be 35 after it's expired.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
I would disagree. Toronto certainly WANTS to compete for the Cup and Burke has done many things attempting to do that. I would also say Montreal is a team in a similar boat.
Little late to the conversation here, but Marleau should easily return a top-5 pick, plus some. For some reason over the last year or two people have seriously underestimated the value of elite players (like Kovy for instance, who Marleau is a better player than imo) who still have multiple years left on their contracts. Marleau is for instance, without a doubt, a better player than Rick Nash offensively and deffensively, and paid less.

That is of course assuming there IS a window in his NMC, otherwise it's all pointless.

Also, we shouldn't trade Marleau. Anything short of Yukapov and we are worse team short term (but better long term probably).

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Old
04-26-2012, 11:39 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swervin81 View Post
As much as Marleau is wearing me out, he and Havlat are the only speedy players on the team and there is no substitution for speed.
That's not even close to true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Collberg is the guy I want. He's out-producing Forsberg in international competition right now. Quick, great hands, game breaker. Only knock is his size, but that was the knock on Giroux, etc. as well.
Is it a big deal to outproduce Forsberg right now?

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Originally Posted by Eighth Fret View Post
Ovie would be a huge mistake. The guy is a complete liability defensively and tries too hard to make the individual play on offense. No thanks.
No way, no how, ever. If you can get Ovechkin and pair him with Thornton you do it a million times out of a million. We have more than enough two-way forwards to accept one that is more offensively focused, let alone one of the best offensive players in the game. It would be like having two Thorntons out there, you never turn that down if it's possible, never.

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04-26-2012, 11:42 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
Is it a big deal to outproduce Forsberg right now?
Well, kinda yeah. Considering they're playing on the same team. I'm not trying to say that Collberg will be better than Forsberg or anything like it, but that the kid certainly has offensive pop. I've seen comparisons to Cammalleri and Skinner.

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Old
04-27-2012, 12:16 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
That's not even close to true.
It actually isn't. People can try and fight it with saying anticipation and awareness and all of that but the reality of the matter is that those things only level the playing field if someone with speed doesn't have it themselves.

Speed will always be a gamebreaker just because in certain instances, it's a matter of who's quicker to a spot on the ice or to the puck.

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04-27-2012, 12:17 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post


No way, no how, ever. If you can get Ovechkin and pair him with Thornton you do it a million times out of a million. We have more than enough two-way forwards to accept one that is more offensively focused, let alone one of the best offensive players in the game. It would be like having two Thorntons out there, you never turn that down if it's possible, never.
Thornton is a faaaar more complete player than Ovie. Did you watch the Bruins/Caps series? Poor decisions in the offensive zone, horrible in his own zone, and gave the Bruins some great chances due to lazy backchecking. We already have a hard enough time getting back due to our low cycle and lack of speed.

And yes, Marleau, and Havlat are our only fast forwards. It's not even up for debate. Burns and Braun are the only speed we have on the blueline.

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04-27-2012, 12:20 AM
  #136
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Boyle's pretty quick himself so i wouldn't say all the speed on the blueline is from Braun and Burns.

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Old
04-27-2012, 12:23 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eighth Fret View Post
Thornton is a faaaar more complete player than Ovie. Did you watch the Bruins/Caps series? Poor decisions in the offensive zone, horrible in his own zone, and gave the Bruins some great chances due to lazy backchecking. We already have a hard enough time getting back due to our low cycle and lack of speed.

And yes, Marleau, and Havlat are our only fast forwards. It's not even up for debate. Burns and Braun are the only speed we have on the blueline.
I'm assuming you mean top-6...

Cause this season we had Galiardi, Winnik, Moore, Desjardins, Wingels all in the regular lineup, and all are 'fast'.

Point is correct though, we need high speed players in our top-6, and we only have two, and people want to trade one? pass.

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04-27-2012, 12:39 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
Boyle's pretty quick himself so i wouldn't say all the speed on the blueline is from Braun and Burns.
Quick isn't necessarily fast, though I do agree that Boyle is quick. He's only going to get slower from here on out though.

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04-27-2012, 01:38 AM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
It actually isn't. People can try and fight it with saying anticipation and awareness and all of that but the reality of the matter is that those things only level the playing field if someone with speed doesn't have it themselves.

Speed will always be a gamebreaker just because in certain instances, it's a matter of who's quicker to a spot on the ice or to the puck.
I think the idea is that speed is not a substitution fo skill, but that speed and skill will beat skill alone.

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Old
04-27-2012, 02:02 AM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eighth Fret View Post
Thornton is a faaaar more complete player than Ovie. Did you watch the Bruins/Caps series? Poor decisions in the offensive zone, horrible in his own zone, and gave the Bruins some great chances due to lazy backchecking. We already have a hard enough time getting back due to our low cycle and lack of speed.
Yes and we have Thornton, so putting him with Ovechkin ... my god. AND Thornton wasn't always as complete as he is now, so we know our coaching staff if nothing else can teach offensive superstars defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I'm assuming you mean top-6...
Why assume? They said what they said. If they're gonna exaggerate, they should be called on it.

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Old
04-27-2012, 02:02 AM
  #141
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In the offseason the Sharks biggest needs will to determine if they are going with the Line 3A/3B or go with the traditional 3rd and 4th lines, giving the 4th line the standard 5-8 minutes. I much prefer the 3A/3B option that reduces the top six minutes and spreads the team out much better. For all the slow dinosaurs the Sharks have its best to keep them rested throughout the season.

The Sharks are going to need a PK centermen, a 3rd/4th line RW player who can forecheck aggressively and be a pest, and LH 4/5 defenseman.

FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
T.J. Galiardi ($0.900m) / Jarret Stoll ($2.750m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.660m)
Daniel Winnik ($2.000m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.600m) / Joey Crabb ($1.500m)
DEFENSEMEN
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Brad Stuart ($2.500m) / Dan Boyle ($6.667m)
Jason Demers ($1.250m) / Justin Braun ($1.250m)
GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Thomas Greiss ($0.588m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,724,167; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $1,575,833

-Buyout Handzus
-Trade D. Murray
-Target Jarret Stoll, Joey Crabb, Brad Stuart (thinking he would sign cheap to play in SJ)
-Other UFA RW's that can fill that bottom 6; Brandon Yip & Jordin Tootoo (2 tough players that play the game hard)
-I would like to see Demers moved out for another LH defenseman, but he seemed comfortable playing on the left side during his limited time.
-Pay increases go to the RFA's Braun will get the same deal as Demers. Wingels, Dejardins, and Galiardi all get 1 year deals.

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Old
04-27-2012, 02:11 AM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eighth Fret View Post
Quick isn't necessarily fast, though I do agree that Boyle is quick. He's only going to get slower from here on out though.
I thought Justin Braun was pretty fast


Oops didnt see someone already put that

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Old
04-27-2012, 02:28 AM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
Yes and we have Thornton, so putting him with Ovechkin ... my god. AND Thornton wasn't always as complete as he is now, so we know our coaching staff if nothing else can teach offensive superstars defense.

.

A large part of that was Thornton himself taking responsibility. After we lost to the Hawks Jumbo approached TMac and asked how he could be better. I think he also asked him some questions about Datsyuk.

Ovechkin on this team would be a disaster. If you watched Ovie play these days you'd see why, but you're likely just going off of his reputation and career stats. He also has a 9.5mm cap hit. I'm sorry, but that's just a ****ing absurd cap hit for someone who is not going to be responsible in his own zone.

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04-27-2012, 02:37 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post



Why assume? They said what they said. If they're gonna exaggerate, they should be called on it.
It's not exaggeration. The top 6 is where you need the speed.

And if you really think we have more than two legitimately fast players in our top 6, then it makes sense why you also think we played good hockey in February.

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04-27-2012, 03:30 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Eighth Fret View Post
It's not exaggeration.
Again: "As much as Marleau is wearing me out, he and Havlat are the only speedy players on the team and there is no substitution for speed."

We were playing far better hockey in February than our record reflected. Far, far better.

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Old
04-27-2012, 06:56 AM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftDumpInTheCorner View Post
In the offseason the Sharks biggest needs will to determine if they are going with the Line 3A/3B or go with the traditional 3rd and 4th lines, giving the 4th line the standard 5-8 minutes. I much prefer the 3A/3B option that reduces the top six minutes and spreads the team out much better. For all the slow dinosaurs the Sharks have its best to keep them rested throughout the season.

The Sharks are going to need a PK centermen, a 3rd/4th line RW player who can forecheck aggressively and be a pest, and LH 4/5 defenseman.

FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
T.J. Galiardi ($0.900m) / Jarret Stoll ($2.750m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.660m)
Daniel Winnik ($2.000m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.600m) / Joey Crabb ($1.500m)
DEFENSEMEN
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Brad Stuart ($2.500m) / Dan Boyle ($6.667m)
Jason Demers ($1.250m) / Justin Braun ($1.250m)
GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Thomas Greiss ($0.588m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,724,167; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $1,575,833

-Buyout Handzus
-Trade D. Murray
-Target Jarret Stoll, Joey Crabb, Brad Stuart (thinking he would sign cheap to play in SJ)
-Other UFA RW's that can fill that bottom 6; Brandon Yip & Jordin Tootoo (2 tough players that play the game hard)
-I would like to see Demers moved out for another LH defenseman, but he seemed comfortable playing on the left side during his limited time.
-Pay increases go to the RFA's Braun will get the same deal as Demers. Wingels, Dejardins, and Galiardi all get 1 year deals.
With that low of a cap payroll, there isn't much point to buying out Handzus. We'll have plenty of space.

According to Wings fans, Stuart is better as a right dman.

What did you trade Murray for? A pick?

Otherwise, overall, that lineup bores me. I wouldn't get very excited for the season. It'd just be more of the same.

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04-27-2012, 07:33 AM
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eighth Fret View Post
Ovechkin on this team would be a disaster. If you watched Ovie play these days you'd see why, but you're likely just going off of his reputation and career stats. He also has a 9.5mm cap hit. I'm sorry, but that's just a ****ing absurd cap hit for someone who is not going to be responsible in his own zone.
You acutally think having Ovi on the Sharks would be a disaster???

The only disaster there would be his cap hit.

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Old
04-27-2012, 08:28 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Gilligans Island View Post
With that low of a cap payroll, there isn't much point to buying out Handzus. We'll have plenty of space.

According to Wings fans, Stuart is better as a right dman.

What did you trade Murray for? A pick?

Otherwise, overall, that lineup bores me. I wouldn't get very excited for the season. It'd just be more of the same.
Yah, and obviously DW is going to make bigger changes then that. We might as well tank next season if that's the roster because it's depressing.

We actually take a step BACK in speed from the end of the season (Moore is faster than Stoll) heh. We don't need any PK specialists, that has nothing to do with why our PK stunk. I thought people would have figured that out when we added Moore, Winnik, and Galiardi and our PK continued to be terrible.

I'm fairly happy with the bottom-6, maybe just a replacement for Moore if he won't stay and as long as we re-sign Winnik, i'm fine with what we've got there.

We need to make our major changes in the top-6 and possibly goal-tending. Replacing Murray with Stuart as well of course.

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Old
04-27-2012, 01:22 PM
  #149
Eighth Fret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
Again: "As much as Marleau is wearing me out, he and Havlat are the only speedy players on the team and there is no substitution for speed."

We were playing far better hockey in February than our record reflected. Far, far better.
Except hockeyball was quoting me when he assumed I was talking about top 6 speed, and I never said that.

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Old
04-27-2012, 01:58 PM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eighth Fret View Post
Except hockeyball was quoting me when he assumed I was talking about top 6 speed, and I never said that.
Swervin81 said that, word for word, in an original (not quoted) post, which I responded to, which is what you responded to. You said the exact same thing and even added an exaggeration on defense: "And yes, Marleau, and Havlat are our only fast forwards. It's not even up for debate. Burns and Braun are the only speed we have on the blueline."

You overexaggerated to try to reinforce your point and got called on it, just admit it and dial back the rhetoric.

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