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I want a defensive powerhouse

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Old
05-04-2012, 01:59 PM
  #226
Ogelthorpe
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
I know I already showed how important defense is by showing six out of the eight teams left were top 10 in the league but here is another telling stat...

Top 10 offense in the regular season...
1.Pens-Out first round
2.Flyers-Still in it
3.Boston-Out first round
4.Ottawa-Out first round
5.Nucks-Out first round
6.Hawks-Out first round
7.Wings-Out first round
8.Preds-Still in it but also top 10 in defense
9.Lightning-Didn't make playoffs
10.Leafs-Didn't make playoffs

Being good defensively is more important than scoring tons of goals
I will agree to some extent, but not totally. There is a balance that can be found between a defensive powerhouse and an offensive juggernaut. I think 09 was a great example. We were a strong offensive team that played responsibly in the D zone and eliminated a lot of turnovers in key areas of the ice.

We need to get back to that, and mostly because we are not built for a complete defensive game. We have some of the best offensive weapons in hockey, and we should play to our strengths to some degree.

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05-04-2012, 02:04 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by gordie View Post
Good defensive play is a product of good coaching.
I will also agree to this to an extent. There is an element of system and game plan that goes into this. However, no matter what a coach may or may not do, it is up to the players to make smart decisions and execute the game plan. Even the best laid plans can be totally ruined by a player's poor execution and decision making!

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05-04-2012, 02:05 PM
  #228
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I think you have to tone down your attack in the playoffs. You have to play a more stripped down gritty game.

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05-04-2012, 02:39 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
I think you have to tone down your attack in the playoffs. You have to play a more stripped down gritty game.
In other words, be opportunistic and pick your spots.

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05-04-2012, 02:54 PM
  #230
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It's easy to see this team is way too aggressive in it's own zone. Too much chasing leading to break downs. You are never going to out chase the offense in the defensive zone which is why every good team has moved towards a conservative zone defense.

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05-04-2012, 03:55 PM
  #231
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Defensive "power houses" that were Cup champions.
Regular season ranks
2010-11 Bruins 2nd
2009-10 Hawks 6th
2007-08 Wings 1st
2006-08 Ducks 7th
2002-03 Devils 2nd
2001-02 Aves 1st
2000-01 Devils 6th
1999-00 Stars 2nd

The Bruins, Hawks, & Wings were also top 5 in offense as well. So it's not a either or scenario.

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05-04-2012, 04:48 PM
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Defensive "power houses" that were Cup champions.
Regular season ranks
2010-11 Bruins 2nd
2009-10 Hawks 6th
2007-08 Wings 1st
2006-08 Ducks 7th
2002-03 Devils 2nd
2001-02 Aves 1st
2000-01 Devils 6th
1999-00 Stars 2nd

The Bruins, Hawks, & Wings were also top 5 in offense as well. So it's not a either or scenario.
I'm not sure your point other than stating the obvious that defense is extremely important.

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05-04-2012, 04:53 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
I'm not sure your point other than stating the obvious that defense is extremely important.
That's the point.

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05-04-2012, 04:54 PM
  #234
Ogelthorpe
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Defensive "power houses" that were Cup champions.
Regular season ranks
2010-11 Bruins 2nd
2009-10 Hawks 6th
2007-08 Wings 1st
2006-08 Ducks 7th
2002-03 Devils 2nd
2001-02 Aves 1st
2000-01 Devils 6th
1999-00 Stars 2nd

The Bruins, Hawks, & Wings were also top 5 in offense as well. So it's not a either or scenario.
You might as well throw out everything pre-lockout....clutch and grab era was a way different game.

You are also making my point about finding a balance. Every team you mention except Anaheim was also a pretty offensive team as well. You also fail to mention that since each of those teams have won the cup, that they too have all been seeing early playoff exits, except the Wings in 09'. You don't hear this massive outcry in those cities that Babcock, Quenville, and Julien need to be fired!

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05-04-2012, 05:10 PM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
You might as well throw out everything pre-lockout....clutch and grab era was a way different game.

You are also making my point about finding a balance. Every team you mention except Anaheim was also a pretty offensive team as well. You also fail to mention that since each of those teams have won the cup, that they too have all been seeing early playoff exits, except the Wings in 09'. You don't hear this massive outcry in those cities that Babcock, Quenville, and Julien need to be fired!
Clutch and grab isn't gone by any stretch and teams know that obstruction tactics have been creeping back and are still successful, although there is a greater emphasis and need for mobility now than pre-lockout.

I think for next season, the Penguins will have more than enough balance offensively, while still having flexibility to add a piece or two. Defense and penalty killing is what needs re-evaluated.

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05-04-2012, 05:31 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Mister Ed View Post
Clutch and grab isn't gone by any stretch and teams know that obstruction tactics have been creeping back and are still successful, although there is a greater emphasis and need for mobility now than pre-lockout.

I think for next season, the Penguins will have more than enough balance offensively, while still having flexibility to add a piece or two. Defense and penalty killing is what needs re-evaluated.
I agree with this. I would like to see Ray make a move to bring in a Rob Scuderi type D-man. A guy who may not block a ton of shots, isn't the best puck mover, but always is in the right position, super smart in his own zone, crafty, and kills penalties.

Kings get
Staal/Martin/Bortuzzo

Pens get
Scuderi/Brown

Thoughts?

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05-04-2012, 05:48 PM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
I agree with this. I would like to see Ray make a move to bring in a Rob Scuderi type D-man. A guy who may not block a ton of shots, isn't the best puck mover, but always is in the right position, super smart in his own zone, crafty, and kills penalties.

Kings get
Staal/Martin/Bortuzzo

Pens get
Scuderi/Brown

Thoughts?

LA no longer needs a center now.

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Old
05-07-2012, 03:34 PM
  #238
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Id like to see us make a move for Gleason .
Believe it or not Martin is a good dman. This team just does not work to his strengths. We really need to look to move him.

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05-07-2012, 04:53 PM
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Defensive "power houses" that were Cup champions.
Regular season ranks
2010-11 Bruins 2nd
2009-10 Hawks 6th
2007-08 Wings 1st
2006-08 Ducks 7th
2002-03 Devils 2nd
2001-02 Aves 1st
2000-01 Devils 6th
1999-00 Stars 2nd

The Bruins, Hawks, & Wings were also top 5 in offense as well. So it's not a either or scenario.
Every cup winner post-lockout was in top 8 in offense.

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05-07-2012, 05:31 PM
  #240
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Staal and PIT 2012 1st for Luke Schenn and TOR 2012 1st

Thoughts? Pens could add someone like Strait to the deal if needed. Both teams fill a big need though. Pens get a big physical stay at home defenseman which they so desperately need and you could probably partner him with someone like Joe Morrow in the near future. And you can use the 5th overall on a good forward prospect like Galchenyuk/Forsberg possibly.

Letang/Orpik
Schenn/Morrow
Despres/Niskanen

Looks like a very balanced defense, each pairing has a stay at home D with a puck moving D.

(of course this is after trading away Martin,Michalek for a bag of pucks...)

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05-07-2012, 05:54 PM
  #241
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Terrible for the Pens.

Morrow is 99% most likely NOT playing with us next year.

But let me ask this...you wanna get rid our second pairing of M&M andreplace them with Schenn and a rookie...okay gotcha...whoa...

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05-07-2012, 06:31 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by SEALBound View Post
Terrible for the Pens.

Morrow is 99% most likely NOT playing with us next year.

But let me ask this...you wanna get rid our second pairing of M&M andreplace them with Schenn and a rookie...okay gotcha...whoa...
Sadly, I don't think Schenn and Morrow would do any worse than M&M did last year (just my opinion though), while saving around 4-5 million in cap space per year that you can use to resign some guys and get a 3rd line center.

If they feel Morrow isn't ready after traning camp, they can still use Engelland for one more year.

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05-07-2012, 07:35 PM
  #243
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I think Luke Schenn would do well here.

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05-07-2012, 07:48 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
I think Luke Schenn would do well here.
I like Shenn. Any Thoughts on a Shenn-Michalek D pair. Maybe with another solid stay at home D-Man, Michalek could become the shot blocking shutdown D-man we imagined him becoming.

We would have to trade Martin, which I think will be a lot easier than most people believe, and D will look something like

Letang-Orpik
Shenn-Michalek
Niskanen-Despres
Engo

Thoughts?

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05-07-2012, 08:09 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
Every cup winner post-lockout was in top 8 in offense.
And we are the only team that where not top of anything defensively to win the cup. It hasn't worked since. Maybe it's time to start playing defense. Not to mention a the stats are skewed because of the coaching change when we started playing better.

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05-07-2012, 08:56 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Mama Malkin View Post
Sadly, I don't think Schenn and Morrow would do any worse than M&M did last year (just my opinion though), while saving around 4-5 million in cap space per year that you can use to resign some guys and get a 3rd line center.

If they feel Morrow isn't ready after traning camp, they can still use Engelland for one more year.
You know, I'm not exactly a fan when it comes to the coaching staff's evaluation of when a player is ready for training camp. Despres should have stuck for at least a 10 game cup of coffee last year. Morrow should have stuck for a 10 game cup of coffee this year, especially with Orpik out. Heck, going into the 2009-2010 season, Tangradi should have stuck (at least to open the season).

Maybe this isn't fair, but I look at how this coaching staff looks at young, talented, but raw players, and I wonder if Bylsma had been the coach in 2006-2007 whether Staal would have spent that season in juniors and whether Letang would've gotten that 6 game cup of coffee.

Englland isn't the answer. He's a 7/8 guy. You go with Morrow if he earns it again next year like he did this year. Maybe he kills it. Maybe he gets overwhelmed. If the latter happens, then you make a deadline rental (not like guys like Grossman aren't available every year . . . ****, this year, I said trade Martin for a winger and use Despres and then rent a fallback like Grossman that would have cost you a 2nd and a middling prospect).

Anyway, I just don't have the greatest faith in the world when it comes to the coaching staff in this regard (personally, I think the lack of faith is well-deserved) . . .

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05-07-2012, 09:22 PM
  #247
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Engelland is fine as our No. 6. He needs to do some more fighting though. We needed him to play too much this past season. I like him better when he's an ornery mofo.

Engelland is only our No. 8 if we're rating our defensemen by salary. This is the problem with bringing back the three underachieving vets. The younger D are better than they are. The depth guys are better as depth guys. So, if they bring them back, we'll have the status quo...and we won't go anywhere.

I firmly believe this defense corps will improve this off-season simply by subtraction. We need to weed out the underachievers and start using the young talent we've been stockpiling for so long. I suppose there are many reasons why Shero stockpiled. He probably never expected that the best way to use the depth is to replace the older guys all at the same time with the kids...but if that's what it takes to get better, then that's what we should do.

Tell Bylsma to suck it if he doesn't like playing the kids.

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05-08-2012, 08:55 AM
  #248
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No one is here saying that defense isn't really all that good. They're arguing against the notion that in order to play good defense you need to tear the offense apart.

Which of our 'offensive' forwards plays bad defense? Crosby and Malkin (Malkin when he cares, that is) are not Ovechkin, they've proven they can be effective defensively. Dupuis is a career grinder and PKer who scored 58 points. Kunitz and Neal are prototypical physical wingers, if Tangradi turns into a Kunitz clone we should count ourselves lucky. Staal is a Selke nominee, Kennedy is no slouch himself. So that leaves... Sullivan?

Would you say the issue is with Letang? There were 3 Penguins defensemen who didn't look awful, and he was one of them (aside from the dives). The problem is with the defensive defensemen clearly not pulling their weight. Martin and Orpik were mind-bogglingly awful, and Michalek wasn't good.

The other problem is with coaching. We know that Bylsma can coach a defensive team, he just refused to after the winning streak. Straight up refused to change anything, because that would prove him wrong and his pride couldn't take it. Same reason we had 5 forwards on the powerplay even though we gave up more shorthanded goals in that span than any other team in the league. For a while we had let in more shorthanded goals than we'd scored powerplay goals. But Bylsma couldn't change it, because the 5 forward powerplay was his idea, and he was too arrogant and prideful to admit defeat.

Simply put, the reason the defense is terrible is not because the offense is good.

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05-08-2012, 10:07 AM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Jill Sandwich View Post
No one is here saying that defense isn't really all that good. They're arguing against the notion that in order to play good defense you need to tear the offense apart.

Which of our 'offensive' forwards plays bad defense? Crosby and Malkin (Malkin when he cares, that is) are not Ovechkin, they've proven they can be effective defensively. Dupuis is a career grinder and PKer who scored 58 points. Kunitz and Neal are prototypical physical wingers, if Tangradi turns into a Kunitz clone we should count ourselves lucky. Staal is a Selke nominee, Kennedy is no slouch himself. So that leaves... Sullivan?

Would you say the issue is with Letang? There were 3 Penguins defensemen who didn't look awful, and he was one of them (aside from the dives). The problem is with the defensive defensemen clearly not pulling their weight. Martin and Orpik were mind-bogglingly awful, and Michalek wasn't good.

The other problem is with coaching. We know that Bylsma can coach a defensive team, he just refused to after the winning streak. Straight up refused to change anything, because that would prove him wrong and his pride couldn't take it. Same reason we had 5 forwards on the powerplay even though we gave up more shorthanded goals in that span than any other team in the league. For a while we had let in more shorthanded goals than we'd scored powerplay goals. But Bylsma couldn't change it, because the 5 forward powerplay was his idea, and he was too arrogant and prideful to admit defeat.

Simply put, the reason the defense is terrible is not because the offense is good.
Letang was horrible defensively in these playoffs. Terrible giveaways in his own end & poor passes out of the defensive zone. I don't know why everyone is giving him a pass. The guy is a dynamic player but his playoff performance defensively was just as bad as all the others you mentioned.

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05-08-2012, 10:35 AM
  #250
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Engelland is fine as our No. 6. He needs to do some more fighting though. We needed him to play too much this past season. I like him better when he's an ornery mofo.

Engelland is only our No. 8 if we're rating our defensemen by salary. This is the problem with bringing back the three underachieving vets. The younger D are better than they are. The depth guys are better as depth guys. So, if they bring them back, we'll have the status quo...and we won't go anywhere.

I firmly believe this defense corps will improve this off-season simply by subtraction. We need to weed out the underachievers and start using the young talent we've been stockpiling for so long. I suppose there are many reasons why Shero stockpiled. He probably never expected that the best way to use the depth is to replace the older guys all at the same time with the kids...but if that's what it takes to get better, then that's what we should do.

Tell Bylsma to suck it if he doesn't like playing the kids.
Englland is fine as a regular season #6. A playoff #6? We'll have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid . . .

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